Well, there's some kind of law in Florida that says an HOA can't forbid you to use a renewable energy source. For example, many HOA's will say that you can't put up a clothes line, but that is actually an illegal stipulation. The solar power company that came to present at my husband's company mentioned that he'd fought HOA's with great success, so you might want to look up this law. Not sure whether it would apply here, but it's worth a try...

Cheers!
Heather W

Here is a link that might be useful: Our Home Construction Journal

That is really a shame because you obviously put some thought into making it inconspicuous by matching the colors of the siding and trim of your home. Do you think they might approve it if you screened it with either gray or white fence panels? And I'd definitely go with Heather's angle of emphasizing the "green" aspect of it too.

Oh my gosh! Unbelievable!!! I would be ecstatic and proud to have you as my neighbor. Your home and garden look immaculate. You even painted the barrels like your home, and you are setting a wonderful example for the rest of the world. You couldn't have done it any more beautifully.... and they're still complaining! I agree, I think there must be some agency that will (should) protect your rights to better water conservation efforts. Contact your county sources and ask them to help. Send them this photo. Please let us know how this evolves.

Anna

I think I definitely would not send smiley Dee the contact information for the community directory. How unprofessional and insulting.

Every time I hear one of these HOA horror stories it makes my blood boil. Really really small people in need of a hobby.

Maureen

I agree that what you are doing is wonderful and that HOA's get carried away, but the article states you must present your intentions and submit plans. Maybe at this time you can meet with them and discuss the benefits of rain barrels and offer to install a privacy screen. A couple of white vinyl fence panels shouldn't cost too much.
When our HOA was trying to become active again we got a letter about our garage window a/c unit being visable from the street. DH removed it. They never got the new HOA off the ground.
Good Luck and keep us posted.

And to think that you are the"owner of the property" You pay your taxes then these bozos come along...HOA not for me.
You're right Maureen, I too get my blood boiling on this issue.
Felix

Thanks for the messages. I will immediately look up the "green law".

A little about our community.. TWELVE houses, 1.5 acre lots, in Sorrento FL, which as many of you know is part of the greenhouse corrider of Apopka/Zellwood/Mt Dora.. Hardly Windemere/Baldwin Park/ Avalon...

I know the regulation says that I need to apply for modifications. But I honestly believe that HOA guideline was written for people that wanted additions, garages, bonus rooms ext.. Not a rain barrel.

I send them a letter yesterday. Here it is.. A little harsh, but I was hot when I wrote it, and I don't regret anything I wrote!

Dee,
I received your note. Unfortunately the note did not have your address, or phone number. I was resourceful enough to find your address on the Lake County tax appraisers web site.
In response to the letter; We are surprised and annoyed to receive such correspondence, especially in such an unprofessional manner. We moved out here to avoid nit picky and ridiculous homeowners and their association's. You can find all of my contact information from the registration sheet that I handed in to the president of the HOA upon moving in to Eden Estates.
On to the subject at hand. What in particular is the issue with the rain barrels? Is it that they were not approved or that they are unacceptable in nature? Once again, I would ask these questions in person, but your notice gave no way of contacting you!
I have attached a diagram of the barrels. Perhaps you would be kind enough to pass them on to the powerful architectural review board for their blessing. I have also attached a small article explaining the benefits of rain barrel, perhaps you will find the article interesting. Rain barrels are actually quite beneficial to the community (some might opine even better than HOAs) they conserve water, are good for the environment, and ensure that those of us on wells will have clean potable water for at least the near future. I have also attached the regulations for the St. Johns Water management areas. Perhaps you remember the wild fires that threatened our homes in May?!

Respectfully,
Austin Hardy

I have gotten a letter like this in the past (dog related) and would like to add my comment that your particular letter is one of the most polite I have seen (mine made no attempt at civility).
What I don't understand is that she says that someone should have contacted you in person in advance.Sounds like this letter came out of the blue and that can be very upsetting (as was my case).
I agree with msmarion that it is probably more a case that they wanted to review your plans in advance. I know in our HOA it's not so much "what" people want to do as "how" it is done.
I remember how lovely your raised beds looked in photos and how excited you were with your new garden and house. Don't be put off by this letter-use the opportunity to educate your neighbors on the benefits of rain barrels.
In reality the most power that HOA's have is peer pressure. It would be very difficult for them to make you remove them or even fine you. Courts generally support the homeowner.

Good luck.

P.S. Maybe they thought those barrels are a homemade still?

Thank you all so much for all you do for me, each other, and the community at large. I was able to find the following statute on line..

Listed below is the text of the Florida Statute Section 163.04.

