As you pointed out when mentioning fishing, I think the view of dumbing down applies to almost everything. Think of Extreme Makeover Home Edition where a whole house "soup to nuts" is done in a short time. This quick thing applies to cooking these days also. (I always bake from scratch.) I think it is media/marketing pushing this instant gratification thing. They don't realize that gardening is one of the best stress relievers out there. What is better than being on your knees, hands in soil, with birds chirping in the background.

I fondly remember my late grandfather donning his special gardening khakis before venturing out to garden. It is a shame that the mass media is dumbing down gardening, and possibly giving the wrong impression to many people that would like to take up gardening. It isn't instant gratification, but you sure get a sense of accomplishment when the garden starts coming together. Gardening also teaches patience, which with all the road rage going on these days, people need more of. Americans are more stressed out because they are not gardening or doing some other activity that teaches you to enjoy the moment and dream about the future.

I agree with hostas, it applies to almost everything. The media is in large part to blame. I read somewhere where they've decided that the news needs to be reported to Americans in nothing above a 7th grade level for us to be able to understand it. I've seen a good example, which I followed closely due to my involvement with poultry. With the last great scare, they started out using the correct term of avian influenza. Then they went to avian flu, but people still don't know what avian means (most probably think it's a brand of bottled water), so now they've brought it down to bird flu, and they're happy that the average person on the street now knows about it.

Of course it doesn't help that the leader of our country displays such a fine example of illiteracy every time he opens his mouth on TV.

Honestly I hate that the "Ripping Down Of Americans" is so rampant & fashionable. If you think our advertizing is bad, go to Japan!

So what if entry level gardening makes it easier for people who work 40+ hours a week to have something pretty that inspires them. I don't get how that effects anyone else's interest. No wonder people think gardeners are snobby. =(

I have been thinking of this thread on and off since I read it yesterday morning. I am coming to the conclusion that there are two kinds of people out there; those who want it now and want it to be "easy" and those who are willing to suffer the "learning curve" to acquire a new skill and at the same time explore some far corner of their personality/creativity.

I see this same attitude all the time in my work (sewing). Gardening, sewing, etc. are not difficult skills in and of themselves, but they do require an attention to detail and a basic foundation of skills before real creativity can occur with dependability. I'm frequently asked how to make window treatments "for less money". When I suggest they get a basic book from the library on their construction, out come the excuses about lack of time, "I can't follow written directions", etc.. Essentially, they want someone to hold their hands and walk them through it. No one wants to hear that making draperies is not a one afternoon project. Whenever I'm asked how long it took me to learn how to do something with a sewing machine my reply is the same... "about 35 years". I mastered the basics and added skills, and I refine them every day I pick up my measuring equipment, shears, or sit behind one of my machines. And I still have to use a seam ripper periodically! This is what apprenticeships and journeymanships were historically all about.

What disturbs me most about the immediate gratification mindset and the unwillingness to apply one's self to LEARN something is that it hints at an inability to focus on a goal for more than a short period of time. Life in "sound bites" robs people of the sense of accomplishment, creativity and mastery. I'm with Hostas., I love that I'm able to "lose myself" when I'm in the garden, or working on a sewing project. When I'm "finished", I have something of beauty and creativity to show for my effort.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but this sounds like computer people did 15 years ago: people shouldn't buy computers, they should suffer and learn how to make their own - because unless they make their own, they really won't understand it and well because, because that's the way "I" did it.

If we went by that principal, then very few people should own cars because they don't understand how they work (I know to put in gas, check oil, can change a tire if I need to - other than that, it goes to the shop).

There is nothing wrong with "easy" gardening (and yes, some can be very easy), it is just different than the way that most people that participate in a forum such as this do it. Unfortunately, not everyone is passionate about gardening, but they do want a nice looking yard. Why rag on them about that?

I think I'm with bogie here. I refused to buy a computer for years, back when you were expected to know about programming and how to deal with serial crashes. When it became easier and more mainstream I learned what I needed to know so I could just use the thing without much hassle.

The point was that there were a lot of things I wanted to learn and a lot of things I wanted to do, but they weren't related to the mechanics of that little box with the monitor sticking up. The computer was, and is, a tool to use to do something else.

I love gardening, and I love learning about plants, but sometimes all I want to know about a plant is how hardy is it and does it need a lot of water and sun.

If someone just wants to make their yard look nice, as they want their house to look nice, there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe they're more interested in their careers, or their children, or their hobbies, than in the intricate horticultural details of a hobby garden.

And frankly, we are mostly passionate hobbyists, like model train enthusiasts, and fly fishermen. We complain that the gardening magazines haven't grown more sophisticated with us, and we forget how we started out ourselves.

There are a lot of fields I know a smidgeon about, and don't care (or need) to know more. If some people don't want to get beyond entry-level gardening, that's fine with me.

Claire

I know LOTS of smart, intelligent but highly stressed people who would love to garden but suffer from brain overload from our crazy world!! I don't think there's anything wrong with supplying easy to read, yep maybe even PICTURE books introducing people to the joys and benefits of gardening. Anything to invite people gardening is a good thing. And maybe someday when the reader's life is less busy, they can pursue the science of gardening in more depth.

Nobody should feel they need to read heavy volumes of text just to have a veggie garden and some flower beds.

The only objection I would have to a "dumbed down" gardener's book would be if it promotes the use of chemicals to achieve a healthy garden. Think glossy garden guide written by "Scotts". Using chemicals might be a quick way to get color but promoting organic gardening principles is important to environmental and personal health, as well as less work for the gardener over the long run.

