Lars,
Have you ever used dried milk? Do you know if you have the stomach reactions when you use it in recipes? I use dried milk in bread recipes all the time. Just add in the dried milk (1/3 c.) to the dry ingredients and 1 cup water with the wet ingredients for each cup of milk called for in the recipe. And you don't have to worry about warming up the milk if you use dried milk in bread making, you can just use warm water instead.

Milk helps bread to be more tender, softer, and helps with the keeping properties. I would think you could use soy milk or rice milk instead of cow's milk in most baking. I think yogurt can be used as a substitution for milk in many recipes.

The scalding of milk hangs on from the days before pasteurization when bacteria in milk would inhibit the growth of the yeast.

Hope this helps,
Teresa

Teresa, I haven't tried dried milk yet, but I'm a bit leery of that, since cooked or baked milk is just as bad. I can't even eat crackers that have been made with milk. I can, however, eat things made with buttermilk, even if it hasn't been dried.

DB and I are going to Rkenwagner's Café and Bakery for his birthday brunch today, and I just noticed that it has moved from Main St in Santa Monica (very close to us) to Abbot Kinney in Venice - practically walking distance now. I will be tempted to get croissants and rye bread there, although I don't see pumpernickel on the menu. After I see the prices, I may have a change of heart.

Lars

You don't have to use milk....just use water. You may not have as tender a crumb....but I would think that would be a fair trade off for being able to eat it without upset.
Linda C

If you are lactose intolerant, you can often use higher fat dairy foods in moderation (you've experienced that because you are able to use butter). The higher the fat content, the lower the lactose - so think cream or half & half diluted with some water. Non-fat dry milk is a high-lactose product, so I'd avoid it.

There's less lactose in yogurt (because it's been fermented and the milk sugar - lactose - has been consumed by the good bacteria) - you can often substitute yogurt for milk. Just stir it until the curd is liquified.

Another substitute that might work well for you is goat milk. It's readily available in the dairy section in 1-quart cartons. It freezes well. You could make 1- or 2-T. amounts in an ice cube tray and thaw in amounts you need. Lactose-free milk is another option.

I make homemade kefir (milk of choice and real kefir grains = kefir), and there is even less lactose in it than in yogurt and and the small amount of remaing lactose is very digestible. I use kefir as a substitute for buttermilk, plain yogurt, sour cream, cream cheese and even cottage cheese. It depends on how long I ferment it and how long I drain the whey from the curd.

A low-lactose product I've used for many years is a whey-based milk substitute called Morning Moo's (see link below).

The minerals in dairy products help with the yeast growth and activity. Lactose in milk is NOT used by yeast (even though it's a "sugar"). Lactose is left in the loaf as residual sugar to give the bread a slight edge on a sweet taste. Lactose also tenderizes and moistens for a softer, moister crumb and adds flavor to the loaf and color to the crust.

I have to disagree with Teresa about scalding milk. It's not just an old-fashioned notion from the days when people used fresh milk. It has a cause and effect in today's world of bread making.

According to CookWise by Shirley O. Corriher (page 80), there is an enzyme in the whey protein of milk (as well as non-fat dried milk powder) that can cause bread problems. "Too much milk in bread can affect the volume, symmetry, cellular structure, and texture of bread (because of this enzyme). Treating milk (even commercially homogenized/pasteurized milk) by heating and holding it at about 180°F to 190°F over a period of time (scalding) overcomes the undesirable property to a certain degree when it is used in the conventional system of bread-making."

I experienced this first hand when I tried to make a high-protein bread by adding large amounts of whey protein. What pitiful loaves.... Then I understood what was happening when I read CookWise. Even some recipes for Dill Bread that have large amounts of cottage cheese in them are affected by the enzyme in the dairy product. These loaves tend to have a roller-coaster crust.

King Arthur has a special dried milk product that has been treated so that you don't have a volume and semmetry problem when adding it to enriched breads.

-Grainlady

Here is a link that might be useful: Morning Moo's Dry Milk Alternative

Thanks, Grainlady - that's very useful information. I seem to have been pretty much okay with dill bread that contained cottage cheese, although I avoid cottage cheese otherwise. I'll look into kefir or else buy kefir. I've not had luck with lactose-free milk - it still upsets my stomach and it goes back before I can use it. I also don't like the flavor of goats' milk. I wish I could find buffalo milk, but it appears that all of that goes to make cheese.

I figured that there was something in milk that affected the final result of the bread or else it would not be used. Still, I might be happier just substituting water and not be that concerned about it. Since I'm okay with powdered buttermilk, I wonder if that is an acceptable substitute. I've also found that I need to avoid products that contain whey. I might try Morning Moo, but it only claims to have smaller problems with stomach upset - not to eliminate them altogether. For me, a tiny bit of milk is all it takes for a rather drastic stomach upset, which is why crackers that contain milk or whey are not good for me.