Florida Statute, Section 163.04

Energy devices based on renewable resources.-

(1) Notwithstanding any provision of this chapter or other provision of general or special law, the adoption of an ordinance by a governing body, as those terms are defined in this chapter, which prohibits or has the effect of prohibiting the installation of solar collectors, clotheslines, or other energy devices based on renewable resources is expressly prohibited.

(2) No deed restrictions, covenants, or similar binding agreements running with the land shall prohibit or have the effect of prohibiting solar collectors, clotheslines, or other energy devices based on renewable resources from being installed on buildings erected on the lots or parcels covered by the deed restrictions, covenants, or binding agreements. A property owner may not be denied permission to install solar collectors or other energy devices based on renewable resources by any entity granted the power or right in any deed restriction, covenant, or similar binding agreement to approve, forbid, control, or direct alteration of property with respect to residential dwellings not exceeding three stories in height. For purposes of this subsection, such entity may determine the specific location where solar collectors may be installed on the roof within an orientation to the south or within 45 ° east or west of due south provided that such determination does not impair the effective operation of the solar collectors.

(3) In any litigation arising under the provisions of this section, the prevailing party shall be entitled to costs and reasonable attorney's fees.

(4) The legislative intent in enacting these provisions is to protect the public health, safety, and welfare by encouraging the development and use of renewable resources in order to conserve and protect the value of land, buildings, and resources by preventing the adoption of measures which will have the ultimate effect, however unintended, of driving the costs of owning and operating commercial or residential property beyond the capacity of private owners to maintain. This section shall not apply to patio railings in condominiums, cooperatives, or apartments

Now the only question is do I ask a lawyer friend of mine to forward this to Dee. Or do I do it personally?

Austin
TY for posting the statute. I will keep it for when I want to install solar hot water and my HOA says whoa.

Your last question--I believe in non-escalation so I'd email it to the Executive committee (not just the secretary). I have found when dealing with these situations that getting the info directly to the decision-makers is preferable to relying on someone else to get it to them.

Denise

BTW we were near Sorrento last week stopping at Seminole Springs Farm. Pretty area and great rose/herb nursery.

I was mostly kidding with the Lawyer comment. But it would be funny to see their reaction to that.

As far as the email. If I respond via email she will have my email. And I don't want that. I will do another drop in the front door of her place tonight. Possibly with another drop scheduled for the president of the HOA (dee's next door neighbor, and dad, Bob).

Glad you enjoyed your time up here. It is a great part of Florida. Very rural and rolling, unusual for FL!

Hi, Your rain barrels look so nice I can't understand anyone complaining about them. Some people just live to make life miserable for others. My mom has a HOA that prohibits so many things, including a clothes line. She will be interested to know that is illegal. When we were looking for a house a HOA is one of the things we ran away from. Good luck to you!

I realize that many of you have probably had bad experiences with homeowners associations. I agree that Dee's letter is unprofessional, incomplete and needed serious work prior to being sent to Austin. However, I do feel that Austin is overreacting to the situation due to anger and bitter feelings toward homeowner associations in general.

The letter doesn't state that Austin cannot have the rain barrels or that the HOA board intends to fight him on them or that they intend to forbid him from having them.

Yes, he has every right to have rain barrels, but in general everyone must follow the written rules of the community in which they live, which in Austin's case means submitting plans prior to building any structure.

I'm guessing the intent of Dee's letter was to "nip this in the bud" before it becomes an addition to the house that did not have prior approval, rather than the mean-spirited HOA attack that he took it to be. Sorry, but I just disagree on that point.

That being said, it might interest all of you to know of a recent addition to the Florida Statutes (Chapter 720.3035) effective July 1, 2007 concerning architectural control covenants, parcel owner improvements, rights and privileges. (See link below.)

Basically, based on Statute 163.04 the HOA can't prohibit Austin from having rain barrels and based on Statute 720.3035 the association cannot just arbitrarily make up rules about where his rain barrels can be located or what they must look like, regardless of whether or not it says they can do that in his HOA declaration.

Being that Austin is in such a small community, unless they are professionally managed, they probably don't even know about Statute 720.3035 yet.

If I were Austin, I'd get REAL familiar with my HOA declaration and HOA published rules and regulations, to make myself adequately armed for when the HOA decides to really come after me for the rain barrels.

The key is that architectural control and approval is no longer subject to the opinions and desires of the board of directors. Architectural guidelines must be published and distributed to the homeowners in order to be enforceable. I doubt Austin's declaration or written rules and regulations specifically address rain barrels and I suspect, at most, the HOA has the power to require him to screen them from view of the street. I do this for a living. They don't have nearly as much control as they used to have.

By the way, Austin, I think you did a superb job on the rain barrels. Very nice.