I've always drawn allusions between gardening and cooking. This sounds like another one. Just because the marketing is towards frozen dinners, and lots of prepared stuff doesn't mean you can't go into a supermarket, buy flour, sugar, eggs, cardamon and yeast and go home and make rolls.

What bugs me about garden marketing is the emphasis on national trends and ideas. Very few of them really work nationally, and most require quite sophisticated adaption to do successfully outside of their native region.

I have two friends, neither of which is very good at growing anything from seed. One friend in particular has had a terrible time trying to grow anything from seed for the last two years. I managed to help her through some of the mistakes last year and gave her some ideas for combating this year's problems. However, this year, she has also encountered problems with bulbs and pre-packed flowers. She finally stated that she was finished. As in she gives up, no more gardening. That made my heart sink. I'd rather have her try some of this dumbed down gardening (and she isn't dumb!) than not garden at all. She knows that gardening isn't easy and that it takes time, but when you get beaten down by it year after year like that, I'm sure it's very easy to become dejected and either take the simple way out or throw in the towel. I am already thinking about what to give to her for Christmas to turn her luck around, like maybe an all-in-one mini greenhouse. Maybe some people would think that is a "dumbed down product", but maybe it should be thought of as a crutch instead, something to help her do what some of the rest of us are naturally blessed with being able to do. After all, she will eventually walk on her own, given time.

Of course there should be ABC books for gardening as for everything else. Hence the popularity of all those Dummies and Idiots books, of which I own a fair number. The problem is that books and especially magazine articles and TV shows for those with more experience and interest have dwindled or disappeared.

I get a lot of magazines and it is stunning to see how they have been dumbed down over the years. Now it is all photography with little more than expanded captions for text. No more meaty, substantive explorations of garden topics. That's also true, of course, of other subjects.

Solid garden books are few and far between as well. There was Timber Press but they were limited to horticulture--almost no garden history or design--and now they've been sold.

The saddest thing is that I don't think it's a plot by powerful forces beyond our control. Look at what's on TV every night--to me, a troubling reflection of trends in our society. Jefferson (I think!) said people get the government they deserve. You could also say that about what people choose to do in their free time, gardening included. If fast, easy and third-rate is all that is demanded, that is all that will be supplied.

I find it pretty easy to ignore gardening information that is too rudimentary to be of interest to me. I have no problem with helping people get off to an easy start. What makes me shake my head is when people are offered information that is misleading. I am thinking about the stupid commercial where the guy is saying good bug or bad bug? Who knows? Just spray with this product and it will be gone. Apart from the ecological horror of this, is the failure to mention that once you have killed off all the pollinators in your garden, your only option is to try to pollinate by hand.

I think about those pictures of predesigned gardens where it isn't clear that half the plants in the display are not in bloom together and that the person will never have the garden they see pictured. I have no objection to easy, but am concerned that what is touted as "easy" doesn't really deliver. It seems to me that what we have is not so much the dumbing down of gardening over time, but the rise in advertising hype and exploitation of people's wish/need to save time.

The term "exterior decorating" comes to mind here. I think thats the main goal of many people who are "gardening" and its the demographics of the marketeers.

I think of gardening much like I do my piano. I've been doing both for about the same length of time; since I was four. Gardening has become instinctive & playing the piano is, at its core, nothing more than repetitive target practice. But, oh how long and how much effort it took for me to reach this place I'm now enjoying!

I do think marketing today is geared towards this "dumbing down of America". But, if you ask an educator (my aunt taught 5th grade for 32 years) they will tell you than America IS dumbing down. It's so sad. We import our scientists, doctors, engineers today because we are not growing our own...it's too much work & too hard; or, so say today's youth. And parents contribute. They think it's just awful that their children would need to spend 4-5 hours/night doing homework. Tantamount to abusive by listening to some of the 30-40'ish young parents I know.

My father was a professional musician. He got up before dawn as a kid to practice before school. He worked hard in school & even though his formal education stopped with 8th grade so he could help support the family with his music; he learned more in those years than I did all the way through high school. Later in life, he purchased a business which through his dedicated & hard work was successful enough that his children would reap & enjoy the benefits throughout their lifetimes. His eighth-grade math skills were superior to mine today. His handwriting was what we know today as caligraphy because he was drilled & drilled to write so somebody else could read it & take pride in his skills. His command of the English language was strong. Even though English was his second language he was expected to function with his peers who did not speak another, different language at home. He'd read the complete works of Shakespeare by the eighth-grade. He was not more intelligient than I am. His educators & parents expected more performance from him. His frustration with my music teachers was palpable. He paid for seventeen years of music lessons for me & I learned, maybe, half of his skills. Now, my daughter-in-law is a music major graduate & teacher (what goes around, comes around doesn't it?) & she tells me that what I was used to would today be considered onerous for a music student. Today, students won't do the repetitive drills necessary for mastery of technique, timing, fingering, & keyboard proficiency. They complain about lesson plans requiring more than 30 minutes of their time. As a teenager, I practiced 4-6 hours/day six days each week & my father put in a full 8 hours during his youth. My father had no free time to play four different sports. He attended school, did homework, practiced his music, & held a job from the time he was twelve. I attended school, did homework, practiced my music, & worked from the time I was fifteen. If I was lucky, I could take a Saturday night to be with friends or date as a teenager.

