Hmmm, lots of additional info needed. They have to be talking about BWB canning only of course so my first question would be what on earth are they BWB canning 45 jars at a time? No approved recipe allows for preparation of that much at any one times

Have to be acid foods. Unfortunately many home canners don't make that distinction and try to BWB everything, safe or not.

And how would you find a fitted lid and a jar rack for cover a galvanized tub? How would one load and remove all those jars into and out of the tub built on a fire without getting burned by the fire? Tub can't be bigger than the fire so it would be a pretty good size fire. Really, really long jar lifter tongs. ;) How would you adjust the heat?

Shades of pioneer days!! They'd do better to buy an additional gas burner or stove and another big canner so they could do 2 batches at a time.

Dave

I have seen big two-burner water bath canners, commonly used by the Amish, Mennonites, those with large families and/or who can in large amounts.

But they are quite expensive (see example) and I think as Dave mentioned, using two stockpots or canners would be more efficient and more versatile as individual stockpots can be used for many other purposes.

Galvanized I would not use. I realize that using it for a water bath is not the same as food preparation (cooking or smoking) but I am leery because with the application of heat you get zinc fumes.

I suppose theoretically you could use a galvanized container (if you can locate a lid) outside on a propane burner (on a breezy day when the wind wasn't going in the direction of the house) but who wants to risk zinc poisoning?

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Amish Stainless Stovetop Canner

A wood fire for canner is hard to control for the heating. For large canning batches, an external propane burner makes more sense and if your doing huge batches, a big pressure canner that can hold over 14 quart jars. Very tall and big. Galvanized is fine just for boiling water, but because its also a coating that is heat sensitive, it can vaporize at high temps and give off toxic gasses.

Thanks, I was thinking it wouldn't work! Sure would be nice if it would for green beans, Get them all done at once, we can't can enough!LOL!!!
We can dream can't we!!!!
Brenda

Sure would be nice if it would for green beans

You can't do green beans in a BWB. They have to be pressure canned.

Dave

Yeah, I know green beans need pressure canned, that's why it would be nice if it could be done that way.
My MIL says she remembers they water bathed green beans and she swears it was like three hrs that they processed them.
I would think they would have been mush, but she says they were the best!!!!
I pressure canned mine for the first time last year, and they are so good, I just wish you could process them all at once and be done!
Thanks again for your ideas, I just want everyone to be safe when they can food. I know people will do what they want, I just want to give them all the facts!
I never thought of the gasses heating a pan like that would produce. See that's why I asked here!
Brenda

Check the other thread for a 3 ring propane burner. Its about the most heat control you can get with a burner like this. PC needs low heat during the processing time, but high at its beginning. The 3 ring has 3 seperate flame controls. Outdoors, it would need a wrap around wind blocker.

You can get really big pressure canners, perhaps not big enough for 45 jars at once (unless you go commercial equipment) but they do make some large ones if you have the money to afford them.

I can outdoors over propane burners. The important thing to keep in mind using a lighter weight canner over any really powerful burner is that you don't want to boil the canner dry by using too much heat during the process which could then lead to the canner warping and being ruined. What ever burner is used, a good quality very adjustable regulator is needed to be able to maintain a low heat during processing to maintain the proper pressure. I have one of those low wide base burners for under the big canning pot (pressure or BWB) and then I have a camp stove with two burners for preparing product. I find making preserves much easier over the propane burners as they don't seem to burn to the bottom in my cheap pots compared to doing it over electric burners where they always burn.

I made a couple hinged wind screens to place around the big canner burner so breezes don't mess with my flame.

As for the zinc and galvanized pots. If one were to breathe the vapors from such a tub over a big fire, drink lots of milk, that is what welders to when they weld galvanized items. In general it is best to keep galvanized objects away from cooking operations though as some one might not know and use it to cook something acidic and make people sick.

Yeah, I know green beans need pressure canned,

Great! ;)

You'd be amazed at the number of people who still think BWB green beans is fine.

Dave

I'm still amazed that there are people out there who think they can just can anything! It is so scary!
I still consider myself a newbie and I know I have a lot to learn. I come here often when I need advice.
I see a lot of unsafe suggestion out there, I try my best to steer them here so they can at least make an informed dissension.
Thanks
Brenda

My mother cans about two tons a year for our very large extended family, all BWB. Whole tomatoes, tomato sauce, plum-pear jam, plums (Stanley type) and peaches. All stuff with a pH below 3.5.

She does it with a wood fire and a huge steel pot, where I guess she can fit 30 to 45 2-quart jars at a time (the jam jars are one quart or less). The tomato sauce is in large beer bottles and those may fit in the pot 50 or so at a time. The pot is not moved. She drains the water up to the top of the bottom layer of jars, picks them up with gloves, and then she starts another batch. The pot is also used to soften tomatoes and cook down jam fruits.

She had a similar copper pot, but I told her to get rid of it because of the sauce tomatoes. I am sure we were all getting macro doses of copper (now we are getting small amounts of iron). In fact, my nail spots have disappeared since.

2 quart jars? 2 quarts of tomatoes with a pH of less than 3.5? Sorry, not possible even with lemon juice added unless she is adding 1/2 a cup of lemon juice to each jar. Beer bottles??? Quarts of jams?

