The starter is approaching a week old (just a baby) and it is thriving like crazy. It made progress every day since the beginning. There were no inactive periods which, according to SourdoLady, can happen. For the past three days or so it has been producing a puddle of hootch within 12 hours after feeding. Wow, that stuff is strong (smelling I mean). A professional baker on that site says his bakery feeds the starter twice a day. I think mine would benefit from that, but I'm not sure I want to do it. The starter would make bread now, it's active enough. I'm told that more flavor will develop after a couple of weeks though, so I may wait for that.

There is a long string of posts after the recipe for which I provided the link. Lots of interesting discussion there.

A big issue whenever sourdough is discussed is how to develop a sour flavor. Sour flavor is what most people want from sourdough bread, even though the main purpose of sourdough is for leavening and it can easily make a non-sour or even a sweet bread -- all too easily according to many bakers. The answer seems to be long, slow rising of the dough. This requires using just the right amount of starter. Too much will make the dough rise too fast. Too little, of course, won't do the job. Temperature is used to control the rate of rising too. Cool temperature is used to prolong the rise. There is a limit to how long a rise can go. At a certain point activity declines and "oven spring" (a term I just learned) is lost, resulting in a deflated loaf.

My photos were a bust. :-( Beige mush, seen through the uneven glass of a jar isn't photogenic. Even postprocessing in Photoshop didn't make the pics viewable. So, no pics this time. Sorry.

Jim

Jim writes: > My photos were a bust. :-( Beige mush, seen through the uneven glass of a jar isn't photogenic. Even postprocessing in Photoshop didn't make the pics viewable. So, no pics this time. Sorry.

Which reminds me that I used to make videos of macroinvertibrates in my aquarium using my Sony palmcorder coupled with close-up lens and extension tubes from my old Pentax. Caddis fly larva would construct their tubes on the glass to do their feeding. They were filter feeders and fed on the daphnia in the water. Fascinating to watch. Cabled to my TV so I could see the wee beasties. I was a water quality monitor volunteer for the Dept of Natural Resources and MO Dept of Conservation. A 'Stream Team' volunteer. (think Issac Walton League) They were the source of my first pH meters and dissolved solids meters and other test equipment. Which segues into sourdough....

I tested a nice layer of hooch in my wild sourdough starter a few min ago and it was 3.63 pH. Have seen it lower. I wonder how to test what proof alcohol it is? Time to feed my pets.

jt

When I made my last batch of bread, the sourdough culture sat on my counter for almost 5 days, and I fed it twice. After the fifth day, it was put in the fridge, and the bubbling slowed down quite a lot. It was a very thick, very sticky glob of dough, that needed very little added liquid once it was finally mixed with regular bread flour and set out to do is final rise before baking. The sourness was quite pronouced. The culture had all whole wheat flour in it this time, and so the chunk I took out was noticably whole wheat, which is good. Even though I had added a little potato starch, the bread turned out quite dry, but was still very light and quite bubbly. The two french loaves were big, and a single one would make at least 4 or 5 hardy sandwiches. I think the rest will get coated with some herbed butter and garlic and put under the broiler for a little while. There is nothing like crusty garlic and herb bread, especially when the bread has a nice mellow sour taste as well. The herbs are from my garden, where I ground up rosemary, thyme, and oregano, along with fresh buuter and olive oil. I still have about 4 pounds of super lean pastrami left, and will be bringing some to work for a few coworkers there (lucky them!). Last summers mustard pickle was really good too. Its the first time I have seen this much crunch in the pickled sliced cuke chunks and other veggies. I guess its the combination of tumeric, ground mustard, vinegar, and Clear Jel that helped to keep the pickles a bit crisper.

PS: keep in mind that once that 'hooch' reaches a specific level it can KILL the friendly bacteria and the wild yeast. You can go too far and lose the whole starter if its allowed to go beyond a tolerable state and starts to destroy itself. Ths probably what happens to some very old unattended cultures, they simply overdose on alcohol.

Ken writes: > PS: keep in mind that once that 'hooch' reaches a specific level it can KILL the friendly bacteria and the wild yeast. You can go too far and lose the whole starter if its allowed to go beyond a tolerable state and starts to destroy itself. Ths probably what happens to some very old unattended cultures, they simply overdose on alcohol.