I think my generation is largely to blame. Somehow, we forgot our heritage. People today are stressed filled & overworked yet accomplish less with the same twenty-four hours, IMO, than my parents' generation did. We say that productivity is greatly increased today. And, maybe, it is in some areas. But, overall, I don't think it is. When I stop & remember what all my own parents accomplished within their same alloted 24 hours I'm exhausted.

Today, children take so much more of parents' time. Parents drive their children here/there, to/fro, and back again. I walked or I didn't go. Today, children must have all of the latest & newest of most everything...ever peeked inside a seven year old's room recently? I received a single Christmas present; was delighted & awed that it arrived just for me! My Christmas stocking brought other wonders...an orange and a cookie! They were the highlight of my young life. Today, stockings contain $100+ ipods or $50 video games. Children receive so many presents nothing has meaning...just more, more, more. Where does it end? What is left to desire?

Today, we teach children to work as a team so everybody benefits. We don't mention the ugly word competition. Everybody must win. No matter that when these children reach adulthood & enter the work force they will be judged on their own merits. There's no payoff for the child who works his tail off to improve performance no matter what the task...sports/school it doesn't matter. Everybody must win and win alike. How does this attitude inspire young people to expend the time & effort it takes to learn gardening? Gardening is a solitary endeavor. It's rarely team work. There's no parents around cheering approval when the $60 plant dies like they did when their basketball team lost. I just don't see youth today being taught preserverence at much of anything. Win is OK, lose is OK. I was taught if I flubbed a recital...go back to the keyboard & practice, practice, practice until I could do it right; in my sleep.

Gardening takes effort & lots of it. Some are naturally gifted. Most are not; they have to learn. That takes patience, focus, & dedication. Life is instant gratification to today's youth. If I can't do it perfect on the first fifteen minute try then I can't be bothered. I'll find excuses other than my own lack of ability to expend the effort it requires to master.

I so often hear my own son complaining about how employers expect so much more today. Oh, poppycock! Does he genuinely believe that people work harder today than they did, say, in 1850? No, well, maybe 1920? Still no, well, then let's go for 1950 after the wars. If he managed to learn anything from his highschool history classes then he knows that, of course, he doesn't work any harder or longer hours than his parents or grandparents did. He just works differently. My father worked 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. six days a week. He had a family with three children. He always owed his own homes that required maintenance. He had a wife who he enjoyed spending time with. What he didn't do was feel entitled to spending an hour and a half a day "at the gym" so he could "work-out". Or, spending a Saturday morning on the golf course instead of working. These folks that complain today about how hard they work insult our parents & grandparents, IMO. My grandfather felt his grandchildren were lazy bums! And, rightly so by his standards. (One of those grandchildren would, of course, be me.)

I am Blessed & priviledged. I am the first to own that. My grandparents & parents worked very hard so I would have opportunities they never did. I capitalized on those opportunities & today, along with my DH, enjoy a comfortable lifestyle. But, I am always aware that we piggybacked off their blood, sweat, & tears to be in the position we are today. They left me with an understanding that I and only I must work hard to accomplish my goals & desires. The world will not hand me anything of much value. I must earn it. Our children work hard but they have an attitiude of entitlement that we can't relate to. I can only conclude we gave them too much & too soon.

They seem to understand that they must do the hard work to become accomplished at multiple skills in life & are doing that. But, they are not passing that down to their children (my grandkids). It has been deluted to oblivion. Here's an example: my granddaughter turned six a few months ago. For her birthday, she was taken to NYC on a package deal promoted by American Girl dolls. She attended a Broadway play, stayed in a fancy hotel, visited the American Doll store in NYC, & had $150 to spend at the store. Now remember, this child has just turned SIX! What the beejeezums does she get when she turns sixteen? Does she appreciate that NYC trip? Of course not. She's six! Today's six year olds do not appreciate anything.

Oh, bah humbug...I'm off my way too high soapbox. Thanks for humoring me through my tirade about why people aren't learning the science part of gardening.

Tricia

As usual, my friends on this forum offer insights and interpretations that are thought provoking. I've read each one carefully.

I DO think "dumbing down" occurs too frequently and I DO believe that the more we acquiese, the more we bestow our tacit approval, and receive more of what we don't like. When we refuse to "cave in" (give private, free professional advice) we're often told our humorous parries are "mean", "insulting", "demeaning"... WAH! Life in the "food chain". I've been twitted more than a few times on Gardenweb... it hasn't lessened my participation but it HAS made me reevaluate my perceptions!

I don't believe there's anything wrong with "easy"; but even "easy" isn't always EASY. For example: you have a hot, dry space with thin soil in full sun and you want to create a garden. OK, likely plants might include Sedums, Grasses, Bearded Iris, Artemisia, etc.. A wonderful palette of plants, guaranteed to delight and prosper. But what if the person looking for "easy" has Peonies, Dictamnus, Platycodon, Baptisia in mind? Suddenly, "easy" isn't quite so easy.

And this ties in to the sentiment voiced repeatedly here. The need and desire for immediate gratification and lack of prepararation is what the helpmeet faces daily at work... "I bought this plant last year and it died. I want a refund." It happens all the time, and invariably the article is produced as "evidence" and nowhere is the plant in question mentioned in the planting diagram... all the reader read was "full sun".

He and I are also very disturbed by something Asarum touched on... the naive belief that there is a quick, "cure all" for every garden woe/disappointment. Too many are unable or unwilling to comprehend that chemical warfare isn't going to give them the garden they THINK they want. Sometimes plants JUST DIE. Accept it and try again.

