I could have provided several links and replies to all your questions, but some people like to see personalized answers directed to them and don't wish to bother doing a lot of extra reading.

Alum has NO effect on crispness. Its use was meant to enhance' pucker' when used in high vinegar pickles. as I aid before, its aluminium based, so be careful. Also. I just wrote in great detail a very long and very accurate method to use pickling lime. Its use is mainly to help keep the acidic vinegar from breaking down the cucumbers. Its just soaked in it overnight. The steps involved are many. Pickle Crisp, was I also just mentioned in another thread is a much easier way to deal with getting vinegar to act a bit more gently in long storage in pickles. Ball Pckle Crisp requires 1 1/2 TEASPOONS per QUART, whereas the generic is TWO TEASPOONS PER QUART. If its pints, then you simply HALF that amount. The difference is due to the larger granule size of teh generic. I weighed both in mgs and thats the exact amount needed for the Bulk Foods version..

Claussen offers BOTH a fully fermented pickle as well as HALF SOUR. Both MUST be kept under refrigeration. Dill weed you can buy at a local store. Dill seed (dried) is OK, and can be added with fresh dill wedd. I much prefer to add even more dill flavor by using part of a Mrs. Wages dill mix, which has a lot of dill taste too.

A big plastic, food grade pail is fine for 'starting' a fermented pickle batch. Kosher dills include garlic as well as the dill. Polish dills have a couple of peppercorns added

Hi cba and welcome to the forum and canning. I can't help you with the half-sours as we never make them but they are Ken's (ksrogers) specialty and his many past posts on them in addition to the above info are very helpful and easy to find if needed.

But we do make the other 2 types. You have a BIG weekend planned!!! ;) But your stuff from Bulk Foods likely won't be here by then, right?

Are you using the Heinz and the Clausen-style recipes from this forum or other source recipes that still call for alum and/or lime?

This is the Clausen one we use:

Clausen Kosher Dill Pickles

Ingredients:

2 dill flowers (grocery produce section)
2 garlic cloves, peeled & halved
1 1/4 lbs. (8−10) pickling cucumbers
6 long sprigs fresh dill
1 tbsp coarse kosher salt (grocery store)

Put dill flower and garlic in bottom of mason jar; add the cukes, put sprigs of dill in center of cukes, add salt, fill jar with half boiled water that is now cooled, and half vinegar to within 1/8th of top.

Put on seal and ring, shake to dissolve salt, set upside down on counter away from sunlight and heat. Let sit 24 hours flipping the jar every 4-6 hours. Then pour off 1/4 cup of the brine and replace with fresh vinegar and refrigerate. Wait an additional week before eating for best flavor.

Lasts about 6 months.

We use neither alum nor lime and have very crisp pickles with this recipe and as far as we have ever been able to determine it is a very safe recipe.

Hope this helps.

Dave

Pickle Crisp/calcium chloride is what the commercial industry uses. I really like it. Alum will only help in a fully fermented pickle. The pickling lime is not fun to work with. You have to rinse and rinse to get it all off. Otherwise it can reduce the acidity in the pickles and make them unsafe. Think Tums or Rolaids, it reduces acid.
I tried lime once and I did not like it. Using fresh cucumbers is really the key. You can also soak them in ice water first to help.
I use dried dill weed or dill seed in my pickles. I prefer it in the Heinz recipe. The dill weed looks messy, but I don't mind, I like the flavor. I use 1 T. per pint.
*******************
I don't have the type of dill my recipe calls for. How can I substitute what I have?
For each quart try 3 heads of fresh dill or 1 to 2 tablespoons dill seed (dill weed = 2T).

If you are using the fermented Claussen type recipe, not the one posted above, they are fully fermented. That would make them sour.
If your plastic jars is food grade, it is fine to use it.

ksrogers,

Thanks for responding :-) This is the recipe (below) that I'm going to try & wanted to know if this is sour or half-sour? I think that I'm not explaining my question regarding NACL very well. I thought that it would be ok to just not use either alum or lime at all in any recipe because they sound dangerous to use & I plan to use NACL anyway, is it ok to assume that? Alas, I'm afraid that I can't bop out to the store for fresh dill. I'm handicapped and housebound so I have to either order online, make do with what I have, or wait for Bob to do my monthly grocery run. But I want to make the pickles this weekend - too excited to wait. LOL

Sorry I'm asking so many questions but I don't know much even after searching/reading this forum for 2 weeks before asking questions. I'm a certified ICU ER RN so I can answer those questions, but I'm definitely deficient regarding gardening and canning so please bear with me.