Not considered safe canning practices by any means but another good example of the many very unsafe practices still in use today despite all the info available.

Dave

Not all tomatoes are highly acidic, even if you grow ones that are supposed to offer more acidity. A pH reading of 3.5 is not very common for a tomato. Unless you can actually measure it using scientific lab processes. Most commercial canners use added citrc acid to properly lower pH. Even for that, they should only be canned if you can accuratly measure the pH and know for sure what it is. 2 quart jars (half gallons) are not allowed in home canning recipes. Yes, Ball makes and sells them, but they are ony useful for dry storage or to make fermented pickles that are to be stored in the fridge. The half galoon jas are just too big and dense to use for home canning. A big pot of about 2-3 feet wide and 3 foot tall with about 20 gallons of boiling water would be needed, as well as a very high heat from a burner that is hotter than a wood fire. Even though your parents have done it that way for a long time, it is still very risky and someone could get sick or even die from food poisoning. Botulism is the the main toxin and is odorless, colorless, and tasteless but very deadly. Salmonella is another one that you must be careful with. I recommend staying with todays hoe canning processes which are almost 100% different from what you describe. Your unsafe canning description almost tells us that you are not following even a single safe canning rule, and are simply playing Russian Roulette when it comes to home canning foods. THe US government has recommended new rules that should be followed. Its not to say they must be followed, but if you look at the issue of unreported deaths and sickness resulting from bad home canning, you may want to advise them that their processes should be updated so there is no danger to others when a home made jar of something is opened.

More I think about it Ken, I think glib must be pulling our leg. Surely no one would actually do as he/she described. ;)

Dave

'glib' whats that? One of my misspelled or misstyped words?? I type too fast sometimes (on a very old, sticky keyboard) and don't go back to proof read much.. Sorry..

You didn't mis-type Ken. glib is the poster's forum name.

Carol

Or maybe glib was serious, but is now too embarrassed to come back to this thread after getting such dire responses.

I don't think s/he was pulling our leg. I can certainly imagine a large family, maybe living a prairie-style/homesteading life, where the canning is done all at once. No, I don't think it's safe to can in such big jars, nor can I imagine having that many old two-quart jars, since they're not for sale anymore. But the method itself seems close enough that it's believable.

So glib, if you're still out there, I don't imagine your mom wants to hear that current canning guidelines say no canning in two-quart jars (except juice). But I'd say one small step you can take is to be sure the tomatoes are sufficiently acidified, and maybe do those in quart jars. That's the one thing you described that seems most likely to cause sickness.

As for horror stories that can't possibly be true, here's one for you. My friends used to make apple butter in a big 50-gallon pot over a fire, and open-kettle can it (they would boil the lids but nothing else). In quart jars by the way. But here's the part that raised my eyebrows...they told me that one year as they started giving away the jars over the next couple days, none of them were sealed. They realized that stacking the boxes of hot jars back up was insulating the ones on the inside, and as soon as they spread out the boxes, all the jars started pinging. So the apple butter was kept warm but not hot for days in unsealed jars. To me, follower of food safety guidelines, that sounds awful. To someone doing things the old way, it's a minor setback that was easily solved. That doesn't mean that people doing things the old way are bad people.

Our job on this forum is to present the information and let people make their own decisions about risk. That's all we can do.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: NCHFP approved methods for tomato products

I'm sorry if you feel I was too harsh, Melissa. I thought I was at least somewhat reticent since I was so appalled by the info in the post.

There is a responsibility that goes along with home canning food when that food will be eaten by others. Part of that responsibility is taking the time to at least attempt to know and use safe practices. Further, to not advocate unsafe practices to others as glib's post does.

Canning tomato sauce in beer bottles has NEVER been considered safe and using 2 quart jars for canning tomatoes or anything else but juice hasn't been approved for nearly a quarter of a century. Not to mention jams in quarts.

So I find it hard to believe that anyone would actually do as described and can only hope the post was either grossly misinformed about what Mom does or a hoax.

Dave

I think it's entirely possible. Although canning over a fire is more prevalent now in Alaska and frontier areas, it is still done.

As for the amounts, looking back to when I was young, we canned fruits and veggies in 500-quart batches or thereabouts. Granted, I'm no spring chicken, but there are still families and/or groups which do pursue home preserving on a large scale.

Regarding the methods: The NCHFP conducted a random national telephone survey of home canning practices (2000 and 2001). 48% got their canning instructions from friends or relatives (which of course begs the question of how knowledgeable the source is) and 21% still used the "open kettle" method. [Access the findings at the link.]

Lots of people can jams and jellies in quarts. At home we never canned in less than pints and a pint didn't last long. The risks are miniscule, largely potential waste due to mold. Of course old-timers would just scrape that off and eat the remainder, (which is no longer recommended now that more is known regarding the risks of mold.)

It sounds like everything canned over the fire is high-acid (though any tomato product with a pH of 3.5 would definitely have "pucker power"). Maybe the lady is relying on vinegar.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: A Look at Home Canning Activity Today

I just think that there's no use driving people away by acting shocked about their canning methods. Better to gently explain, and try to educate. But I have other hobbies where opinions are even more polarized, where I care even more about winning people over to my side, so I'm influenced by that too.

Melissa