I have nothing against people who want a nice yard, but I have a problem with the chemical approach that destroys acquifers, native amphibious wildlife, insects, and native plants. Sadly, this is too often the "collateral damage" that goes hand in hand with products marketed as "easy". Somewhere along the line we've allowed ourselves to be removed from the natural world and all it can teach and offer us because we're so busy looking for "easy" and "time saving" products.

Like Chelone, I've read each and every post and thought about all that's been said all day before posting.

So my thoughts are these.

I'm not sure if "dumbing down of gardening in America" is really the right words to use.
To me it's more big business using and abusing the new gardener and the busy lives that people have.
Many people move into a new home, are new to gardening, don't know where to begin and get sucked into the ads and promos that tell them that this will make it easy.

Sometimes it really does. Things like bring home a beautiful already fancy potted plant, grow it in that container, needs full sun and water. It really can be that easy.
I know because that's what I did the first year I lived in my home. We moved into a house with a very active 2 year old boy, an acre of land, not a flower in sight, but absolutley beautiful shrubs. Problem was they where dumped all over the front yard, trees growing where the shrub version should have been blocking light from coming in windows, a real disaster.

I cried at the thought of no flowers and went to the local nursery and bought several potted containers and put them around the yard in the sun. Picked up hoses, sprayers, some clippers, a hand saw (you don't give chain saws to electrical engineers to use) and got to work.

All the time I was studying the light, the sun, where the sun was when and for how long.

First the tress came down in front of the picture window. They where literally leaning on the glass and no light came in the window. That lowered my electric bill by over $20 a month over the summer. No more light bulbs on in broad daylight.

Next, hubby and I started to hack down lots of shrubs. I saved the 2 colorado blue spruces smack in the center of the front yard and gave them as Xmas gifts to 2 friends for their trees.
Hubby thought I had lost my mind, but sorry, 12 foot rhodies in the middle of the front yard had to go as did the ones leaning on the fence in the back.

When fall came, we dug out an entire section under the picture window and filled it with top soil, peat and humous so I could have plants there the following year.

Dug out a second section in the front yard around those colorado spruces and made a lasagna bed there. It was quite large and filled it with top soil, newspapers to break down, peat and humous.

The following spring I started buying plants. Figuring that I grew up on a summer flower and veggie farm I knew what I was doing. Learned from mistakes and got lucky too.
My hydrangeas, blue ones hubby and son bought me for mother's day came from the market. I got lucky there, they where hardy to this area and the most beautiful blue you have ever seen. But other plants that where easy growers, didn't work.

Simple became hard and I learned. I tried the simple and, like I said, some was really simple and some weren't.

But if anyone had posted something like this post and called it the dumbing down of gardening in America, I might have given up on my gardening adventures, attempts, successes and failures many, many years ago.

Gardening is hard work, but what some of us call hard work may involve very invovled and complicated gardens vs the simple gardening of some daylilies, iris, marigolds and the like.

Many of us have very involved fancy gardens, and others just sort of dump and run.

Many of us don't have the time to fully be involved in massive gardening and do want something nice to have and look at.

As one starts with the simple and easy, more and more gets added and tried and people learn. I wouldn't want to see a new gardener get scared off by those of us who say it's dumbing down of gardening.

Gardens are always a work in progress, in my opinion, ever changing and moving plants, adding new flowers and learning all the time.

I have many separate gardens in my yard, and flowers planted all over the place. I keep adding more and more of them, digging out more and more lawns to have more and more gardens.
I'm one of those that don't believe in having lots of lawn. Looks nice when green, but looks brown in our summers unless you spend time, money and lots of water on them to keep them green. I'd rather be doing that on my gardens.

Those of us that are involved in Wintersowing, as I am, have tons and tons of new plants every year, both annuals and perennials. I give many of them away at swaps, ast Chelone can attest to, but there are people who would say that my gardens are not what they should be.

I've been told that I take the easy way of doing gardening.
I'm not sure what that is, but I will have probably 700-800 new seedlings to plant this year alone and not enough room for them all.

I stuff them in my gardens where ever I find space and when I run out of space I just stuff them in. I'm forever moving plants from one location to another and stuffing them in pots to grow.

That could be considered the easy way of gardening so I have been told by neighbors, but they sure want my WS seedlings evey year.

I guess what I'm saying is that people have their own style of gardening and it should be accepted by all of us. In my opinion, it's more important to see new people begin to garden and slowly learn than to criticize because they are doing it in what is being termed "the dumbing down of gardening in America".

I'm more concerned with the pesticide, chemical use that people get sucked into than simple gardening. That is something that needs to be stopped.
They have their place in certain circumstances, I will be the first to admit that. For example I do use roundup on poison ivy. I grit my teeth to use it, but when you have a daughter that almost died twice from contact with it because she's anaphalacticly allergic, then one doesn't have much choice. And I've used a pesticide on hornet nests because my son is the same way with hornets, but that's it.

I honestly believe though, that once a person starts to garden with the so called easy way, they continue to branch out and try something a little harder and harder and learn not only the pleasure and beauty of their gardens, but that it is hard work and well worth the hard work.

Please don't scare people off.

Fran

I am totally loving this discussion thread. As a new gardener, I can see both sides of the arguement. I wasn't a gardener until we bought our house almost three years ago, but I have always worked full-time plus a part-time job for extra money. That leaves me little time to get things done in our acre+ yard.

Fortunately, a good friend of mine is an avid gardener and was willing to help me get started. I didn't even know that plants had soil and light requirements - that's how naive I was about gardening! But my interest in gardening pushed me to learn all that I could about it, which meant reading books and online forums as often as I could and trying plants in different parts of my yard. Do I remember the Latin names of every plant in my yard? No, but that doesn't mean that I am a dumb gardener IMHO.