I feel really bad now, it sounds like I made you angry by asking questions which you may have addressed before - at least that's the impression I got from your response. I am very sorry that I upset you, but please know that I really did research and read first. I may not have found or understood any entries regarding my questions, but I did not ask to upset anyone, so please forgive me for upsetting you..

Fermented Dill Pickles Refrigerated "Clausen" Type

1 Gallon Jar
Pickling Cucumbers
12 Fresh Dill Flower heads, or
2 Tbsp Dried dill weed and
2 Tbsp. Dried dill seed
10 to 12 Cloves Garlic
6 to 8 Peppercorns
1/4 Cup Vinegar
1/2 Cup Salt
1 1/2 Quarts Water

In 1 gallon jar add pickling cucumbers Rinse but do not wash the cucumbers. Add Dill flower heads or dried dill weed and seed, garlic, peppercorns, and vinegar. Dissolve salt in water and add to jar. Fill jar the remaining way with water. Add weight to keep cucumbers under brine.

Fermentation sequence
1. Clear brine  no cloudiness for 1 to 3 days
2. Cloudy brine with gas formation, 2-3 days
3. Cloudy brine  no gas formation, 5 to 6 days

Pickles ready to eat after 10-11 days.
Refrigerate pickles if you do not want to process them.

Cheryl

Dave,

Thanks so much for the welcome :-) Yep, I probably bit off more than I can chew LOL But I'm really excited after doing so well with last weekends' pickles and jam :-)

The 3 recipes I want to try were all printed from this forum. The Clausen one I included in the above response, but actually yours looks really good too. The Kosher Dill (Heinz Recipe) I believe Linda Lou had posted. The recipes that had alum or lime are ones I had cut out but not from here. I just want to ignore the alum and lime and make the pickles without it but I wasn't sure if there would be a negative impact to exclude it. I feel much better about it now that you told me that you never use them either.

You're right the NACL won't be here for a week or so. I can still do the Clausen pickles as they take 10 days till processing. Hopefully that is not cutting it too short. The Dills I'll have to wait for the NACL to come.

Thanks so much for helping out!!!

Cheryl

Linda Lou,

LOL I am turning into a Linda Lou Sweet Pickle Chunk. I can't stay out of the jar, so I guess I'll have to make another batch :-)

Thanks for your opinion about the plastic jar for the Clausens. I'm assuming that it must be food grade since I bought it from a Spice store, but maybe I'll email and ask to be sure. Also thanks for the dill information, I'll make note of the dill equivalents in my Ball Book.

Thanks so much for your help!!

Cheryl

Cheryl - hopefully you ordered the CaCl for crispy pickles rather than the NaCl (sodium chloride)? Or was the salt what you were after?

As Linda Lou and others often post, the secret to crisp pickles is really fresh cukes. The NCHFP (source of regs and rules and research) that we refer most newbies to it a great source to explore if you haven't already been there.

Have a fun weekend. ;)

Dave

Cheryl,
Everyone that I know loves those pickles. I am glad you do, too. If I had known you were doing them I would have told you to double it. Everyone says they usually eat the first batch and have none to can !
I imagine your container is food grade then. If you are unsure you can always line containers with a large turkey roasting bag.
The Claussen recipe you posted is the one I give out for people to try. It was one I got from the extension office.
I am trained as a Food Safety Advisor/Master Food Preserver with my local county extension office. This time of year gets busy.
You have fun with all your canning !
Truly,
Linda Lou

As Linda_Lou indicated, dried dill can always be substituted for fresh and you may also like it better. Some do.

In fact, a lot of times different forms of ingredients can be subbed, so if you're not sure, just ask. For example, in a pickle that calls for a fresh pepper per jar, you might use a dried red one instead. The color contrast is attractive, and you get a nice touch of heat.