Ken,

I didn't know that. Some instructions that I've read say to simply stir it in. I'm going to start pouring it off more diligently from now on.

Thanks!

jt

I also have a wonderful smelling starter on my kitchen table, that I have been feeding for the last 3 days. This seems to be the best acting so far. Nice bubbles - and have fed it and stired several times a day. It is now beginning to form "hootch" and I will try to use it before it starts to decline. Thanks for the update.

My last pizza was a "winner" and my critic this time - my GD - said it was great. I added some olive oil to some raised sourdough batter that I had frozen left over from a previous bread - it seemed to help make it a lot more "stretchable" like real pizza experts get when they roll out their creations. The olive oil was added after thawing - then I kneaded a bit, rolled out and built the pizza.

I happened to have some left over spaghetti sauce frozen for the top, then came the mozarella, topped with pepperoni, black olives and my home made sausage - to which was added some fennel, garlic salt and pepper. The pizza was then baked at 400 for about 30 minutes on a large pizza pan covered with corn meal.

I also added some fennel and dill weed to the dough before forming.

I do believe it is the best so far. We have been ordering pizzas from a local pizzeria for around $20 delivered. It is a great creation, but I really believe that my recent "offering" was every bit as good.

Want to thank everyone for their great support in this endeavor. Whew!

On to bigger and better things - tomorrow who knows - lighter biscuits perhaps, great rye breads, the world!

Bejay

Now you know the real difference between regular bread dough and pizza dough. Its the olive oil.

"I really believe that my recent "offering" was every bit as good."

Don't sell yourself short. I'm sure your pizza is much better than anything you could buy. I hadn't thought of using fennel seeds and never would have thought of mixing them into the dough. That's a great idea. I usually "schmear" the dough with a bit of olive oil before adding the toppings.

"I also have a wonderful smelling starter on my kitchen table..."

Was this starter created recently or is it one you have been maintaining for a while?

Jim

Adding dried granulated garlic and basil to the dough before making some pizza is also good. Fennel is used in some Italian sausages as well as in pepperoni. If you like mushrooms, try precooking them and marinating them in some dill weed before they get put on the pizza.

Jim -

The starter was in the fridge - one that I have been feeding for many months - taking out 2 cups and putting back flour and water to keep the jar almost full.

I decided to do the 3 day before baking time with 2 cups of it - and was feeding with some whole wheat flour. The first batch in the fridge was originally made with some high gluten flour. This is what I made the pizzas out of.

Anyway, everytime I see a new "wrinkle" about the starter, it encourages me to try it. I also noted a recent posting about using a wooden spoon to stir - (another pH incident), but I think my previous stirers have been stainless steel anyway, so perhaps not "reactive" either.

Unfortunately, yesterday I accidentally dumped that 3 day old starter on my kitchen counter, saving only about 1/3 of it. So - as another posting recommends, I am drying it, and will experiment further with it as a "saved" dried starter.

I am assuming that when I decide to use it, that I can just add flour and water to it, and allow it to stand at room temps for about 3 days - feeding twice a day, until it becomes all bubbly and sour tasting - right?

Bejay

Bejay writes: > I am assuming that when I decide to use it, that I can just add flour and water to it, and allow it to stand at room temps for about 3 days - feeding twice a day, until it becomes all bubbly and sour tasting - right?

Bejay,

I don't feed and stir that often at all. Maybe a mistake on my part. And I keep my 3 starters more watery than most. Drying the sourdough. I add water to it until is very thin and runny. Pour a very thin layer onto a plate and slowly air dry. It will curl up and be quite crumbly. I've found that the very thin pieces work much more quickly than thick ones. My little West Bend food chopper turns to powder or very small flakes just before using. I dissolve the powder/flakes in water before adding a little flour at a time and stirring. If flakes are too chunky it can take forever to dissolve them.

I've dried in my dehydrator at lowest setting too. I rather like air drying better, but might be too humid where you live.

jt

Other ideas from a homemade pizza nut....

Try using a large proportion of semolina flour in the dough.

I do the olive oil on the pan, and then again on top the crust to form a barrier between the dough and the sauce. It lets the bottom get crisp.

But I'm off now to do a starter and make a sour dough pizza later this week. You guys have me convinced.

And note, I didn't bring up that I am an aquarium nut as well.

