Tom: I am not familiar with red pine in your area. Here in northern VA red pine is not an option. In Garrett county MD they are planted for pulpwood, but have problems with beetles and annosus root rot disease after 30 years or so, and no one is keeping any to grow for timber. In my pine plantings, a few of my red pine are beginning to die. I have been very careful to treat all the stumps of any I cut to keep annosus out, so I am not sure what the cause of the mortality is. I haven't confirmed anything. I keep the trees thinned out so they are vigorous, and should resist beetle attacks. I see evidence of beetles, but I am not sure if they are primary or secondary contributors to death. So, in the area of my timberland I would not recommend planting red pine. But your area may be different. You already have native white pine, and I love those. If I were starting over at my timberland with plantings, I would do larch Norway spruce, and white pine as the main species. Does your forester have any recommendations about the red pine? Has he talked about any risks? In my pine plantings, the Norway spruce, the white pine, and the red pine do well together. The Norway spruce started a bit slower than the red and white pines, but they got going fast enough so that they grow up with them well. With the red pine, I was afraid they would be outstripped by the white pine and Norway spruce, but that has not been a problem. The Norway spruce and the white pine are growing faster, and will eventually be much taller, but after about 40 years, they are still compatable. Of course, you can plant them in seperate blocks, or mix them. I would do some of both kinds of plantings. One consideration with the red pine--the trees don't assert dominance in a stand very readily, which means they need artificial thinning to maintain a healthy stand. Norway spruce will sort themselves out very, very readily, with the stronger trees overtopping, and eventually supressing the less vigorous trees, so they don't NEED thinning. I thin mine to enhance growth a bit, and make the stand prettier, but after 200 years, unthinned NS stands will be just as fine as stands that were thinned. The same is true of white pine, but in my experience, the best trees don't assert dominance quite as readily. As for larch, I just don't know. My guess is that they will be like white pine or NS in this regard, but I don't know that for a fact. So, my bias here is to plant much more white pine than red pine, but I am sure that red pine, which I assume is native there, is for you a much better bet than for me here. Some say red pine is native to the area of my timberland, but I really don't agree. There IS an outlier of native red pine in one spot in WV, but for me that doesn't qualify it as native to Garrett County MD or other places where a naturally growing one has never been seen. As for your not focusing on planting tamarack, I agree. The native species are not always best. We have native red spruce in Garrett county, but they are far inferior to Norway spruce--no contest. But if you have a very wet area, go with tamarack. They are short lived compared to other larches, but occasionally some have lived well over 200 years. As for NS seed source--boy, this is tough. I wish I could see your seedlings from Itasca. If some of them are growing very, very fast--that's something! You may not be able to do better. But, are some growing very, very much faster than others? Are there a fair number of "runts." If so, that could indicate that some of the seed is coming from trees not cross polinated. Two possible solutions: you can either plant them at tighter spacings to give you more trees, and thus more really fast growing ones. Or you can try to mix in seedlings from another seed source. The Musser may be a good choice, but, what performs well for me here might not do so well there. Also, You should check and see if Musser has made any changes in the seed they use in the last 6 years or so. If so, I know nothing about what they might be offering now. One thing surprized me a bit with my NS here. The finest strain I have seen in the higher elevations in the Appalachians was a stand planted near Glady, WV. I dug up some seedlings and planted them at my timberland. I since dug three of those up again and planted them here in the hot and dry northern Shenandoah Valley. I am stunned by their performance here--all three rank as the best of those I have planted here, with the understanding that most of the 400 or so I have planted here are too small to really evaluate yet. But that that strain does so well in the cool wet mountain environment, AND down here, has surprised me. Unfortunately the stand near Glady was cut three years ago--a real shame! I am not sure what you should make of all I am telling you here, but NS is a remarkable species in its variation and adapability. Well, keep me posed on your plans and progress. Oh, I am becomming more and more an admirer of Thuja! --spruce