I think there was some misunderstanding/misreading of your original question. Most of us are happy to answer; we recognize that the search engine on the Forum can be challenging. Also, while alum and lime have been discussed on other threads, your particular question, as best I remember, has not been covered.

The crisping agent calcium chloride can basically be used in any pickle recipe, not limited to cucumber pickles. So it might be added to pickled peppers or green beans, though few people do.

Obviously then, alum and lime become unnecessary as crisping agents. In fact, alum is sometimes called for in old recipes where it serves no real purpose. For instance, a pinch of alum added to a jar of pickles isn't going to make them one bit crisper. The only time alum does any good is as a soak for a fermented pickle.

My recommendation right now would be to steer away from recipes calling for alum and lime because the recipes that use them are often old and not adapted to current standards; they may present other problems, like insufficient acidity, no processing instructions or inadequate processing times.

It doesn't mean they're totally unusable, but probably not the best starting point for a beginning pickler.

I hope you enjoy your pickling adventures and have a lot of fun with them. Let us know how they turn out for you. We like hearing from new "converts."

Carol

cba_rn
I am not angry, just a bit frustrated for having to retype the same info over again. Please don't be sorry, if you must realize that a steroid, Prednisone is one of the nasty meds that affect my mood, temerement, and a whole roller coaster of other side effects (Kidney failure) In the future, I may have to copy and paste previous information for new posts, that seem to ask for the same info. The search tool here is terrible, but because most people try to keep the SUBJECT TITLE as one that better explains the message thread needed for specific info. 'Newbie questions' as a subject, is not much help for most who want to know about a fermented pickles. But there again, the 'fermented pickle' words do show up quite a lot as the subject title. The recipe you have shown is for a fully fermented pickle due to the longer ferment time. My half sours only see about 2-3 days of fermentation, hence the 'half sour' term. Claussen has both types, and they do taste similar, but fully fermented is a slightly softer pickle, whereas the half sour is stopped from fermenting futher due to the addition of a small amount of white vinegar just before its refrigerated. Additionally, within each thread, are alwayas found some nice, helpful 'gems' of wisdom, where only careful reading needs to be done.
At least, you ARE welcomed here and may all your concerns be answered.

I spend about 6+ hours per day here, just in the harvest forum alone. Beyond that, its hospitals, doctors, and the garden, and whatever I can manage to put into jars, if I have the strength.

Linda Lou's right on about that recipe - double it. It is a very popular one. ;) The one we use (listed above), the half-sour one, is definitely crispier plus easier for our house - we're old and impatient here. ;)

We used to make limed pickles every year and it a BIG pain in the posterior so I double-ditto the ignore-any-recipes-requiring-lime-in-them recommendation (same goes for any calling for alum).

Dave

Dave - chuckle, yep I did order CaCl2 not NaCl. I don't know what scrambles my brain more this unbelievable heat & humidity or old age :-) It's all in there but it scrambles coming out sometimes LOL When you say fresh cukes I have a feeling I defined it wrong. I pick all week from my deck garden & cook on the weekend so they may be 5-6 days old max. Is that bad? I keep them in the Debbie Meyer Green Bags in the fridge. Thanks for reminding me - I had just discovered the National Center for Home Food Preservation web site so I'll go spend some time there and see what I can learn.

Linda Lou - I am definitely going to do another batch of those to can and hide them :-0 That tip re the turkey roasting bag is terrific one - I'm taking notes on a legal pad and keeping it in my Ball Book so I don't lose track of all this good info.