How about we all meet on an aquarium forum and talk sourdough. Makes sense to me.

Jim

Are you puzzled about why it makes sense to me? Well, if me meet on an aquarium forum to talk sourdough, then we get off topic by talking fish, we will actually be on topic. Right?

Welcome to Alice in Wonderland.

John, for the first week I was mixing my starter runny, like pancake batter. The ferment was vigorous, quickly becoming frothy, with puddles of hooch. Yesterday I mixed it thicker, like sticky bread dough. It is still quite active, but the consistency doesn't allow for frothiness. I think the thinner consistency allows circulation and easier escape of gasses. I think it produces a faster fermentation.

Jim

david52,

You get one free post to say anything you want about aquariums. A bit of info about your main fishy interests would be welcome. I'm impressed with what the other guys have done (5 lb. bass????, caddis larvae????).

Is it relevent to insert here that I raised brine shrimp to adult size by feeding them yeast? That's related to bread.

Jim

My sourdough starters have always been very thick, almost as a very sticky dough. When I dry some, its still very thick and will spread nicely on plastic wrap and dry out a bit curled up. I crumble it only, as I feel that grinding back to a powder can injure the yeast. When the dried culture is mixed with the four and water, its still a very thick batter, like a thick muffin batter that can stand up on a big spoon. I do not add any further water or flour during its 3-4 days of working, nor do I stir it at all. The bubbling and moisture within the dough will easily rehydrate and distribute the dried culture after just a few hours. I now have a quite active culture/starter going again on the kitchen counter, and used almost 4 cups of flour and some water added to the 1 cup of starter from the fridge, to make that very thick, sticky, batter dough. I already see quite a lot of bubbles, and its doubled in size in less than 24 hours. My counter is only at about 65-70 degrees most of the time. It will sit for 3 days before I remove the 1 cup back to the glass jar in the fridge. The rest of the culture gets to be made into french bread loaves again. This bread is really good with my herbed butter and lots of fresh garlic and placed under the broiler a few moments.

Ken - I'm a little bit behind you in the starter drying mode, but this a.m. I found it almost completely dry, perhaps just a tad more. It was a tricky thing to get off the plate, and at first I thought it was going to take a jack hammer, or I would have to sacrifice a dinner plate. It scraped off finally, and is in the process of finishing.

I'm anxious to try step #2 the rehydrating part and making an edible loaf - your French bread sounds great with the garlic butter. It might have to take a "back burner" though, because I'm in the process of drawing out the honey from some combs.

Yesterday, I opened my bee hives - it was such a nice warm day for it, and all seems to be going well, considering that I don't "work" them very well. These rascals swarmed to my house over a year ago, I hived them, and they have been doing a great job of pollinating and giving us enough honey to keep things like bread making easier. It always takes me awhile to get motivated, however. I've worked them for a few years now, but there is always that "gut feeling" about opening the hive and the possibility of being stung. I guess it never really goes away - and the old adrenalin gets moving pretty easily.

I do hope they don't decide to swarm too soon, but the frames I saw looked as if all was going well, and I managed not to get stung this time. It really helps to have your smoker giving a steady smoke and being gentle, trying not to kill too many while moving the boxes.

Oh yes, back to sourdough - I think I'll try some rye flour pretty soon - (heh, heh). Oh yes, with some really honest-to-goodness home made honey. LOL.

Just my 2 c's.

Bejay

As mentioned in seveal previous posts: Spread the starter on a sheet of plastic wrap. It literally falls off the wrap once its dried.
My french bread dough will be finalized today and the glob will be removed and stored in the fridge. I also have 10 pounds of Canadian bacon, in brine, thats under vacuum. It gets cooked tomorrow.
My cousin is into bee keeping and invested in the protective clothing as well as the netting and hat. Because the 'Killer bees' are heading north and mingling into the honey bee population, the outcome is a somewhat more agressive bee. The other issue is a tiny mite that is killing many colonies of honey bees. These tiny parasites get under the protective layers of the bee and feed on their bodies. The honey bee population in the US has been seriously afftected in the last 10 years or so, and less than half of whats out there now are the only survivers. This is the main reason I set up a mason bee colony here, just to help my fruit trees.

I use Saran Wrap now too. Sometime in the future will compare powder with thick flakes as a starter although kinda already have.

