I am new to this forum but have been composting for years; have three large bins going right now! Which is almost kinda funny since I had to go buy some bagged stuff because none of the three are ready yet! I am very excited to read the stuff on here! I am no expert at all - but maybe the thing that is of concern is not botulism but e-coli? Which would be something that would be somewhat of risk if using manure? Of course, she didn't mention using manure, just a worry about rotting veggies but e-coli is the only pathogen that comes to my mind (I'm trying in vain to remember the last book on composting I read). This book warned against using manure for "manure tea" because of the risk of e-coli. It said to use only thoroughly composted compost to brew the stuff. I do use manure in my compost since I have horses but no longer add any poo to my brew :) Lynn

Dave, didn't even realize I was correcting you...saw you suggested a search and figured I would recommend my favorites real quick. Anyway, just to clarify for anyone who didn't know...the Ball Complete Book and the Ball Blue Book are different. The Blue Book is small and cheap. The Complete Book is at least $20 and it's much, much bigger with tons of recipes, including some really interesting combinations. It also includes all the directions you need for the canning process. The Blue Book, at least the older editions, is mostly about the canning process and doesn't have as many recipes, mostly directions for tomatoes, plain jam/jelly with pectin, etc. Make sure you're buying the one you want. Melissa

How much of a safety factor is built into the recommended processing times? The times provided in various modern canning books tend to be very sweeping in some ways yet specific in others. For example, vegetable pressure-canner processing times range from asparagus (25min) to whole kernel corn (55 min). Yet dried beans processing times don't very except for container size. If I understand correctly, the goal is to get the internal temperature of the item to 240deg (achieved by venting your canner completely and bringing the pressure to 10psi @STP) I've read on some websites that only 4 minutes at the 240deg temperature is required to kill the spores. I suspect then that the different cooking times reflect the ability of the food item to internally transfer heat throughout the entire container (I understand this is largely due to density, plant chemistry, and the cell structure). So if my understanding is accurate, there should be different cooking times for dried beans based on: 1. bean density/moisture content. 2. size of the bean. 3. type of bean. Yes, it is much safer to make a generic recommendation and err on the side of safety. This said, unnecessary processing reduces the quality of the product. So I undertook an experiment: Last week, I processed a full canner load (18 * pint/500ml jars) of red kidney, turtle, and garbanzo beans. I vented vigourously for 10 minutes, and processed for 75 minutes at 11-13pounds. Tasting the beans the next day, I found them all to be way too soft. As well, the intergrity of each bean suffered (splitting, disintergrating, colour change). Today I did another load of the same beans but processed them for 60 minutes instead of the recommended 75min. The results: 1. The turtle beans texture and appearance in the jar was very close to commercially canned beans. And they tasted just the same. 2. Red kidney beans were softer than commercial products but looked the same. 3. Garbanzo beans were a wee bit harder compared to commercially canned beans but similar in firmness to non-canned samples. Appearance wise they were similar to the commercial products. Each of the beans exhibited different results from processing. These leads me to think that USDA should develop bean-specific processing times. Does anyone know what commercial canners do? And how much extra processing time is required to go say from a safety confidence level of 99.99% to 99.9999%

The vinegar should be boiling - it won't burn the sugar. If he's getting it close to boiling (not just warm) it may be OK but jars should be processed in boiling water. *IF* he's using straight vinegar, then they're probably OK to open and stick in the fridge even a couple of days after they were made. Even if they never sealed (better that way - botulism needs low-oxygen environment). I don't know if I'd keep them on the shelf - certainly not long-tern. If he's mixing vinegar and water without following an approved recipe (at least half vinegar, depending on how tightly the slices are packed and how much onion - which is very watery), warming it just enough to dissolve the sugar, and not processing the jars (but they seal b/c it's hot enough to do that - called "open kettle" method), then I wouldn't touch them, not even to put in the fridge, since botulism can grow to toxic levels within 48 hours. If they never seal, then botulism shouldn't grow, but other yucky things can if not enough vinegar and/or not heat processed. Really, if he wants to keep making these, he should use approved recipes including processing times. Here is a very useful site Here is a link that might be useful: NCHFP