Hi Cloudy Christine,

I'm not familiar with that recipe, but I've done something similar from Patricia Wells. Hers is actually an oven-baked olive, herb and olive oil mixture.

I think you could probably do what you want to do with the olives if you gently warmed the oil with the garlic as an infusion then strained the garlic out and cooled the oil before marinating the olives. That way you have the garlic flavor without the risk. In fact, it might taste better as you wouldn't have the potential of bitterness. Herbs could also be infused, if you wish. I do that with rosemary, particularly, because of its assertiveness.

If there's also lemon or other acid in the mixture, that assists in the reduction of risk. Botulism doesn't like acid.

I hope this helps.

Carol

If you do use the garlic, cut it up into small pieces to get the most flavor out of it. I don't think there is much risk if its refrigerated. Botulism might not survive the oil anyway, but even for that, your could risk a rancid product if there was lots of air and room temps. Most green olives are salt cured anyway, so they are fairly safe.

I would not leave anything in oil at room temperture. Remember, bacteria doubles about every 10 min. at room temperature. Within 24 hours you would have billions of bacteria.
Botulism in oil even in the fridge is still a risk, since the oil shuts off the air supply, creating an anerobic condition. Just how botulism grows, in the absence of air. Anything in oil should be kept in the fridge and used within a few days.
I would just add the ingredients, put in the fridge immediately and use up within a few days.

Christine,

Canadian author Ellie Topp has in her books several recipes for infusing oils that use a method similar to what Carol describes --- the oils are heated in cans in the oven (I thinka t about 300 degrees; I don't have the book handy) with garlic, herbs, etc. in them, then strained.

This method has been safety-tested and approved by Health Canada. I would probably use it, as Carol suggests, to put in the flavours, then put the olives in and refrigerate.

However, I also am not someone who panics if a vinaigrette sits out overnight. Botulism is very, very rare on non-meat items. (My inner lawyer prompts me to make sure it's clear I'm not ADVOCATING you leave items in oil out overnight and then eat them, just saying what MY comfort level is! ;-) )

Good luck. That sounds yummy!

Zabby

leaving a vinagrette out overnight is quite different, since vinagrettes have vinegar or other acids.

Zabby, take a look at this link

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol10no9/03-0745.htm#11

botulism IS rare, but non-meat items account for a significant number of cases.

Thanks, everybody. I'd looked on the web before I posted my question, and then after seeing some responses looked some more. There's conflicting information. I discovered that olives themselves have been recalled because of botulism contamination. So the salt doesn't inhibit the bacterium, or at least not enough. I also learned that the fresh herbs are suspect too.
I really am surprised that publishers' lawyers don't make sure cookbooks are checked for this. The recipe is from the new edition of Tapas.
Carol, doesn't heating change the flavor of the cold-pressed oil? I guess it has to get to a certain temperature and stay there a while too?
I think the best thing will be to make only as much as I'll eat within a week, maybe steeping some olives in hot oil and some in the fridge.

Recently, I had bought soem special olive oil from the lkocal BJ's. It was also unfiltered and you could see particles in it floating around. Not only was it coled pressed, but also not filtered much. I suppose you could heat the oil to about 160-170 degrees, and because your adding garlic and such, it would probably be safe enough in the fridge, and not relaly lose much of its 'character'.

Ellie Topp has a graduate degree in food science and microbiology, so I trust her credentials. The method she developed for infusing oils has been tested and then approved by the Canadian government.

My thought is you need only a little oil to infuse the garlic in; it need not be cold-pressed. I'd probably use a small amount of a "light" olive oil to carry the flavor of the garlic, strain the garlic out and then mix that "garlic oil concentrate" so to speak, with a greater amount of cold-pressed oil for the recipe itself. That way you don't run the risk of damaging the character of the more delicate cold-pressed oil.

Regardless (allowing for not having seen the recipe), I think you're right to make only small amounts at a time and to refrigerate.

Regarding the book itself, one thing we've discussed quite a number of times on this Forum is variations from country to country in approaches to food safety and assignment of risk.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Making Flavoured Oils

>> I discovered that olives themselves have been recalled because of botulism contamination. So the salt doesn't inhibit the bacterium, or at least not enough. I also learned that the fresh herbs are suspect too.

Yes, though completely dried herbs don't seem to be a concern. It seems to be the vegetable matter (garlic, olives, fresh herbs) in oil (which keeps out air) that creates a potential environment for that nasty botulism.

