Seedling revisted, a question to hybridizers...

14 years ago

I cant ignore this one, its my longest scape at 35 inches, two way branching at 18 bud count , not bad for this second year seedling, its also hardy. Flowers are at 6 inches to 6.5 the largest. Full round form. But really sets it apart is its color, its drenched in a luminous coral.

My question to all of you out there who have been crossing for years is, what would you do with this one? cross with some more mellow color with more of a edge? I think the color is worthy enough of a release, but it might need more work in the edge department...

Silverkelt

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Comments (10)

lilynut
14 years ago
Well I need more information.

Is it a TET or DIP? 2 way branching...is that 2 laterals plus the terminal Y/W? Color doesn't make an intro. Although it is a nice clear color. Plant habits is what really makes an intro.

I know if it only had 18 buds in my seedling bed that it wouldn't pass muster for the cut. Of course were not Maine either, so maybe a BC of 18 is good. We are shooting for atleast 25 and preferably more with 2 lateral branches plus the terminal Y/W.

Fill us in more and you'll probably get more answers.

Below is a good article for you to read about what a northern hybridizer should be shooting for.

Here is a link that might be useful: Northern Hybridizing
Ed
14 years ago
I agree, the color is spectacular. Only you can decide if it's worthy of registration. There are plenty of flowers registered that have fewer branches and buds than yours. And lots more with ugly colors. It's up to you.

I personally would like it to be a little rounder, flatter, with a heavier edge and maybe a watermark eyezone. I would probably cross it with 'Ed Brown', 'Edith Sliger' and JT Davis'. 'Chance Encounter' and 'Victorian Lace' would be other possibilities.
Ed
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An understanding of genetics would be very useful in successfully hybridizing daylilies. Whether or not the daylilies are pollinated by hand or by bees has nothing to do with the outcome. It depends entirely upon the genetic makeup of each parent. The most carefully calculated cross between two outstanding cultivars can still produce a wide variety in the offspring. Applying one's knowledge of genetics when cross-pollinating daylilies does not insure absolute results. It just merely ups the odds. I am certainly no expert on genetics, but permit me a simplification. Crossing any one daylily with another will produce a variety of results, because each parent is passing down to the offspring one of a pair of characteristics inherited from the grandparents. These characteristics may or may not be visible in the parents, depending upon which one of the pair of alleles is dominant. Take just the one characteristic of color for example: even if the offspring turns out to be a red daylily, it could still be carrying a recessive gene for pink, yellow, orange, peach, lavender, white, etc., which could then become visible (dominant) in the next generation. Multiply this by any number of characteristics (i.e. height, branching, color, form of blossom, ruffles vs no ruffles, health, vigor, etc.) and you have an almost infinite number of combinations that can be displayed in the progeny. Here are some good links that will help explain what may occur when either someone or some insect cross-pollinates two dayliles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance http://www.ndsu.edu/instruct/mcclean/plsc431/mendel/mendel3.htm http://biology.about.com/library/weekly/aa110603a.htm You must have some very active bees in your area. I have never had a daylily become pollinated by "accident." If you like the daylilies in your garden that have produced seed pods, and you have room to sustain the resulting seedlings until they bloom, you might find it interesting to see what is produced. Then if you don't like what you see in the offspring, you can toss the plant into your compost heap. To keep daylilies from dropping seeds, simply remove the growing seed pod while still green. If you want to keep the seeds, then wait until the seed pod begins to open, and remove it at that time, before the seed is dropped. So far, I've never had any seeds germinate spontaneously in the ground. Your soil and climate conditions must be much more favorable than here in Texas. Daylilies do multiply by sending out new fans around the base of the plants. They usually are small, and could possibly be mistaken for seedlings. Hybridizing is a form of gambling and it's very addictive. You win some and you lose some. I have some beautiful, exciting seedlings, and some real dogs. It's great fun and a fascinating hobby. Nancy
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The AHS recognized originator is the person who owned all of the seedling when it bloomed for the first time. So you may buy seed or an unbloomed seedling and be considered the originator when you grow it to first bloom. Ed
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The F designation basically means generation. F1 is the 1st generation, F2 the 2nd, etc... You grow seeds from Dorothy Benedict and those seedlings are DB F1's. Seedlings from those seedlings are DB F2's... The standard cross pattern is Pod Parent x Pollen Parent.
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Cultivars are selections but do not necessarily breed true to type. If you grow seedlings from them the seedlings will be variable and not necessarily true to the parent. The genes can be variable. So in your example/question #1. The seedlings will not be 'osakasuki'. It is hard to say what you will get but say you got 100 seeds on your plant from that cross and grew them out....you would probably get all types. Maybe some red, some green, they would vary in leaf shape and growth rate etc. Lets say you grew all 100 seedlings to maturity but there was one in that 100 that really caught your eye. It had a good growth rate, nice shape, disease resistance, great color.......lets say it was exceptional and really stood out from the crowd. Perhaps that one would be worth giving a cultivar name. Perhaps you register is as Acer palmatum 'Heruga'. To keep those characteristics true, so other people could grow it, it would need to be propagated from cuttings/graftings. Some of the others in that same seedling group may be mediocre or even ugly and/or poor growers. Well that gets tricky. Most likely not. Species are species for a reason and don't go randomly mix. There may be a genetic incompatibility, or there may be a difference in flowering time, or flower structure or etc. etc. Obviously some closely related plants (Or animals) can cross, sometimes made easier with man's help, but species don't generally cross easily, and it is hard to predict what will and what won't except by trial and error. So it would be more likely to be able to cross a A. palmatum with perhaps a closely related maple, less likely (and probably not at all)with an A. rubrum, even less likely (impossible) with an oak tree or a rosebush or...... Got I?. Some (not all) closely related species can cross. Similar in the animal world. You can cross a donkey and a horse (or even a tiger and a lion). Such crosses would not happen in the wild (and in these animal examples the offspring are sterile.......which can (or not) happen with plant hybrids too). Some do cross. Oaks are notorious for crossing with closely related species and if you are identifying oaks in the wild you will often find trees with intermediate characteristics between two CLOSELY related species. However, ifspecies mixed too easily......there would be no species.....everything would be a blend of everything else. Similar to #1. Your 'Thunderhead' is a CULTIVAR, so your seedlings could be variable and different. I don't know how easily they cross but if she is a reputable nursery she is probably selling pure seedlings. If you raise seeds of pure species under normal conditions you normally will get pure seedlings (of the species). Note if you raise things like citrus or apples from seed you will get a LOT more variability in the seedlings as these manmade plants have fairly complex and variable parentage. The offspring will still be an apple or a citrus but perhaps otherwise very different than the parent plant.
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shive
14 years ago
I love the color! I would cross it to something with a big edge on it, like Zephyr's Song, Walking In Beauty or Last Snowflake.