Carol - I am so glad to learn that I don't ever have use alum or lime :-) The recipe that made me question it is one that you make with a gallon jar of dills that I thought could be made in the middle of the winter if there are no cukes growing on the deck and the canned ones are gone :-) They are called Kentucky Sweet Candied Pickles. You start with a gallon jar of dills drained; add 1 c salt and fill jar with H20. After 15 days drain again, add 1 Tbs alum and fill with H20. After 24 hours drain again, then fill with white vinegar. After 24 hours drain vinegar and add 3 cups of sugar. Then every 24 hours add 3 more cups of sugar till the pickles are covered with syrup. Bob says his teeth ache just reading about it LOL I'm going to throw away all the recipes I have that call for alum or lime and I'll stick with the Ball recipes or the ones I get here - then I can feel sure I'll be safe.

ksrogers - Yes, I sure do understand about steroids - both as an RN who gave them and as a patient who has to take them. They are not pleasant for sure. The part that I hate the most is the moon face and the friable skin. After reading your fermented pickle comments I finally understand the terms fermented, sours and half sours :-) I knew the words but not what they were or how they were made - I just knew that I got them in a NY deli once and loved them. I also see what you mean about the titles - I never thought of it before, but I will try to be more cognizant now of the words I use when I post. Thanks for helping me out. By the way, I see you are from the state above me. I'm 45 min south of Hartford.

PS I have 4 pickling cuke plants in an Earthbox on my deck and I'm beginning to worry that they won't produce enough to do all I want to do - groan!!! I just picked 30 and see 4 right now that I can't reach. I had Bob plant 2 cuke plants next to my bird bath and feeders in the back yard and they're doing nothing - only 4 cukes so far from those. I sure hope they all keep producing until Fall so I can keep making pickles :-)

Well, my cukes are calling me. Have a wonderful weekend all.....

Cheryl

I do use alum in one recipe but it's in the initial stages of fermentation of fresh cukes. I'm not convinced it would be helpful in that recipe you cited. (However, my judgment may be clouded by my aversion to "sweet dills". Isn't that an oxymoron?)

I just wanted to mention all ziploc bags are food-safe, including the super-big ones sold in the clothing storage department of super-stores. You know, where they sell hangers and garment bags and mothballs.

Turkey brining bags usually cost much more; save your money and buy the ultra-big storage ones instead. It's one of those "what's in a name" things. Call it a "brining bag" and up the price.

Carol

Fresh cukes=1-2 days tops, after that time they tend to lose a little of the fresh crunch. Alum is still used in some commerially made pickles and the calcium is used in whole tomato canning to retain some texture.

The Debbie Meyer bags will not do much, as cukes only send out mostly water, and then soften due to the lack of it. A big plastic bag of them in the fridge can help prolong another day. I wash mine, and rub off the blossom end before they get bagged. Mine also 'sweat' some inside the bag so its helps to keep some moisture in For the older cukes (3+ days old), spread mayo on some sandwich bread, slice a few cukes thickly lengthwise, and lay onto the bread. Sprinkle a dash of salt and you have a nice cool cucumber sandwich. Still love these today and even toast the bread on one side (towards the mayo an cukes).

I have been needing 2 gallon zipper bags lately. These used to be sold everywhere, but now, dont seem as popular. On Amazon, I bought a 120 count for under $20.

In my serrches, I found a web site offering Mrs. Wages quick process Dill mixes and indicated a on sale quantity of 12 for $14.25 Was 'supposed' to be a sale price. The little box arrived a few days later and there was just ONE SINGLE mix packet inside, costing $14.25!! Thats OUTRAGOUS! Even for that, a $9.00 shipping cost too. I sent them a nasty note as their description said they were on sale as a box of 12. That sale page was quickly taken off and now they deny the whole issue. I had to send off another web link for them to realize that their product isn't THAT muuch even for suggested retail! What crooks! I provided them with a web link that showed a decent source of just $2.29 each, far below that supplier!

When my half sours reach about 8-10 months in the fridge, they do 'sour' a bit more. Its almost a taste like a vinegar based pickle even though I have only added a tablespoon or two of vinegar to the salt brine. Similar flavor with fully fermenbted, which is actually lactic acid thats created during fermentation.

Right now, I am picking about 20 pounds of cukes every other day. If I miss picking any big ones, the next day they get huge and thats not usually good for a whole pickle. Cutting in to chunks or slices is ok, if the seeds aren't too big inside. Once the cukes get yellow ends on the skins, they are history. I use SPLENDA as the primary sweetener for a B&B or other sweet type. I found that it has a SUPER SWEETING pwer compared to sugar. For example, if a recipe called for 5 cups of sugar, adding that ame 'cup for cup' amount of Splenda is way too much! I would only ue bout a cup or even a bit less, but always taste the vinegar based brine before its in jars. Splenda and vinegar seem to enhance each other.