Here is a link that might be useful: Florida Statute 720.3035

Austin, I congratulate you for not letting the HOA run you over.

To anyone, how is the rule on 'making rules'? Is it ok that the HOA changes rules constantly?

The HOA ruling in my neighborhood started out with reasonable rules we read before making the decision to move here. Over the past 4 years, the HOA decided to change the rules as they please, from bricks are allowed as edging to 'not allowed' in a matter of 30 days. We submitted a request for adding a flowerbed with the existing brick edging (we checked their rules and brick was ok-ed) - got the letter back 'denied' no brick allowed (we checked the rules again - and sure thing, the bricks are a no-go)
Weird rules are being made, like: Palm trees were forbidden 4 years ago, even though the builders added (and still add) roebellinis to the front yard. Four certain palms are allowed by now (roebellinis are not included), since the subdevision developer has those on his property. One home owner planted 15 palms and the HOA told him he has to remove 3, since they only approve 12.

Evelyn

In general, the rule on "making rules" is that the rules have to be published and available to the members of the HOA at all times. There's not usually a restriction on how often that the board can change the rules, other than they have to hold a meeting, give notice of the meeting, allow members of the HOA to attend board meetings and keep minutes from the board meetings available for review by the HOA members. The above is a sample of the way my HOA works. How yours operates depends on your HOA bylaws.

Just because something was allowed in the past doesn't mean that won't change. If you want the rules to be changed less frequently, you could attend the annual meeting and make a motion to amend the governing documents to state that the rules and regulations promulgated by the board of directors be restricted from change more often than ___ times per ____ (you fill in the blanks with what you prefer), and then hopefully you can get enough of your neighbors to vote in agreement with your motion.

If the problem you are having is with a particular director on your HOA board, there may be a provision in your governing documents that says the majority of the HOA members can vote out any of the directors. Of course, you would have to be willing to attend an HOA meeting, make such a motion to remove that director, get enough votes from your HOA neighbors to remove that director and then elect a replacement director.

I don't EVEN want to think about HOA's! Everything about them makes me angry!! I know some people enjoy what they feel are plusses in having a body assert control over how a community looks and feels, but I'm a person who thinks if I own the property, I should have first say-so in what happens on it. Yes, I do consider my neighbors and try to be a good neighbor, but if I want to dry my clothes in fresh air and sunshine, I'm going to do it. So I just made sure when we went house-hunting that our realtor knew not to even show us property in areas with HOA's.

Austin, I feel for you. It isn't that what Dee (as a less than professional representative of your HOA) wrote is so horrible. I'm sure you can get it sorted out in your favor, especially with the help of those statutes you've found. But for me, the real issue is that she thinks that as a voice for the HOA has the right to do so at ALL. I say DOWN with HOA's! I'd rather take the chance that my next-door neighbor will turn out to be a pig than have anyone tell me how to paint my house or plant my garden.

But then, I'm just a rebel at heart...what can I say?

I wish you the best in your future dealings with them, and I think your rain barrels are GREAT! I feel sure you will end up being allowed to keep them. And someone suggested white lattice around them...that would be really pretty, and not just for placating the HOA. It just would look nice, especially with a pretty vine (like indigo butterfly pea vine) growing on it.

Good luck!
Marcia

I will wait and see what they will do with the letter and plans that I sent them yesterday. Only when they threaten to have me move them will I present the current florida Statute.

Very nice! You obviously went out of your way to build an attractive unit. Good luck to you with the HOA. Sometimes people cannot accept something because it is different from the rest of the flock.

UPDATE -
We are removing the rain barrels. So that's it, right?

Girls and boys, that is just the beginning. I was wrong to erect the barrels without permission. So, I will remove them.

As soon as they are removed I will hand deliver the plans, drawings, and proposals for MORE rain barrels (kind of like gremlins, add water, they multiply). I will inform the HOA that statute 163.04 gives me the right to erect them, and more or less whereve I need to to ensure proper functioning.
And statute 720.3035 limits their authority unless specifically called out in the CCR. My choice of materials for the structure is exactly the same as my front porch.

Not sure if I will bring the legal threats into the first letter, or if I will wait for a rebutal first.

Wish me luck. It is nice to know that the law is behind me on this one. Also nice to know that so many of you are behind me! Thanks!

We just moved from a community where the HOA rules were not enforced. We had 2 and 3 families living in one house and 4 to 8 cars parked in the driveway and lawns. There where houses painted some awful colors and homes not kept in good repair and landscaping that was overgrown. We moved to a new (to us) community that has just gotten a management company to handle their HOA enforcements. Personally I don't think HOAs rules should apply to ME but they should apply to THOSE PEOPLE.