Hi Rick, Great topic. Thank you for posting this interesting question. I'll offer you my take, which is considerably lighter in tone. Do you remember the old TV beer commercials about Miller Lite, Less Filling versus Tastes Great. This is similar to the world of plant classification. Imagine a bunch of plant people at a bar, one side is the ICBN (International Code of Systematic Botany) and the other side is the ICNCP (Internation Code of Nomemclature for Cultivated Plants). The only time that these people talk to each other is after consuming a considerable amount of beer and with much yelling and finger pointing. The only thing that they agree on is to disagree. The ICBN looks at nature (essentially the evolution plants) and the ICNCP looks at human cultivation of plants. The fact that the two groups might be talking about the same plant never is acknowledged. It's just too much fun drinking beer, yelling, and pointing fingers. I'll attempt to take the middle ground and say that both groups are correct and offer some comprimise. Of course, now both groups will start yelling and pointing fingers at me. Alas, so be it. Let's assume that in a well documented observation we find that a Pelican is blown 1000 miles inland by a hurricane. Suppose that Pelicans are not normally observed this far inland. Furthermore, assume that the bird is covered with pollen and it lands, exhausted, in a field of flowers. As it happens, the pollen of a distant species fertilizes the local endemic plant. Since the Pelican is natural and the hurricane is natural, then the plant cross must be a naturally occuring hybrid. Let's call it by my made up name, Flowerium x pelicana. Clearly this is a plant claimed by the ICBN. On the other side, a gardener grows this distant species in a pot on their windowsill and the endemic species grows natively in their backyard. The gardener crosses the two plants with an artists paintbrush and produces a manmade cross. In all ways the manmade cross appears identical to the naturally occuring hybrid. What to do? How is this plant to be identified? The grower consults the ICBN and is booed and hissed out of that section of the bar. A human is clearly not considered part of nature. How could anyone confuse a human intervention with a Pelican being blown inland by a hurricane. Clearly one is natural and one is not. The grower goes to the other section of the bar and is embraced by the ICNCP. After many beers, the ICNCP suggests a name. Let's call the plant, Flowerium Pelicana. So, I offer you this. Call the naturally occuring hybrid by the nothospecies, x pelicana, and call the cultivated plant by the grex, Pelicana. Outraged, both the ICBN and ICNCP threw me out of the bar. Blasphemy!, they yelled at me with fingers pointed. So, I, the gardener, and the Pelican, went home with a six pack and decided to sit around and just admire the plant. The flowers sure are pretty, no matter what the name...

Nice seedlings. Hybrid chestnut - cross between American and Chinese by chance? Wonder how the nuts taste. I heard they do not taste that great, but I would still like to try them. I have had fun starting trees from seeds as well. I have one catalpa from seed that is now around fifty feet high. I have several horse chestnuts/buckeyes (very easy to start) that I started from seeds, the best one is now around twenty feet tall. Decent fall color. Only wish the nuts were edible. I have several eastern white cedars that I started from seed that are now around fifteen feet tall (easy to start). I also have a few black hills spruce, black walnut, white pine, juniper, silver maple, red oak, white oak, green ash, black locust, European and American mountain ash, flowering crab, and Manchurian apricot that I started from seed as well. It was a fun hobby but I have not started any trees from seed in quite a few years because I figured I am now too old to ever see them get big. I would love a hybrid chestnut someday, they have always been on my wish list. Let me know some time if you get a sales scheme figured out. BTW as you stated in your other thread do consider selling at farmers markets, and think about some kind of tie-in to Arbor Day and Earth Day, possible sales to 4H and Scouts for their kids' planting programs, sales at county fairs (out here sales booths are free or inexpensive because it is hard for the small fairs to fill their expo buildings), selling at city-wide garage sales (in towns around here people often divide and sell some nice perennials along with their household crap), and small town business expos. And get some kind of cheap (but professional looking) web site up, if nothing else to be used as a promotional tool and product list that people can reference. Also consider packages such as 5 different evergreens, 5 different hardwoods, 5 different edible nuts, 5 different food for wildlife, 5 different fall colors, 5 different fast growing, five different edible fruit, etc. Give 'em a deal - buy 5 trees get one free or whatever. No matter what, the stock you are selling should always be in good health and be nice quality (it is all about presentation - I for one never buy sickly looking plants), or you will not have a chance against the local established nurseries and cheap mail order products (crappy quality but people get suckered in by cheap prices and a pretty picture). I know the thought sucks but at least consider some kind of product warranty - it would probably help sales by increasing customer comfort level. Find a fair price but do not low ball - if you have good stock then you deserve a fair price. Price too low implies poor quality or some kind of fly-by-night operation. Good luck, and have fun, -Tom

Jericson- I was wondering ....could these be grown as "towers" ...by training the tap root to elongate and thicken? The caudex shape on these seedlings are already showing a tower shaped "trunk". Nice plants. Good luck with your plants. Love reading through your interesting threads. I learn a lot from your photos and well-documented growing experiences. Many thanks. Frank