Next new drug I ma on, Cytoxan.. Nastier than Prednisone..

Me, I live about 16 miles north of Boston, but still very woodsy and has deer stealing my fruits from the nearby reservation. Big flock or wild turkeys this last winter, A lost moose, and all kinds of garden destroying varmints. Anyone want a woodchuck? Lost half the garden to that nasty 2 years ago. He's gone now, and has made nice fertilizer for the blueberry bushes.

Ken,

Sorry it took me so long to answer - I wasn't online for a few days - buried in canning. Hey you are pretty close. My hubby has an Aunt & Uncle in Boston - I think the section where they live is called Brookline but their printing business is in Boston. I hope you used a charge card with that web site that cheated you. You should call them and do a charge back so you could recover your money. What crooks!!!!

LOL Nope, got my own woodchucks here. Those critters sure do eat a lot. Between him and the rabbits nesting in the yard we lost not only veges but flowers too. Bob planted a dozen sun flowers for me so I could see the birds eating the seeds from my deck. Well, the very next morning there were 11 gone, eaten to the height of about 1 inch. And the next morning he got the last one. We also have wild turkey, deer, fox, coyotes, and a resident red-tailed hawk. Never knew they were so big when they were soaring over head, but the morning I got up to see him sitting on my deck railing and watched him take off I got a birds-eye view of his size and a new respect for him. I love living in the woods. My nearest neighbor (over a mile away) has a goat farm and makes/sells goat cheese. They love animals too and in addition to the normal dogs and cats they have a pet donkey (Nester), a pony (Bailey), a white turkey (Humphrey) and 6 assorted chickens in the yard. I laugh when they go for Sunday walks down the dirt road and take Nester the Donkey on a leash. Actually it's more like Nester takes them. He loves to come to my house to visit.

I'm sorry to hear that you have to take Cytoxan, it's an antineoplastic belonging to a group of drugs known as alkylating agents. It's in the class of medications referred to as immunosuppressants, medicines that work by decreasing your immune system's response to various diseases. That's a potent one. I hope that it works well for your situation & that you feel better. Not sure if you're taking it IV or by mouth, but if you take it in pill form be sure to take it after your tummy is full.

Ken and other canners who may have an opinion -

When you've fermented your pickles and are ready to put them in the frig do you strain out the spices and boil the brine or do you make new brine and replace the old, or do nothing? In mine it looks a tad bit cloudy and has Mrs.Wages spices, dill, and garlic floating around in it. I know it should be ok, I have well water that is not hard, I cut both ends of, used Mrs. Wages Pickling Salt, used whole spices that were just bought, the pickles were fresh picked and I've only used glass jars and plastic measuring items, no aluminum. There is no odor and they're not slimy so I'm pretty sure they are ok.

Happy canning everyone :-)

Cheryl

It's OK to keep fermented pickles in the existing brine as long as there are no off-odors, mold, any of the usual signs of spoilage.

I can my fermented pickles rather than refrigerating and I do make a fresh finishing brine because by the time they're fermented, to my taste the original brine is "funky." I use fresh herbs, garlic, whatever. I kind of figure all the good has gone out of the old stuff.

Carol

Leave the spices in too. Mine gets LOTS of garlic too. The same Mrs. Wages mix when used with the vinegar and water (recipe on back), will be cloudy too when its boiling and poured into the packed jars. Once cooled, the brine becomes clear. My half sours are going to be slightly cloudy brine, but that is normal for fermented and half fermented. Not sure if you add a tablespoon of vinegar to yours, but I do, as they are not fully fermented and can still expel gases while in the fridge because the vinegar stops the fermention. I use half gallon Ball jars and a wide mouth lids, with the plastic screw-on caps to hold the lid on. This time, I made 3 half gallon jars, and must taste them again soon, now that some of my sense of taste has come back. If they are bad tasting, they all get tossed and I do more, as my cukes are plentiful now, picking about 15 pounds per day.
Can you imagine someone PEELING a pickling cuke? A lady I gave some to told me she peeled them. I had to ask her if she ever saw a 'skinless' pickle!! She said they had no burp either, so she really liked them.