The bees in my part of Missouri have all but disappeared and I miss them greatly. I used to have a very healthy population of honeybees bumble and solitary bees back in the late 90s and I only rarely see just bumble and solitary now. The sonification produced by a bumblebee greatly improves tomato pollination. Fortunately the cukes I now grow for both eating and pickling (Cool Breeze) don't seem to need any help.

Check out my old cyber-friend Dave Green's web site below:

jt

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.pollinator.com/

The bottom line is - you can't expect to douse everything with pesticides and expect not to kill off bees. Without pesticides, they probably could ward off most of the diseases that have been destroying them.

Amen.

The bees I have now adopted my back yard - perhaps because I DONT use any pesticides or chemicals on my plants. They are doing fine. My plants are well-pollinated and they seem fairly content to forage in my own backyard on the trees and plants that are here.

Bejay

Bejay,

I don't use pesticides or fungicides either. I will occasionally use Miracle Gro 15-30-15 though so can't be called an organic gardener. More and more using aerated compost teas and composted manure in my soil-less mixes for my containers. I was completely organic back in the 60s when kids were young. The bee problem is because of a parasite mite if I understand things correctly. Now this may turn out to be a blessing in disguise as what most of us consider to be native honeybees are actually imports. Hopefully the true natives will repopulate and replace the dead imports.

Are the Planter's pop-ups irritating or what!!!! I vow never to buy another Planter's product.

jt

Repopulation of honey bees will be very difficult because of the parasitic mite that has been killing them, has moved on to other insects. Using some beneficial insects to kill bad bugs is fine, but avoid big guys like praying mantis. They LOVE snaching honey bees and will sit in wait on my basil once it flowers and then they eat the whole bee except its wings in less than half an hour. Orchard MASON BEES are the best pollinators and are less aggressive, mostly solitary, easy to keep in small nesting tubes, and will survive down to Z5. My early blossoming fruit trees all benefit from the mason bees as they are the first to hatch and do their thing. Here, I do have quite a few bumbles and a few other smaller bugs that like to browse through flowers too.

Getting back to sourdough, I mixed up the final sourdough with some regular bread flour, some added wheat gluten, lecithin, ascorbic acid and a little potato starch, some diastatic malt, and of course Kosher salt. After kneading, I added a little regular yeast and formed the loaves into long baggets to be baked as French bread. Most ofl the additives are to help moistness retention and keeps the bread from quickly spoiling. The malt is a natural grain based sweetener and helps to get the kick start on the final rising.

As to POP UP's, try the NETSCAPE browser version 7.2, or later. It blocks these automatically and I have only seen a single pop up in the last 6 months

My wild yeast sourdough starter is now 11 days old. There have been some changes during that time, however it has looked pretty much like this photo since day 4. The photo was made by window light, hence the shadows. It was taken about 12 hours after feeding. The image is slightly larger than life size. The yellowish areas are puddles of hooch.

I think I will bake something with it in the next day or two.

Jim

Jim,
Make sure you save a small amount before making the bread. Sometimes when I start a batch from my culture, I don't make enough, so I add a bit more flour and water after removing the saved portion. Then I allow it to work another day or two before making the bread. I found that if I preheat my oven to about 500 degrees at the start of the baking for just 5 minutes, then reduce to 375, the bread has less of a tendecy for collapsing. My culture looks similar, but because its not a batter, but more like sticky dough, I don't see much liquid seperation.

Jim -

Wow - with a HOLY batter like that, you just know it's going to be GOOD!

I think mine is about a day behind that. Sooo how did it turn out? What recipe - pizza or bread?

Bejay

Jim,

Excellent picture! I love illustrated posts. And just wait until you try some of that dough as a starter for fermenting veggies. I continue to have great success and be amazed at how good it is.

Ken,

I run Mozilla Firefox for a browser and it has been flawless for blocking popups except for Mon & Tue. Yesterday and today is blocking like it should. Not sure what the problem was.

jt

My Netscape let one through a few weeks ago too. Sometimes its just how the program is loaded in, one single bit off and it runs flaky..

"What recipe - pizza or bread?"

I'm thinking about splitting the difference and making focaccia. What about you?

Jim

"Make sure you save a small amount before making the bread."

I've started to increase the starter by adding more flour and water than I was adding for maintenance. Thanks for the tips.