The only reason why these marketing gimmicks even work is that there is a whole contingent of people out there who don't know any better. They probably get their advice from the workers at Home Depot or Lowe's. Someone in an orange apron said "Sure, that Miracle-Gro all-in-one weed killer, fertilizer, seed starter, wash your windows spray works great!"

So rather than pitying your neighbor who has no clue why her non-frost tolerant plants keep dying every April, tell him/her about our forum or about a good book that will help her learn more about gardening. If not for my friend who got me on the right path, I would probably be one of those "dumbed down" people simply because no one would have bothered to teach me any differently.

Fbot: The words "dumbing down of gardening" seem to mean a vast number of things to different people. However, what I am certain they can't be intending to say is that newcomers to gardening are somehow ruining gardening or not having knowledge about a subject makes a person stupid. In addition, we can't point a finger at people who do dumb things in the garden because we would be pointing fingers at ourselves. (Not a season goes by that I don't stupidly kill off a few plants by failing to do what I know I should have done.) I think that what many people who posted to this thread are talking about is not really best described as the "dumbing down" of gardening so much as the ultra-commercialization of gardening with plants selected that will be sure to make a quick sale, rather than plants that will actually hold up in the garden, for instance. I think of little sound-bite sections of TV programs that say something about spring bulbs, but not necessarily enough to be really helpful or to warn viewers that those tulips will die out, etc. As some people mention this is true for everything in the media today. Quick sound bites, not a thoughtful discussion of a complex topic, all programming to the common denominator for whatever will bring in the most money.

But I just want to make clear that no one is deriding newbies for being newbies. My heart is with every newbie to gardening who goes to the nursery and picks out some plants to get started. I am often worried when I see misleading things in the garden center such as non-hardy grasses mixed in with hardy.

I just ran into a perfect example of this commercial shift.

I went to buy some Daconil (please, no drug rants, keeps Dogwood anthracnose in check). I know I've seen it at HD in the past, but didn't see it today. Ortho had something similar called "Disease Control". The label seemed to cover the same plants and diseases that I guessed Daconil covered. The active ingredient was not familiar to me and didn't have similarity to "Daconil". But I got it anyhow. I just checked my old Daconil bottle with 1 TBL left in it and lo and behold, identical active ingredient! "Disease Control" is a name change for "Daconil".

Its not exactly misleading. I'm sure they thought about it and figured it would be "simpler" for the masses. But I know what I wanted. I wanted Daconil. Now I will have to learn active ingredients and read all labels more carefully. I learned to identify imadicloripid (but not how to spell it!), so I'm sure I can learn more "next level" detail as big corporations try to appeal to the masses and obsfucate the details.

One of the jobs I've been doing lately at the garden center, is making up large containers of "instant gratification". Actually, since we are rebuilding my husband's grandparents summer home in Rhode Island, I may get a few of these containers to tide me over until I can actually study the light and soil conditions, etc. which won't be this year. I already know by looking at what works in neighboring yards, I will try in this new one.

What I have observed over the years is either you have it or you don't. By "it", I mean the garden spark, that passionate interest in learning and applying all you can. Possibly it's genetic (but definitely skipped some generations in my family), but I have always wondered why some people become nearly consumed with gardening and others don't. Maybe it's the same sort of thing such as an interest in model trains, or fly fishing, etc., the kind of hobbyist who seeks out the best supplies, reads all the books they can about the subject, seeks out online forums for more information and people who have the same interest, and spends countless hours doing it.

I have tried and failed to get the gardening bug into friends and neighbors. I planted a small rose garden for my friend 3 years ago and to this day she doesn't know a thing about roses (she just asks me what she should do at certain times but generally neglects them). She does like them when they're in bloom but generally has no interest in learning more about roses or adding more to her garden.

These people are the vast majority that venture into garden centers and nurseries, where the main objective is to sell, not educate. I stopped at Lowe's yesterday and they had all manner of warm-weather annuals for sale, despite the fact that it's too cold out and these plants will likely die once taken home and planted by the unsuspecting customer.

I also looked for the Bayer Rose & Flower Insect Killer, containing the imadicloripid that kills the lily beetles and the japanese beetles so well. Bayer has discontinued it, and all you can find is the "3 in 1". Which is a systemic that will kill everything in the soil, a chemical fertilizer that my plants don't need, and a fungicide I would rather not use. All I wanted was the spray that I could use occasionally for specific target insects.

Maybe it's the same sort of thing such as an interest in model trains, or fly fishing, etc., the kind of hobbyist who seeks out the best supplies, reads all the books they can about the subject, seeks out online forums for more information and people who have the same interest, and spends countless hours doing it.

I'm convinced that it is, that you have correctly described the matter. My father is consumed by computers and always has been (he taught me to count in binary back in 1967, when I was seven!) As a teenager he was consumed by photography. He even developed pictures for classmates (in a homemade darkroom in the basement), and so made some spare $$ on the side.

My sister has the photography bug and she's quite good at it!

Me?

Meh.....

My mother's mother came from a family of strong gardeners and farmers. My sister has a fair bit of that, but not like I do!

I majored in it!