Zabby

kayskats,

Thanks for posting the link --- the more hard facts the better, as far as I'm concerned!

I shd have specified that the stats I looked at were from Canada (where the cases resluting from home-preserved fish & meat, mostly in the arctic, where the majority).

I probably should have not said anything at all, really. Discussing this subject online can a be a little fraught. I will simply repeat that I, like Carol, trust Ellie Topp and Health Canada, and leave it at that. ;-)

Zabby

hey zabby, didn't realize the stats were Canadian... makes sense though. Alaska contributed more cases (BY FAR) than any other US state.

It IS a very "fraught" topic -- but this forum is the best vehicle I've found to make some sort of sense out a very complicated issue. I hope we never stop sharing information and thoughts. Goodness knows, there a plethora of misinformation floating around out there and it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I have bought Ellie Topp's book and am becoming a great admirer of the common sense evident throughout. She projects great concern, but not paranoia.
I sometimes drift a bit toward paranoia, until I remind myself that botulism is a real concern but far from the only concern. Listeria for example affects (and kills) far more people than botulism. Given my age and love of refrigerated-not-processed pickles, I'm probably a prime target.

BUT I'm not about to give up my half-sours.
Kay

I left off a sentence above. I'm not about to give up my half sours -- I just don't make them myself. I go to the deli and fish a couple out of the barrell. Kay

kay,

I have a tendency to remind people that botulism is really rare, especially from home-canned goods, because it can be so scary to some folks to hear so much talk about it.

But like with a lot of risks, the fact that it is rare is combined with the fact that it is REALLY, REALLY, REALLY nasty.

It seems to me that in today's society people are generally more afraid of really really really bad risks that are really rare (like dying in an airline crash or being hurt by a stranger) than ones that are much more common (like being hurt in a car crash or being hurt by someone you know).

That Ellie Topp book started from a TV show on Canadian cable, btw. I never saw the show, but I've been thinking that we need a U.S. show about canning, because let's face it, TV is where the money is. My guess is that that's why they were able to afford to test all those Topp recipes; no mere book publisher could afford that, I bet. The lack of resources available for testing recipes seems to really be limiting innovation. After all, for the most part only Jardin/Alltrista/Ball/Bernardin makes any money from home canners.

So, we've got to give it a little sizzle and get it on the air. Maybe our Annie can be the host .... ;-)

Zabby

Christine, Does the recipe call for fresh olives?

Could you post the Thyme-Scented Olives recipe. I'd be interested in reading it.

Thanks.

Michelle

I'm wondering if there's a difference in risk depending upon the type of olive. OK, that may be getting a little esoteric, but perhaps it would be erroneous to conclude that the risks are equivalent for canned American-style olives in liquid and say European cured olives of various kinds.

Personally I don't worry too much about these sorts of marinated tapas-type recipes. I'm not sure why. Maybe by the time I get to these things I've worn out my capacity for worry.

It's ironic that farm kids, who're raised with a good amount of dirt and exposure to uhm. . . "substances" that would make some people cringe, have much stronger immune systems and a lower incidence of asthma and allergies.

I wandered off-topic, but it is something to contemplate. If we eliminate all contaminants and all risk, will we eventually survive only in hyper-sterile environments like the boy in the bubble?

(Speaking as someone who is irked we can't import raw cheeses from France and who ate, G*d forbid, dry-cured wild boar prosciutto a friend smuggled into the country.)

Carol

Don't get me started on Cheese and the Nanny State! Ugh!

The recipe is a little vague about the type of olive. I posted a question about it on the cooking forum, asking Sharon in the Canary Islands (part of Spain) what she thinks Casas meant by a "7 oz. jar of large green Spanish olives."
Sharon confirmed my suspicion that our jars of squishy things with pimentos can't be what she had in mind. Funny, this is an American book.

I bought two kinds of olives from the Italian deli stand at market, big Italian green ones with pits, and big Spanish green ones stuffed with pimentos, planning to remove the pimentos. Neither kind came in a jar. Thought I'd try both.

Here is a link that might be useful: What kind of olives in Aceitunas al Tomillo?

Here you go, Michelle. The directions are slightly rephrased -- I copied the recipe from a book I've already returned to the library. From Tapas by Penelope Casas.

Thyme-Scented Green Olives (Aceitunas al Tomillo)

Prepare several days in advance.