"Excellent picture!"

Only a bunch of eccentrics like we have here could enjoy a picture of that mess.

Jim

After reading the above posts, I decided to get out my pH meter - (really won't leave home without it). It seems to be working down past the 6 mark. I decided that afterall, I still don't know a lot about the "real" meaning of sourdough "starter."

So - after reading/printing out the web site mentioned above, I am now waiting for the results of pH, and have some new 4.5 vinegar and wheat flour ready on stand-by (no pineapple juice or rye flour - drat).

It was bubbling a few days ago - (now realize prematurely), and having become more "learned" recently, will try for a more professional approach, to achieve a lower pH via newly made Rhine wine vinegar.

I started this particular vinegar on 02/05/07 with a saved vinegar mother, (marked on the bottle) and as luck or something, would have it, it fermented nicely in only a month's time. The previous burgundy vinegar took 3 months. I am at a loss to explain this, so perhaps anyone within ear shot can explain it to me. (oh-oh, here we go again!).

Will report back if we are still "on the air."

Bejay

Bejay,

My starters run below 3.7 pH.

One of my friends is going to bake bread trying live kefir grains in place of sourdough. Should be interesting. Seems I'm not the only weirdo in the world. He and his wife are way into healthy eating. Vegans etc. I cook with lard and eat all the red meat I can. LOL Pass the salt please.

jt

Last night I made up a sponge, mixing starter with additional flour and water then kneading it. I fed the starter and, after letting it work for a couple of hours put it in the fridge for future use. I let the sponge rest for a couple of hours, during which it expanded, but did not double. Then I put it in a very cool place so it would not become overly fermented during the night. I don't know if that was necessary or not. I'm learning.

Now, with the sponge back in a warm environment, I'm waiting until the sponge shows signs of good activity before mixing the dough.

I'm not giving precise details because I'm feeling my way and making changes as I go along.

Jim

"One of my friends is going to bake bread trying live kefir grains in place of sourdough."

Is your friend an experienced bread maker? I ask this because it might be very frustrating to work out an innovative method prior to getting the basic techniques under control. This is very apparent to me just now. I have baked a few loaves over the years, but I'm having to do some problem solving as I make this loaf of sourdough. Wish me luck.

Jim

Jim,

My friend is indeed experienced. Not Ken's level I'm sure though.

My friend Ian in England is having trouble getting a wild sourdough started. Says it just does nothing and is going to try putting it on a heating pad. (I hear those castles are cold:)

jt

Here is the sponge:

And the loaf. Not totally successful, but edible, actually tasty.

The crust is pretty good. The crumb is not bad. The flavor is sour as I would want.

The major fault with this loaf is failure to rise sufficiently. And it's a little underdone.

It is tasty, chewy and pleasant though. Onward!!!!

Jim

Helpful points, reduce the baking temp about 50 degrees to allow it to cook a bit slower and also to prevent over browning on the outside. When I did my french bread, the oven was started at about 500 degrees for only about 5-7 minutes and then reduced to about 350 for the remander of the baking. For the photo, it does look quite bubbly. Add a bit of regular yeast at the final kneading and forming time, along with a teaspoon of sugar to 'spark it' up a little.

Jim,

Incredible photos! Makes me want to bake some bread. Thanks!

Pass the butter please....

jt

Everyone is being polite and not saying what they must be thinking. So I'll have to say it myself.

Jim, your bread didn't rise.

Well, no it didn't rise much. Not nearly enough. I think I know the reasons. First of all, because I was not familiar with the rate of fermentation of this dough, I put it in a very cool place overnight to prevent it from rising too much. It turns out I shouldn't have worried about that. I should have just let it go at room temperature.

Then, after putting the loaf in the hot oven, I opened the oven to place a pan of water inside to produce steam. This was obviously wrong and probably caused the loaf to lose much of its oven spring. Just wasn't thinking clearly there.

I know I could have ensured a better rise by adding some commercial yeast, but I didn't want to do that.

I now have a nice starter and the next batch won't be much work. With a bit of luck I may get a good rise.