Put me down as agreeing with both sides too.
I'm a total novice gardener but, at the risk of sounding like a new agey tiwt, the capricorn in me is ok with starting out with something easy like "can't kill 'em hostas/daylillies/herbs" so I can have something green and then letting that lead me where it will with time and hard work. I NEED the idiot guides etc. because I had no one to teach me. My mother grew up on a farm, "got out of dodge" and retained NOTHING of what my grandparents tried to pass on. It's the same with any number of the women my age *cough* late thirties *cough* who have small children, are stay at home moms but are struggling to re-learn things our grandmothers knew but our mothers couldn't or weren't able pass along. This is just another glaring example of the disconnect big business' focus on quick-fixes/instant results has created in our society.

Lots of interesting points of view here, as always!

If offering dumbed-down products and services helps people have early success, and gets them hooked on gardening, that's fine with me. The only exception, IMHO, is the idea that you need to spray your yard to get rid of all the bugs and douse all your plants with fertilizer to make them grow fast).

There was a thread here a few months ago about a fetilizer that had no nutrient ratio on the label - possibly because the manufacturer thought that was too much information for the dummies who would buy the product (or possibly because it didn't compare well with other less expensive products?) and I don't know where or if that fits into the dumbing down of gardening.

Anyway, I still find plenty of detailed information in horticulture and fine gardening magazines, and there are still plenty of great garden books being written - and a huge number of older books I haven't read yet. I'd like to see more and better gardening shows on tv, but I'd probably never get around to watching them anyway.

So, all in all, the dumbing down doesn't really bother me, if it is going on ... somewhere out there.

I wonder of what we're seeing is the stratification and specialization of gardening, more than the dumbing down.

Here's what I mean. There are a vast number of people in this country who know nothing about gardening, and don't want to know anything; they just want a nice yard without a lot of work. The mass-market advertisers cater (pander?) to them. And yes, they often do it in embarrassingly false or damaging ways. Shame on them.

I wonder if 100 years ago, people in this mass-market category would not have had gardens at all, or paid someone else to know everything for them?

My impresison is that there has actually been a huge explosion of knowledge and information about esoteric garden lore and plants over the last 50 years. My dear grandfather was a Plant Person; a professional florist, and hobby gardener. While he probably forgot more than I'll ever learn, I am not sure how much of an expert he would even be considered by today's standards.

My former neighbor in Texas was a retired nursery owner. He had the most breathtakingly beautiful small backyard garden I have ever seen. On inspection, I noticed that all the beauty was in the design; the plant material ranged from prosaic, to banal, all the way to hackneyed. And this guy *owned* a *nursery* and *loved to garden.* He had designed and planted this garden probably in the 1950's, when his plant choices were just limited. From looking around my neighborhood, built in the 1950's, it appears that everybody pretty much stuck with the tried-and-true; boxwood, St. Augustine, elms, and caladiums (any transplanted Southerners out there know what I'm talking about). One local nurseryman did seem to be trying out some natives at about that time, but in general the plants of choice were very, very uniform.

These older guys - dedicated gardeners who spent many years on their knees in the dirt - learned a lot through experience, but their information sources, it seems to me, were actually limited compared to what we have today. Since both of them were hardworking small-business owners, they didn't have a lot of time to spend hobnobbing with other dedicated hobbyists trading seeds, cuttings, and knowledge.

Now I compare that to what we have today. People are trying out lots of new stuff, for example natives and naturalized plants galore. This may not be as noticeable a phenomenon in New England - I just moved here so I'm not sure. But in non-classic-garden-book environments like Texas, there is a profound change in the way gardeners are approaching the landscape; matching their plant materials to its environment rather than trying to change the environment to match some "ideal" amount of water, soil type, etc. People are paying attention to habitat and gardening for wildlife. They garden with an awareness that their garden is not just "exterior decor" but a part of the living fabric of the world. And this is not just happening with intellectuals and hippies the way it did during my childhood (1970's) but even suburban soccer moms are thinking this way. Not all of them, certainly, but driving though the suburban sprawl in my old town (don't get me started on urban sprawl...) I am heartened to see how many ordinary-looking homes are landscaped with natives and well-adapted plants instead of vast water-sucking chemically-treated lawns.

As far as publications getting "dumbed down" I wonder if some of that has to do with our very own medium here, online. I know that when I want to get inspired with pretty glossy pictures and ignore some sleep-inducing, bullet-pointed text, I buy a Real Simple or a Martha Stewart Living. But when I want to get dirt-under-the-fingernails wisdom and *real* information, latin names and all, I go online and learn from actual people. There is possibly not such a market for in-depth information in magazines and books because there is more, better, more personal and more immediate information online than there could be in any print medium. WE are the experts now. (Well, actually not me, I'm a born-again newbie in this totally new environment, but other people on this forum!) The books tend to be about some new "principle" that someone wants to advocate: no-till vegetable gardening, or four-season gardening, or whatever. Whereas if I want to learn about, specifically, clematis ... well who wouldn't just go online? There I find catalogs, scholarly articles, websites from hobbyist fans who probably know at least as much as the university experts ... all for the cost of my DSL connction and laptop, which I already have for other reasons.

So I do not dispair. I think that there are at least as many, if not more, serious knowledge-seeking, patient gardeners out there as there ever were. With people living and staying healthy longer, and gardening so often being a passion of the later adult years when we finally have the time and patience to observe, learn, and keep trying, I think that the ranks of good, knowledgeable gardeners is really going to increase, too. But I don't expect that to be apparent from the mass-market perspective. I think that the boom will happen "underground" as information spreads online from passionate hobbyist to professonal to small nurseryman and back again,

Wonderfully insightful post, Tricot. I would like to welcome you to the forum, seein' as you're new to this neck o' the woods... .