I put my rain barrels in the back yard out of sight...I don't want to see MY rain barrels from the street. I knew what I was getting into when we moved here. I read the rules and although I don't like all of them when so many people live so close to each other I would prefer to have some rules to keep my property values up.

Personally, I would not remove the rain barrels. The section of your bylaws that Dee quoted is so ambiguous that according to 720.3035, they cannot prohibit you from installing the rain barrels where you did based on the wording of that section of the bylaws. I would wait for their reply before taking any action. Then I would offer to screen them from view of the street/neighbors by installing a piece of lattice and some sort of climbing plant. They should be quite satisfied with that resolution.

Also, I can give you names of a couple of attorneys in Orlando that handle this sort of thing. E-mail me if you want that info.

I know many of you are going to think I'm crazy for this, but bear with me and read to the end please. I'm sorry you are going through this with your HOA but there are ways to deal with it that give you the moral high-ground and avoid conflict. And you get to keep the barrels where they are.

First of all, don't remove the rain barrels.

Second, the HOA is within their rights to tell you that you have to submit a request. You moved into an HOA neighborhood so you have to live with them now. I did too and I've had a few letters I didn't like, but I know that's part of the bargain. You may not have interpreted the Association's laws to mean your rain barrels, but obviously they did.

Write up your 'plan', include photos and diagrams, include the Green Law and think about including a couple options for them to consider. Such as 1. they approve the barrel installation they way it is, 2. they agree to approve it if you put up one or two sections of fence to block the view of the barrels from the street, or 3. they agree to approve it if you plant a shrub or two in front of the barrels to block their view from the street, or 4. whatever creative idea you can come up with.

They are more likely to approve the barrels than to ask you to remove them. They just have to go through the process. If they don't with you, then they are on shaky legal ground the next time when they want to ask your neighbor to remove the 15 foot dayglo orange squirrel statue from his yard.

You are a long way from needing an attorney. Why pay an attorney to do something you can do yourself. At this point, the HOA hasn't been unreasonable (not really, although the smiley face is seriously irritating!) and they have given you the opportunity to respond. Attorneys are the last step in any process and almost no good comes of their involvement. Threatening to take legal action doesn't do any good because HOA's know they are within their rights and don't care how many attorneys you know. You either talk to an attorney or you don't; skip the threat.

The end result should be that you get to keep your barrels, the HOA is reasonably happy, your neighbors are reasonably happy, no attorney has made more money off your problem, and everyone is happy knowing a problem was tackled and resolved. You continue living where you do with no hard feelings on any side and more rainbarrels sprouting up all over the neighborhood.

Kate

The thing that bugs me is that you CAN NOT "erect" a rain barrel. This isn't a playground set or a lanai or a deck. It's a damn plastic barrel and it's enviromentally helpful. What the hell is their problem?

On the other hand, our subdivision's HOA's laws expired years ago and no one ever reapplied to the county to start them up again, so we only go by county rules. Which means we get the 5 cars parked on the lawn, half with no tags, until the code enforcement officer makes a stop by once a year.

Is there no happy middle ground between HOA and no HOA?

Julie

I think the middle ground is "mob rule". Storming the castle with pitchforks, etc.

Julieyankfan, I think you misunderstood. The HOA is not saying that he cannot install rain barrels. They are simply giving him a (mildly) hard time about the fact that he installed an improvement without submitting plans in advance and that the improvement can be seen from the street. The resolution is to "hide" it (behind a fence, shrub, what-have-you). The Florida laws are clear. An HOA cannot prohibit you from having rain barrels for irrigation.

You can call code enforcement any time to complain about any of your neighbors...HOA or not. You don't have to wait for their annual visit.

The barrels are down. And the plans are on the desk of the HOA.. Below is what I submitted.

Dear Executive Committee and Architectural Review Board,
We appologize for the erection of the rain barrels without proper notification and submission of plans. The Rain Barrels have been removed, and we would like to start with a fresh slate.

Attached is the proposal for rain barrels we would like to install on our property. These plans have been drafted to meet structural integretity, the harmony of the current design, and landscape of the home, the plans meet or exceed all Florida Building Code.

We have read the HOA CC&Rs in their entirety and find nothing to prohibit the immediate approval of these plans.

Respectfully,

Austin Hardy

Solstice, I think it was funny that you said to storm the "castle" and he lives on "Kingdom" court.lol

It sounds like you have done everything you can to make them happy and go along with the HOA rules. The ball is in their court.

Nativemel, yes, I know you can call code enforcement anytime and you have to give your name, address and phone number, which they will give to the person you complain about and I really don't want the local drug dealer knowing that I complained about his property. These people will retaliate against you.

Julie