7 oz. jar large green Spanish olives
1/4 cup extra-virgin olive oil
2 cloves garlic, lightly crushed and peeled
6 Tb fresh thyme, or 1 Tb dried

Crush the olives slightly (you can hit them with the flat side of a broad knife). Combine all ingredients in a glass jar. Cover tightly and shake to mix. Keep at room temperature for 24 hours, then refrigerste for at least a few days.
The olives will keep for many weeks. Bring to room temperature to serve.

maybe not so esoteric, Carol, re the different kinds of olives ... this is a Q&A from Missouri families by Dr. Andress (wonder why I couldn't find this by searching the NCHFP)

http://missourifamilies.org/quick/nutritionqa/nutqa160.htm

And yes, Carol, I really believe we are sanitizing and over medicating ourselves into real trouble ...
Zabby, I think it's the feeling of having no control that makes us so fearful of some things. If the botulism toxin gave off some odor or visual clue, it wouldn't be nearly so frightening. It's strange that we feel so in control when driving.

Kay

Botulism is scary and rightly so. The invisible menace, for sure.

That recipe is simple enough I think I'd just go with the kind of olive that has a flavor profile I find appealing. I don't know why, but I'd be inclined to add some strips of lemon zest. I can just "see" it in the mixture.

Carol

hey cloudy christine is "Nanny" like "Big Brother"? -Kay

No, Kay, Nanny genuinely wants to protect us. We are all children who can't be allowed to decide what cheese to eat. Even cheeses made in France for 500 years might not be safe, and you can't be too careful, after all.

like I said, Big Brother ...

I have a different questions that relates to the safety questions here. I have a jar of artichoke hearts in the fridge, a big jar from Costco. I've had it for months. It contains both oil and vinegar, and the oil sits in a pretty thick layer on top of the artichokes and brine.

Should I be worried about safety, because the oil is creating an anaerobic environment underneath? I've been eating these sporadically in uncooked pasta sauce with no ill effect. Now I want to bake them inside some turnovers to bring to the ALS fundraising walk in my city. Of course I don't want to put strangers at risk, especially not sick strangers. Should I throw out the artichokes and stop buying big jars?

If I buy new artichokes, can I assume a newly opened commercial jar is safe, or should I forget the artichokes for this potentially immune-compromised population?

Melissa

I would not be concerned about a new jar. In order to be sold commercially the artichokes have to meet stringent requirements. My guess is the artichokes are acidified before being placed in the marinade.

However, I would not serve the product from the old jar of artichokes. I'm a big fan of Costco and I have purchased these artichokes myself, but more and more I'm decanting these big containers, dividing and freezing.

Carol

OK, thanks Carol. If I make an artichoke recipe for the walk, I will buy a new jar for sure.

The big jar is exciting to have on hand, but it doesn't save money if I don't use the whole jar before it becomes questionable. I'm thinking of not rejoining Costco when my membership expires. Most of the bigger packages, e.g. paper products, aren't any cheaper than the equivalent cost at Target or a good supermarket sale. Feta and capers are definitely cheaper, but I seriously doubt I'm saving $50 a year by belonging. It is fun shopping there though.

Melissa

Oils do thicken when cold. The use of preservatives are also used in commerically made oil based foods. They inject nitrogen, as they do with store bought mayonaise. Some makers add vitamin E to the oil to reduce rancidity issues. Extreme sterile environments and high vacuum processes are also used in canning. There are also Sams Club (Walmart) and Costco. All seem to charge about the same for 1 yr membership. I have both Bj's and Costco cards. Sometimes you can get a differnet product the other will not offer.

Go ahead and get a new jar and make the treat.
Trust me, as long as ALS patients can eat they will savore all foods.
It's not their immune system, but the spinal nerves, the progression cannot be stopped.
Mom died of this in 1984, been there.

Thanks busylizzy. I know it doesn't affect the immune system per se, I just thought I had heard that it might be somehow auto-immune related. That certainly could have been about Huntington's Disease or Crohn's/colitis, because I have friends who are fundraising for those lately.

So sorry to hear about your mom. It's an awful disease. One thing I like about this fundraiser is that the ALS Association provides services to families in addition to supporting research.

Melissa

Hi was given black olives from a friend tree and would like to know what is the best way to dry them with salt and how long do I wait befor I can put in to a jar with oil