I am heartened by your observances on xeriscaping in hotter, more arid climes. I wonder though (the skeptic in me) if that has more to do with the PRICE of water or a genuine desire to learn more about gardening. On reflection, though, I suppose it really doesn't matter, as long as the net result is more about ADAPTING to available resources and less about ham-handed attempts to change the reality of a locale.

When did you move to New England, what's your state? "Hey... like, what's your zone, man?".

;)

it was a super-spectacular gardening day today because i discovered that one lone dutchman's breech (Dicentra cucullaria) & three whole showy trilliums (T. grandiflorum) -- seeds from New England Wildflower Society, sown December 2005 -- had germinated. oh happy day! tra-loo! tra-lay!

i discovered winter sowing a couple years ago and it triggered every last twitchy obsessive-compulsive neuron in my feeble brain. i pore over seed catalogs from faraway lands (Germany! Latvia! Framingham!), sweat over latin like i haven't done since college, drill coworkers to bring me milk jugs, spend far too many happy hours scouring garden sites & blogs on the web, lug ginormous bags of dirt to the potting station in the basement, perfect arcane spreadsheets and labeling systems, trade seeds with the similarly-afflicted, devise devious squirrel baffles, rejoice with each newborn leaf, and love every grubby sanity-making minute of it.

on the off chance that the wee dutchman's breeches, showy trilliums, and other (hopefully) sprouting woodland ephemerals don't croak, i started a new shade bed last year by smothering grass over the winter and amending with carefully-hoarded leaf mould and a little bonus mycorrhizae. should be good to go in about another year. (let us not discuss the related soil/composting obsession just now, ok?)

So here's the Master Plan, if the good lord's willin' & the creek don't rise: five years or so from now, boy howdy, i'm going to have a veritable blooming woodland party right in my very own suburban front yard.

but silly me. i could have used Roll 'n' Grow.

I guess I would have to say that I don't think there is anything wrong with people who want to dabble in a garden using short cuts or instant gratification techniques. The way I view this is that anyone can benefit from beautifying their surroundings--whether on a small scale or a grand scale.

I am a lawyer, a mother of 3 and an avid gardener. Time is scarce--especially during baseball season. However, I love gardening and spend all my spare time reading and planning. I don't simply stick to gardening magazines, although I confess the beautiful photos can be inspirational. I love to purchase detailed gardening books on whatever my new interest of the season may be. Last year I was fascinated with mosses and lichens, and this year I have been delving into hardy bamboos. This is what I like to do in my little spare time.

However, I don't begrudge my neighbor's enjoyment of a simple container purchased pre-planted with whatever annuals she may like. Its all about following your passion and beautifying your surroundings to soothe a soul that is too often beaten down by the fast paced world we live in...just my opinion.

Carolyn

Thanks for the welcome, Chelone! I'm up in Maine. I recently bought some land in the Brooks area, which is mid-coast Maine near Belfast. Very exciting for both me (lived in an arid Zone 8 all my life) and my husband (grew up in northern Maine and thinks mid-coast Maine is practically tropical).

I think a few xeriscapers are motivated by cost, but I think that a lot more of them are motivated by failure. Keeping a plant looking decent outside its preferred environment is difficult, time-consuming and for a lot of people, frankly depressing. Whereas a native perennial garden goes in, needs watering and weeding till it gets established, and then pretty much looks decent with minimal attention. When I discovered native-plants gardening in the late '80's, I was dumbfounded. Flowers that stayed alive even if you didn't water them every day? Wow, new concept! :-)

I have nothing to say that's on topic, because I think everyone covered it already, but Tricia, my son gets an orange in his stocking every year and it absolutely thrills him. He always sits down in front of the fireplace and asks me to tell him again about how in the olden days, my grandmother only had that one orange a year because they cost too much for her parents to buy them. They had to wait for Santa. He's amazed at how thoughtful Santa is.

And then we go to the cousins' house and they show my son the Nintendo games and cash they found in their stockings. So far, my son just thinks it's sad that Santa hasn't included his cousins in the family tradition, and he doesn't rub it in.

I meant to tell Tricia that Mum ALWAYS included an orange in the very tip of our (hand knit) Christmas stockings, too! There was a particularly lovely short story that was read on NPR for a few years about Christmas in impoverished OK, AK, one of those dust bowl states... . I believe the orange was featured in it, too.

LOL, Marie... thou art greatly possessed. I can only imagine how thrilled you must be with your results. Good for you.

Tricot, I'm in Maine's "banana belt" and can only imagine how wondrous this moist, humid, temperate climate must be for you. You'll have to be sure to share your observations with us.

I think the thing that stuck out most for me in the OP was the part where "real" gardeners should learn latin names LOL

Since it has been brought up, I will dredge up the cooking/gardening parallel again. I am a professional chef. I went to school, where my instructors taught me the "right" way to do things, generally more time consuming, but that they said would give the best results.
Then I got out in the real world, and realized that cutting a few corners not only made my boss really happy (since production was increased) but any chenge in quality was pretty much un-noticable.

The average diner is not going to know or care the difference between Tahitian vanilla and Bourbon vanilla,they just want it to taste good.The average gardener does not know the difference in the many varieties of any plant, they just want something they enjoy looking at.

Of course there are some corners can't be cut in both arenas, but to insist that *none* can be cut is snobbery.

Does it really matter how people get into gardening? If they are making an effort, more power to them. I'd much rather see that than yet more landscaping/lawn care businesses dumping chemicals on lawns and chemical-filled RED mulch around trees and shrubs and against houses!!