Jim

Place the pan of boiling water under the bread at the time it reaches 500 degrees. Then, after about 5-10 minutes reduce the temp to 350 to 375. The water helps to give extra moisture in the oven for hard crusty bread. Yours looks a bit over browned so a lower baking temp after the initial start of baking would offer a bit more baking throughout without the excessive browning. Adding a small amount of regular yeast will encourage big bubbles during the final minutes of the rise and at baking. Sometimes big bubbly bread has a nice appearance that people like. A good example is the 'nooks and crannies' on English muffins. Its all in how the yeast works for you, be it added, or your cultured.

Well - here goes. My sourdough first mix has been rising overnight. I think I'm using the same recipe as Jim did - mix a starter batch with half the flour, let rise 8 to 12 hours - but I let it go overnight (too tired).

So now, I'm about to add the rest of the flour and shape the loaves. I re-read your recent posts, and took heed.

As soon as the loaves are formed and allowed to rise (recipe says 1-1/2 to 2 hours), I will check back here to see if y'all have any new "words of wisdom" to offer.

I will add a bit of yeast (per Ken) and proceed with the oven temps and water advice thereafter.

Wish me luck - it smells good and overnight rise didn't seem to hurt any.

Bejay

Everything you are doing looks right to me. I used less than half the flour for the sponge. I think your recipe is better.

How did the overnight rise work? Did it give you a good increase?

I think it would take more than 1 1/2 to 2 hours for the second rise if you were not adding yeast. Since you are adding yeast that probably will be enough time.

I have to say that, after reading comments here and elsewhere from people whose bread didn't attain a sour flavor, I was surprised at the taste of mine. It was more strongly flavored than any I've had, even in San Francisco. I credit a long, slow fermentation.

I hope your results are good. That will encourage me to have another go at it.

Jim

Yes, I agree. My second to the last loaves were quite sour. It was noticably more sour as compared to the last batch. The starter was removed, and the rest remained on my counter for nearly 4 days before I stirred in a bit more flour to make it very thick and scretchy. Then it went in the fridge for 2 more days before I pulled it out, added the rest of the flour and kneaded for about 10-15 minutes. Then, I just added that half teaspoon of commerical yeast and formed it into french loaves and allowed it to rise. It took about 3-4 hours rise and to get large enough to bake. I had the oven going at 500 degrees for almost 30 minutes preheated, before putting the bread in. Then baked only about 8 minutes, before turning the temp down to about 375, and allowed it to bake until a medium/light golden brown. The crust was very crisp, even though I didn't use any pan of water in the oven. I used to spray the top with a non stick spray before baking, so the crust wasn't too hard, but found that it also causes some of the collapsing I used to see. Now that its risen without a cover and initially baked at 500 degrees for that few minutes, the top firms up before it has time to sag.

An invaluable tip I got from the other site is to use rice flour for dusting the board or cloth after shaping the loaves. This is assuming you let the loaves rise on a board or cloth and then need to move them to a preheated baking stone or pan in the oven. Rice flour really does prevent sticking. You don't need much. I would have had a mess without it. Sorry I forgot to mention this sooner, Bejay.

Jim

Just whipped up a batch of sour rye bread, but didn't use my sourdough culture. I had some very old sour rye flavor (heidleburg sour) from King Arthur that needed to be used up. I also added some burnt sugar for a darker brown color, onion powder, and some whole, and also, ground up caraway seeds. Its sitting on the counter going through its first rise. Because I also used up a lot of rye flour, I also added some very necessary wheat gluten as well as regular bread flour. It should be ready to bake some time this evening. I have used rice flour, and find that it tends to soak up quite a lot of moisture if its toughing it. For a non stick base, I prefer corn meal though.

Jim - I'm still trying to decide whether it is passable or not.

On the bright side, my starter is good. Nice sour flavor and it seemed to get good rise on the first two - but then on the final one, I thought "more flour and some yeast sprinkle" - I think I should have let it rise on its own - as the top cracked toward the end of rise - although kitchen becoming quite warm by then.

I think I still need a "refresher course" on "sticky" however, as I am still unsure about how much flour to add during the sticky periods.

Still needs work, but the loaf is quite tasty and will probably not "go to the chickens" as heretofor.

I also used my mixer and perhaps the recipe needed adjusting for that.