Cytoxan is a pill. If it were a chemo or an IV, I would have to get a new portacath surgically implanted again. My spleen was removed back in the 80's. I know a lot about the immune system as I also had that chemo, Vincristine (sp), which was to reduce the attack on my platelets, which at one time were down to below 5000. Its called ITP, and is a HUGE long medical word. If you just push on my skin I would bruise a one foot area around that spot. Spent almost 4 months in the hospital for that one, and had nearly every disease and infection known to man, as well as severe internal bleeding. At that time, Prednisone was at 270mgs per day, andI was bouncing off the walls, as well as losing over 70 pounds in 3 months.

Dave, is the purpose of boiling the water in your Clausen Kosher recipe(posted above)is that to soften the water? Or is it for something else?

My water is very hard and I read a post of Linda's elsewhere about how to make my water suitable for pickling.

Also, if you wouldn't mind, how large a jar is that recipe for? Could I use a used gallon jar that came with dill pickles and just increase the recipe to fill it? My hubby can eat a gallon in a few days!

Thank you.

Boiling hard water will increase the hardness even more. Boiling would just kill off any bacteria. If your in hard water areas, a bottled water is probably the easiest to use. Cheap and usually tastes decent. My grandmother used old gallon glass jars for her pickles. For many years her drinking water was good, but when we got older and visited, they had added a LOT of chlorine, and it was replusive to drink. Once that happpened her pickles were not the same. You can make any size batch, provided the jar will fit in the fridge.

Dave, is the purpose of boiling the water in your Clausen Kosher recipe(posted above)is that to soften the water? Or is it for something else?

My water is very hard and I read a post of Linda's elsewhere about how to make my water suitable for pickling.

Also, if you wouldn't mind, how large a jar is that recipe for? Could I use a used gallon jar that came with dill pickles and just increase the recipe to fill it? My hubby can eat a gallon in a few days!

You mean this part? "fill jar with half boiled water that is now cooled, and half vinegar to within 1/8th of top"

Yeah, it's to distill it a bit, remove any chlorine, and to kill any 'bugs' that might be in the water in the water. ;)

It's based on a qt. jar size but you can use any large jar that will fit into the fridge as long as you keep the ingredients balanced accordingly. We have several old 2 qt. Mason canning jars we use.

Ok?

Dave

Carol

I think I'll make a fresh brine with fresh spices too. Since one jar is a gift it will look better I think. Do you put vinegar in before canning them to be sure they don't ferment anymore. I have this vision of them continuing to ferment and exploding LOL

Ken

LOL - nope can't imagine peeling a pickling cucumber. Wonder what her pickles will be like :-0

This is my first time so I didn't add any vinegar. I made 2 quarts and want to can them - one for a gift that I need to ship and the other as a test that I can open & try before I ship one to the in-laws. It would not be too good to send them something that tasted or smelled awful. Chuckle - guess I'll get more confidence as do more pickling. So I'll add a Tbs vinegar to each quart before I process them. How the heck can I tell if they're ready to process? I've been reading the past 2 days and have seen a range of 10 days to 3 weeks so I'm not sure what I'm looking for. Today is day 10 for my 2 jars.

ITP, yep it's a big word alright - Immune Thrombocytopenic Purpura. It's so rare what a bummer you have it. Did you know that the ITP organization has a newsletter. It might keep you up to date with what's happening & any new treatments on the horizon. Just in case you are interested here is the web site: www.itpfoundation.org

Hiya Dave :-)

OK, I'm back to my canning. My deck garden is like a jungle out there & it's keeping me pretty busy.

Cheryl

If you allow minerals to precipitate to the bottom of the vessel during the rest period, boiling doesn't make hard water harder. It does make it suitable for pickling.

I explained how to treat hard water on the thread below.

Carol

Yes that is just what I meant. We boiled some water today, and are making your pickles tomorrow Dave. Yippee!!!!!!!

Thanks everybody!

If I boil hard water, I get white dry deposits everywhere.

Full fermentation can take 10 days, 2 weeks, 3 weeks or more. Its mostly depending on the room temps.