I moved to Maryland from Texas almost 4 years ago. After having my beautiful antique roses die when I moved from San Antonio to San Angelo TX (yeah, expensive hard lesson there), I didn't do much at all with gardening, mostly because we were in a rental house and were in the middle of a drought. After we moved to MD, I waited until we knew that we would be staying in this house for longer than our military tour of three years. Last year, I decided I wanted some flowers and planted a couple of roses and a hydrangea. After moving the hydrangea to a shadier spot and moving a couple of the roses to a sunnier spot, everything did well, which encouraged me to keep digging... Our town has a freecycle group, and I got some plants from a very active member of the local garden club, who has encouraged my efforts from day one. The club's motto is basically 'your $10 membership fee should get you $300 worth of plants the first year'. The members are generous with their extras and well informed, such a great resource to a military transplant like me!. Gardenweb's Mid-Atlantic forum is a terrific group as well, they had their spring swap this past weekend and I came home with a ton of plants. They prefer that we use Latin names, but more to limit confusion than because they're snobby.

Instead of railing about how horrible the situation is, how about doing something about it in your area?
*Talk to the manager at HD/Lowe's/wherever about ordering plants that will actually do well in the area.
*Is there a local garden club?? Is it full of stuffy snobs comparing their umpty-year gardens or is it active and welcoming to new gardeners? Is there a 'garden open house' where new gardeners can go to see local neighborhood gardens and get their questions answered?
*Is there a gardenweb (or other online)forum for the area?
*Are there any plant swaps in the area? Would it be possible to have a plant sale with a portion of the sales going to beautify a local building with plants that will grow well so new folks can see natives in a local setting?
*Is there a freecycle group in your area? Post some plant 'offers' and get people involved!

Just like with cooking or sewing or any other craft, a skill must be LEARNED. Give people a chance to learn the skill by starting with the easy stuff. You don't expect a new baker to start out with a wedding cake or a person new to sewing to start out with a double wedding quilt. Be reasonable and make the effort to HELP new gardeners, not bash them down.

Lynne

They prefer that we use Latin names, but more to limit confusion than because they're snobby.

Uh... as far as I've seen, *everyone* who urges the use of Latin names does it to limit confusion. I have never met anyone who does it to try to be snobby. Learning Latin names is free and not that hard, so what's there to be snobby ABOUT?

Is there a local garden club?? Is it full of stuffy snobs comparing their umpty-year gardens

Snobby again? I can only imagine you've met some unpleasant people in the past, Lynne. I'm sorry about it if so. The gardeners I personally know with umpty-year gardens are very warm, friendly, encouraging people.

As for the main topic, I think your list of resources is a really good one! I don't think the original poster was complaining that newbies want to get into gardening-- I think they were complaining that newbies are being fed shiny commercialized pap instead of simple but useful information. For instance, I don't expect a beginner or a casual gardener to read a tome on microclimates and soil evaluation. But I do think they should be told, "Hey, most plants have limits to how harsh a winter they can survive, so we number regions south to north according to how cold the winters get. Where you are, you should be able to grow anything listed as zone 6 or warmer, which would be a higher number."

Compare that to "Just Plant 'N Gro(tm)! Acres of flowers in one easy can!" or whatever. Simple and basic is not the same as dumbed down, and even casual gardeners deserve the basic information that will help them avoid wasting their money and their time.

Here, here! Greening! well stated.

And the members of my local garden club are universally charming, supportive, and very helpful. And I'm no longer even a member.

"Uh... as far as I've seen, *everyone* who urges the use of Latin names does it to limit confusion. I have never met anyone who does it to try to be snobby. Learning Latin names is free and not that hard, so what's there to be snobby ABOUT? "

To insist it is *necessary* in order to garden is the snob part. Like gardening should only be done by some elite class.

I would wager the majority of people who enjoy gardening have no interest in trading, talking about, or collecting more than one variety of a plant, why should they have to learn this for a hobby? Why can't they pick out some plants they like, put them in the ground and just enjoy the view? Why shouldn't it be easy and fun to do something you enjoy? Learn along the way.

While Mr. Engebretson would apparantly like us to wear hairshirts and flagellate ourselves while in the garden, I refuse to deter anyone from the joy of being in the garden because they haven't learned his set of rules.

there are as many species of gardener as there are gardens.

i'm nowhere near fluent in botanical nomenclature, but i do know that learning the latin *is* essential to my notion of what a gardener should do because latin is the lingua franca of plant enthusiasts the world over. understanding the latin tells me more stuff about a plant, helps me refine my obsessions, and allows me to converse with the similarly-afflicted.

my neighbors buy forced bulbs 'n' pansies 'n' daisies at the supermarket, plop them in the ground pot 'n' all, and repeat the process once a month when their plants die. and you know what? they're good and kind people & it just tickles me how happy it makes them. on any given day, their yard looks infinitely more picture-perfect than mine, but i bet that my own bristly, shaggy, ill-conceived smatterings of oddities fill me with just as much joy ... and i'm not ashamed to admit that the proudly plebeian red geraniums in my windowboxes give me as much of a kick some days as the ephemeral whaddyacallits in my shade garden.

lose the chip on your shoulder, hipchick. just because some of us are nerds doesn't make us snobs.

there is no chip on my shoulder marie LOL Learn all the latin you want, or none if you prefer.

However, this little attitude of yours, the same one you pulled on that post in cottage gardens that got deleted, is not appreciated.