Bejay

Sticky would usually mean it sticks to the bowl, spoons, and fingers. My rye turned out poor. It didn't rise very much on the second rise even after about 7 hours. It baked up heavy, and is probably due to the fact I used too much rye flour and to little wheat flour. I was hoping, by adding a lot of extra wheat gluten, and knead it more, that it would come out a bit lighter, but it didn't. Oh well.. I'm thinking it may be nice as wild bird food, or cut up into small cubes to be used as salad croutons..

I really hate to say this, Ken, but you really made my day!

Sometimes it helps - you know, "misery loves company" and perhaps we can both go forward - onward, upward, never say die.

So you think a little less heavy flour might help the "stickies" eh? I used more gluten flour to make the starter and fed with wheat flour, but the bread itself was made with all-purpose, unbleached.

Still the flavor was quite good - just not getting the texture. I'll re-read all the literature, to see if I can come up with something.

I did notice when the starter is fed, it needs some time to "accept" the new addition of flour, but seems to become more sour as it does. Also, I was encouraged to get a good rise the first and second times WITHOUT added yeast.

During the last rise, however, when loaves were being formed, I started adding yeast and flour - I think I should have let the loaves do a slow rise on their own after adding a bit more flour to ease the stickiness.

Not too disappointed, as I liked the way the starter behaved this time.

Bejay

Yes, it does help to 'feed' the starter once its past 3 days. I usually just thicken it up each time by adding a bit more flour, and if I go too far, just a small amount of water is added and its left to ferment more. My whole wheat bread flour was quite light when I made the french loaves, but this rye was way too heavy (almost like lead bricks) and didn't rise very much even after adding that little 'zap' of commerical yeast at the last bit of kneading and forming into loaves. I even added a LOT of extra yeast in the beginning and the dough just sat there and 'crackled' (a faint bubble popping sound in the loaf pans). I was almost going to double the dough by making some more with just plain bread flour to 'dilute' the rye, but would have had rye bread coming out my ears for days afterwards. Needless to say it was not the best of a rye, and next time I will just use a half cup of rye flour per loaf or even less. I chopped up a lot of it to feed the birds today, but the bread was covered by 2 inches of snow in less than an hour, nor'easter here now and its at 8 inches already, and snowing like a son of a gun..

On a lighter side, I found this info on the King Arthur flour site. Its a pizza dough additive, dried cheese, garlic, and some herbs, easily duplicated with a bit of oregano, rosemary, basil, etc. If you do make pizza dough, use a little extra virgin olive oil in the dough too, as it helps to give it a better texture.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pizza flavor

hello all :

Been looking at this page for a while - and was inspired to try something I read - a wild yeast captured from Caraway seeds. After 5 days and a few additions of my own - think I have a live sponge - Started with soaking FRONTIERS ORGANIC Caraway seeds ( I read this - dont remember what site - said organic would be sun dried as to heat dried) in some water in jar - dash of flour - not really sure why
next morning drained seeds , added 1/2 of flour closed cap of jar and shook to mix - within 1 hr I had froth - next day still frothy - so put into bigger jar and added 1/2 flour and water - shook to mix - cracked lid for outgas - very frothy and smelled like fermentation
next day less froth strong fermentation smell - so added some apple cider vinegar from a dropper I was cleaning out - secured cap and shook - cracked lid for outgas - next day, little movement but lots of hooch and strong fermentation smell - so I added more vinegar , did the mixing etc... this morning I was making bread with yeast - decided to play with the concoction - used up organic fruit juice sweetened apricot fruit jam jar took 1/2 of the mix I started - just shook that to mix and cracked the lid - could smell a touch of vinegar in the mix - the main jar I just added some home stone ground white winter wheat flour - maybe 2 tablespoons and mixed with wooded spatula I mixed the yeast dough I had started last nite -now thick like pancake batter - just checked it a moment ago and appears to be live and starting to bubble
I shall report back tomorrow with more result - thought those might be interested in my experiment

cheers:

Very interesting. Keep up the reports.

Jim

Vinegar will usually kill the wild yeast that forms. You can get wild yeast off every single outdoor berry and most other fruits and vegetables. The original sour dough was made from several wild yeasts. My Polish grandfather also had his own for rye bread and white bread. I usually make a paste as opposed to a batter. If I want to preserve some without having to 'freshen' it every few months, I spread some on plastic wrap and let it dry. Then its stored in the fridge in plastic. The hooch is there, but with a vinegar overtone a bread may not like that kind of added acid. Ever try black caraway seeds?