Thanks again for the suggestions!

Lars

I substitute buttermilk in many recipes which call for milk. I add an extra tbs of baking soda if fruit is not in the receipe. I use buttermilk for muffins, soda bread (making it now), pancakes, regular cakes.

Except for soda bread, I haven't tried it in breads. But I don't see why not. I love buttermilk and it doesn't bother my stomach. BTW, Keifer is very similar tasting. I love it. I have problems with regular milk also.

Jane

Lars, I am lactose intolerant. Fresh milk & buttermilk make me sick as a dog. But I can tolerate cheese, cream, & yogurt. I don't overdo either of those, so who knows what would happen to me if I drank a cup of cream or ate a pound of cheese at one sitting!

All that said, for the last two years, I've been using dry buttermilk powder in all the yeast breads I've made. Because of my husband's sodium restricted diet, I only use half of the salt required in bread recipes. The dried buttermilk seems to add a flavor boost that helps compensate for the lower salt content. As far as I can tell, neither the taste or the texture has been compromised by using the dry buttermilk powder.

You might want to try one "test" loaf of bread with buttermilk powder and see how you react to it.

So far, the powdered buttermilk seems like the best choice. I would hate to go to all the trouble of making croissants (and the recipe I use is quite involved) and then have a problem because I left out the milk.

I plan to make pumpernickel tomorrow, but the recipe calls for water instead of milk. I might try another yeast recipe that calls for milk before making croissants, however. I'll look for kefir the next time I go shopping.

Lars

Lars

We had a similar discussion recently regarding bread recipes that call for dry milk.

I made the bread without putting in the dry milk and it came out delicious. Sometime I'll get some dry milk so I can do a test batch both ways and compare results.

Here is a link that might be useful: Non-fat dry milk in bread thread.

That's helpful to know. It kind of convinces me to leave the milk out altogether. I don't care for softer bread - I like it a bit chewier, although I can see how that would be helpful for croissants - although not particularly necessary. I really prefer to leave milk whenever possible, whether dried or not.

I used to make bread dough frequently - but not for the past 10 years or so, and so I can't remember what I used to do, although I do not remember using milk that often. When I was younger, I was very bold about making substitutions when I felt necessary, and I probably just used water instead of milk most of the time. I think I'll go back to that attitude!

Lars

I think you have to play with this. So many lactose intolerant people have different reacttions to things. If I haven't prepared the meal myself I just take lactaid pills. If for other people I use rice milk because it is least likely to introduce an unusual flavor. If it's just for us I've found a soy milk at Trader Joe's that I like. It's a bother isn't it? but it could be worse

Lars, I often substitute water for milk in bread, mostly because I'm out of milk, I don't buy it as often because I only drink one glass for breakfast daily and it's always skim, Ashley likes chocolate milk, whcih might actually be OK in some breads but not most.

I've also successfully substituted my homemade yogurt for sour cream and milk in bread and muffins without noticeable problems.

If it were me, I'd just substitute water in most bread recipes. Croissants are more tender, so that might not be as good an option for them, I'd probably try to sub something else for the milk in those.

Annie

Okay, so I'll use powdered buttermilk when I make croissants. For the other breads, I don't think I will need milk and will probably use water, although I might use yogurt in some cases.

BTW, lactose pills don't work for me:(.

Lars

Lars:
Did you ever find out if you have a milk allergy, or
Are you Lactose Intolerant.
There is a differance.
You should find out ?
Lou

Lou, I never did find out, and I think I have an allergy rather than an intolerance. I should find out. I'll ask my doctor about that the next check up I have, but I'm sure the tests would be expensive.

Lars

Lars: I have a Lactose Intolarence but I can eat small amounts.
Without too much distress.
I don't think the amount in a slice of bread , should effect you that much.
But, if you have an allergy to something, it could cause major problems.
I'm not a Dr. but you can do tests on your self, if you are suspicious,
of an ingredient. Maybe you can narrow it down a little.
Or else take an Aspirin and I'll see you again in 2 weeks.
DR, Lou

I don't know how it would work in bread, but I've subbed coconut milk for milk in muffins and it was fine.
Jo

I forgot about coconut milk. I have plenty of that on hand, and I think that is a really good choice for baking. Thanks for the reminder!

Lars

Lars: Let us know how it worked out.
Lou

Lars, I make lots of bread with just water or buttermilk. Your problem surprises me however since I have a husband and two children that are allergic to milk (terribly) but they are not bothered when it is cooked in a product. Yours must be extremely serious.

Do you share your pumpernickle recipe? I don't think my recipe is very good. Carol