Debra
opnjmprs
14 years ago
You might also consider crossing it to Karol Emmerich's TIM KORNDER which has 5 branches and a bud count of 20. The other one I'd try to take to it if it were mine is Rice's Katherine Marin. It has a VERY heavy creamy gold edge, nice cream watermark, heavy substance, 4 branches with 6+ buds per banch. I posted pics of both below, but mosly wanted you to notice Katherine Marin's scape....I counted 30 buds on it this morning.

You have a very lovely seedling there!!

Linda

TIM KORNDER

KATHERINE MARIN
northerndaylily
14 years ago
More data...

How sunfast?

How does it open?

What culture do you employ?

What is it out of?

Any idea of the plant habit.. dorm or ??

In the far north.. there's dormant, annual and everything else. Being in Maine allot of that applies.
silverkelt
Original Author
14 years ago
Thanks for the info everyone..

Its a Tet (Berry Patch X Jewel in the Crown) (the rest of this cross has been duds so far, this is by far the best of the lot, a few wont bloom until next year.)

SunFast (fades a little more to a mellow coral, but keeps this color to the end)

18 BC wasnt bad, It was a terrible year, this was by far my best BC on a seedling. I would assume in a year I actually had some sunshine, It would increase to something more reasonable. Though , nothing grown south of me would be as vigorous as would be for them, even in Massachussetts, my season is 2-4 weeks shorter. One of the shortest in the 48 states.

It tries to be a semievergreen, but quite frankly I mark things in more accordance of whats Hardy and whats not, what grows quickly with vigor and blooms. All foilage for me will die back to ground level. But this showed green in late fall and early spring last year, where alot of other seedlings were still waking up.

It has very nice plant habits IMO , but I would agree that it should lay flatter and have more edge distinction. I will try crossing it next year with a variety of things, and see what I get.

LilyNut that article was interesting and I learned some stuff I didnt know, I disagree a little on the rebloom aspect, there really isnt any reason for me to try for rebloom, If a mature clump blooms for 3-4 weeks, well , quite frankly thats half a season for me. Plus I would worry about recessive genes alot. Ive already discovered some of these southern intros Ive used seem to have alot of recessives in them already, where there traits seem hard to pass on. Im all new to this though, so any advise anyone could give , Im more than willing to listen =)...

Thanks All,
Silverkelt
lilynut
14 years ago
Ed, Debra and Linda gace you some good things to cross it with. I myself would try Ruffles Abound for an edge.

The rebloom that Richard's plants have is what I call instant rebloom. Just as the last blooms of the first scape finish a second scape from the same fan starts blooming. Quite an interesting plant habit. If you don't have one of these you need to try Clarification, Mary's Baby or Belle of Ashwood. There is probably a couple more. They open well in cool weather and I would say is something that would be worth you getting to work with.

Besides the instant rebloom they also have a high BC and good branching.

FWIW

Bruce
northerndaylily
14 years ago
You say Mass. ... come up to the tundra.. our season is even shorter.. :). We're on target to match our 'cold summer' of 04.. which saw only 1860 GDD's.

From my view.. you've got a decent sdlng. Likely the result of one overdominant gene for growth vigor and a happy alliance of genes throwing that face & color.

I ask why bother flowering the rest of the cross? Why select from inferior growers.. unless you want to continue another yr of viewing for the future far out. Consider the option of selecting genetics that get it done in YOUR climate.. now.

Seems the factors that impress you are plant habit and color.. you need a better opener with same in the pedigree.. edge--- WHY? What is wrong with a great flower.. great color.. and opens well.. performs in your climate. and does not sport this "edge". IMO... nothing.

Study up on potential mates.. with an eye towards characters expressed and carried in the pedigree that balance off your plant... that'll get it done in YOUR garden.. not some phantom stats under green house/high culture culture. I consider the worst set of characters.. the ones you pay for when making a cross.. all 'the drag' as it were. If you can live with the worst outcomes in a cross... make it.

Names and face pics are nice.. no problem.. but real daylily breeding is nuts and bolts stuff.. knowing your character sets.. what said plants have produced.. how they match up. Sorta like work.. :)
bigriver
14 years ago
Look at PISTACHIO EYES for something new to cross it with. I couldn't resist leaving a new arrival of PE alone, I started dabbing a rebloom scape to OH GREAT ONE from Benz, trying to up the ante with even more ruffling from OH.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:943145}}
northerndaylily
14 years ago
How does PE look after a day of full sun?

Seedling revisted, a question to hybridizers...

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Seedling revisted, a question to hybridizers...

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