I'm really interested in the responses you got on the tree forum, I'm completely unaware of any problems re planting magnolias near other things. I know you can't dig close to an existing magnolia - to my dismay I'm probably losing a lovely Merrill magnolia because I got too close while planting perennials nearby - I mean about 8 feet from the trunk of a 5 foot tall Merrill.

Heading to the tree forum to look for your post for more info...

Ok, I'm back. I see the problem. They are advising you that if, at present you have only 6 feet between the existing shrubs, you don't have room for a magnolia. The 6' is the current distance between perimeters, which is a difficult number to grok, the ideal numbers would be distance between the center of each shrub and the eventual width of the shrubs. Here's the formula: add half the eventual width of each shrub, subtract that total from the distance between their centers. The result is the space you have left for a magnolia or other tree.

Back to your question. I believe that there is *no problem* planting a magnolia near a hydrangea and a viburnum. That is absolutely true.

I can promise you though, that you will not be happy keeping a Mohawk at a certain width, because it will spoil the lovely layered look of the branches. I removed one after doing this for a few years - mine just wanted to be 12 feet wide, and there was simply no talking it out of that wish.

Good luck with this project. I wish I'd bee able to read the replies to your question on the trees forum about 15 years ago, when I was making a liot of dumb decisions about what I could squeeze into my mixed borders. They are not lying when they tell you that the results may not be so good - come see my garden and you'll know just what they mean.

Here is a link that might be useful: thread on tree forum

Thanks, diggingthedirt, for your reply. I am aware of that formula and I am only shy of it by one foot "if" my Mohawk maxes at 10 feet. If it gets bigger, I can always trim the Hydrangea a bit, as I've read it's easily trimmed to size. I could still move the hydrangea forward a bit, but I don't want any large gaps in this border and it's difficult to know how each of these shrubs will perform in the conditions they are in, you know?

But back to the question (because I have another space I could theoretically put the Mag), how close can you plant a magnolia to existing plants, including perennials like peonies? What have others here done when planting a mag, and has it worked for them?

You have to space any shrub according to its mature size! Failure to do so invariably ends with the litany of posts about "what should I do?" that frequently litter any forum at any given time of the year.

If you are thinking of planting long-lived herbaceous perennials in the vicinity of a "baby" shrub... make damn sure you plant the perennials at the outermost point on the radius of a mature shrub!

No one has a crystal ball to foresee the size your shrubs MAY attain. But if you space according to the listed mature sizes and follow that when planting herbaceous perennials you will not go wrong.

I sense in your post and subsequent reply that you are looking for tacit agreement; a "pass" to do what you really want to do. You won't get one from me, Paige.. I've made that mistake before (more than once) and it's not one you want to make. Trust me.

I know the "open space" looks huge and ripe for planting... but good things come to those who wait! Use the recommended spacing guidelines. Yeah, it will look "sparce" and maybe to stupid people, "dumb". Stick to your guns. You'll be glad you did.

I agree with Anne (Chelone). The only problem is that the "listed size" of many shrubs is a moving target. Different vendors give very different mature sizes for specific cultivars of a lot of shrubs - at least one person on the trees forum thread talked about this.

My Merrill, like many magnolias, seems to want to be as wide as it is high, it has the form of a large shrub although it has two or three main trunks (with very low branches). M. virginiana, on the other hand, is much more tree-like, which may be more along the lines of what you need for this space (if you can take the height) - it seems to have a distinct trunk and its branches begin quite far up off the ground. Naturally, in my particulr garden, this is the exact posite of what I wanted from these two varieties in the locations where I planted them! Can't win, ever.

By the way, one of my 3 M. virginiana, which I planted as tiny starts from a conservation distric sale, grows up through some hollies that have filled in all around the trunk in the past ... 9 years. This does not seem to bother the magnolia at all.

Meanwhile, if you have enough space for a shrubby magnolia, you can fill in with annuals so that things dont look too empty while it's growing.

Paige, I can't answer the Magnolia question but if you have 8-9 feet on center between a Viburnum and a H. paniculata 'Limelight' that should be plenty. Even if the Viburnum gets to be 12 feet wide you still have 5-6 feet for the hydrangea and the paniculatas can be hard pruned in early spring and maintained at any size you want without sacrificing flowers. In that respect they make a great mixed border shrub Also, most perennials are easily moved so if you miss on that spacing it's easily remedied with a shovel. Nothing is going to grow overnight and as you are finding out there is no definitive source on the eventual size of any plant. I'm a nut about plant spacing-I even use a tape measure when I plant. Trust me, even when you do the research and give a plant what you think is plenty of space you will sometimes be wrong. The upside is you'll have years to observe how things are growing and plenty of time to edit as you please.

Sue

Sue, you hit the nail on the head. I have 9 feet of space center to center, and I measured it with a tape measure. I thought I had made it clear above Chelone's post that I had followed the equation given by DTD in planting the shrubs (half the adult width for each, the width being 10 feet for the Mohawk and 8 for the Limelight), but apparently not. Again, if the Mohawk gets as big as DTD's, as Sue said, I can easily trim the Limelight.

But none of this matters anymore because as I said on my tree forum post, I have abandoned the idea of putting the Magnolia between the shrubs and am thinking about putting it in front of my patio about 6 feet from my peonies. So no, I'm not looking for a "free pass," just some advice on where I might, alternatively, be able to place a magnolia!

Sorry, I guess I haven't been at all clear, but my question is no longer "can I plant a magnolia between these shrubs." It is, instead, "can you plant a magnolia near a perennial garden, other trees, or shrubs, and if so, how much distance is needed?" Thanks for any responses!

Yes, as far as I know, you can plant a magnolia near a (or in) perennial garden, with the caveat that you can not dig in the root zone of a magnolia. So, when calculating space, you need to consider the eventual root run of the magnolia - no mean feat, since they are so variable. And the roots don't seem to form a round little ball, they seem to extend a long way here and there - at least on my doomed Merill.

If you're planting perennials that need to be divided every few years, lets say Siberian Iris, you need to figure the *max* width of the variety of magnolia, and keep them that distance away (technically, a little more than half the max reported diameter). If you're planting something like peonies or asarum, that can be left undisturbed forever, you can plant within the expected root zone, and just don't plan to ever dig there.

Thanks so much DTD. So it boils down to the theory that the roots will find their course around preexisting roots of other plants, but cannot stand disturbance after the fact. That makes sense.

This tree would be planted near my peonies. The nearest existing perennial that would require dividing would be my black-eyed susans, which would be far enough away. Now to decide if I would rather sacrifice my plan to make another bed near this spot, or sacrifice the high maintenance but gorgeous mag and get something more friendly to its neighbors. I suppose I could always compromise and do a container garden.

Well, the answer is OBVIOUS to me.

You need a bed for the magnolia, maybe with some ferns or gallium at its feet. You also need another perennial bed, for the things you'd like to plant near the magnolia but can't. Then you need a mixed border, for all the small trees and shrubs that play well with their neighbors.

Now, isn't that perfectly clear? I don't know why the knuckleheads on the tree forum didn't suggest that right at the get-go, you could have saved a lot of time if they had.