Norway spruce tree line

16 years ago

I got a good deal on 4-5 foot norway spuces and am planing on putting them in a tree line. Was thinking 8' apart? Is this good spacing or too close? Also it is mostly clay soil. Should I use peatmoss and or furtilizer?

thanks kuhof

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Comments (9)

conifers
16 years ago
Plant them. maybe toss in 1/4 compost or less to loosen the clay (only use compost). I've seen plenty of screens with 8 foot on center Picea abies screens.

Dax
kim_dirtdigger
16 years ago
Follow Dax's advice. We have Norway Spruce planted in pretty heavy clay soil with no amendments added and they're doing just fine.
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Health and Beauty of Norway Spruce Trees--a Hypothesis
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spedigrees: Limestone varies in magnesium content. If you go to your local agricultural store--I am not sure what you have up there--and ask for “high mag limestone“--crushed or pulverized--they should be able to direct you. The analysis is always posted on the bag. Dolomitic limestone is generally “high-mag,” but perhaps other types of limestone have a high magnesium content. Our soils here in the northern Shenandoah Valley are very high in magnesium, and high mag limestone underlies a good portion of our soils, and high mag limestone is readily available. And, almost all the NS in this area look very nice, in spite of our hot, dry climate. As for soil acidity--that should not be a problem for Norway spruce, unless the soil is extremely acidic, maybe in the low 4’s. At my timberland, where the soils are a bit below 5, Norway spruce does very well. I am not sure what an optimum pH would be, and it would probably vary with soil type. Maybe somewhere in the 5.5 range is "safe." As for magnesium for Norway spruce--this has been fairly well documented. I titled my original post “a hypothesis,” but there is substantial evidence. A site factors study done at SUNY Syracuse some years ago now, noted that “at least 75 kg per hectare” is needed for good NS growth. Studies in Europe, where there has been extensive decline in NS forests, has shown that the acid rain causes a reduction in the availability of magnesium, and supplementing magnesium often solves the problem. And, I have made some personal observations--not scientific, and without all the facts--that magnesium supplementation can make a dramatic difference. But, the main effect of magnesium may not be in height growth, but in the fullness, density, and lushness of the foliage. I have seen many poor looking, thin foliaged NS trees growing reasonably fast in height. Also, the thin foliage on some Norway spruce trees has causes other than a lack of an optimum supply of magnesium. And, I know, some of that is genetic, and not correctable. As for your experiment: Yes, 5 years should be long enough to show some results, but no sooner. The limestone has to dissolve into the soil, get down to the roots, and, because NS hold their needles for several years, the "thickening" of the foliage may not be vis1ble for several years. BUT, and this is a big "but," the effect may not really show up on very young trees. It may help the growth rate, but as for foliage density, that is never really noticeable until trees are somewhat older and larger--maybe not until they are 20 feet tall or more will any difference be really clear. As for the growth rate: white pine usually starts growing faster than NS. How old are your trees? How tall? NS trees don't begin to grow fast until they are about 4.5 feet high, and that could be only after 6 to 8 years. At that point, they should "take off." On the best soils, and in the right climate, an average of 28 inches is possible, with some years the new shoots elongating up to 4 feet or more. But growth averaging 20 to 24 inches is good for many sites. Norway spruce and white pine, assuming equally good strains, should grow equally well over the first 50 years. The white pine up to about 18 years should outgrow the NS, but after that NS should catch up a bit. After 50 years NS should outgrow the white pine for some years. SUNY Syracuse did a growth curves study for NS, and found that for the first 60 years--after the trees reach 4.5 feet in height, there is no "curve" as such, but a straight line. White pine growth curves bend sharply over to the right after the first 18 years or so, and at 50 years the growth averages about 1 foot, while at the same age, NS trees can still be growing 28 inches per year. But this rate does begin to decline not too long after the 60-year mark. On the best sites both should eventually make 150 feet or more in forest stands. Open grown NS should make 120 feet or more on better sites. As for the blue spruce and magnesium, I really don't know. Tom may be right about this. --spruce
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hey try the link for a general discussion .. especially in regard to media ... you might get further.. by asking specific questions... rather than hoping someone will write you a complete thesis on growing ... do you have any info ... at all??? ken ps: actual xmas trees.. are highly pruned production trees... most trees do not grow in that shape.. all by themselves ... Here is a link that might be useful: link
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spruceman
16 years ago
8' spacing is good for a start, but as the trees mature they will need more room. For a single line of NS trees the eventual spacing should probably average 16 feet or more. But that could be many years away. 6 years ago I planted about a 200 foot line of NS on my property line and planted them a little more than 8' apart--for mowing and fencing purposes (I now have a new properly line and will be planting a line at least 800 feet long--I will post about my plans for that soon). About half of these trees I planted 6 years ago are really strong, the other half will be smaller and will in a few years be overwhelmed by the stronger ones. I will probably thin out the weaker ones in just a few years to give more room to the stronger ones and make the line look better.

One "problem," sort of, is that the good ones and the weaker ones are not always every other one. I may have two strong ones, then a weak one, then another strong one, then maybe three weak ones, two more strong ones--you get the idea? So in the end I may have two spaced 8' apart, then 16 feet, then another tree, then maybe three weak ones together, and here I could cut all three and have a space of 24 feet--not too bad when the trees get really big, or I could save the middle weaker one for a while. So the spacing is irregular. For me this is OK, but some people might want the eventual line of mature trees to have equal spacing. I don't know how to do that if you want to start with closer spacing and then eventually thin them for wider spacing, saving the best trees.

Well, I am sure you get the picture. Now I admit I am a Norway spruce nut, which I am sure you know by now if you have been reading my posts here for a while. NS trees have a lot of variability, and the really best ones are really, really beautiful. So I am always advising planting them so there is a maximum opportunity to get the maximum number of really beautiful ones--with fast growth and the dense weeping foliage, etc. So the more trees one can plant and the more opportunities one has to thin out the weaker, less beautiful ones, the more georgeous the final result. A triple row (offset) with the trees 6 X 6 is probably the best starting place I can devise. But planting this close requires a lot of trees and a lot of thinning, and a lot of difficulties protecting the trees and mowing around them etc. I doubt I will do this even for the screen that I am planning for my own property. I may do two staggered rows with each tree 10 feet apart with the rows 6 or 8 feet apart for the initial spacing. I am still thinking about what I will do.

Anyway, enjoy your trees. If you want them to get a really, really good start, I advise mulch and regular watering the first year, and watering during dry spells for two or three years after that.

--Spruce
Sherwood Botsford (z3, Alberta)
14 years ago
This is late, but it may help someone else.

For a long screen I recommend alternating conifer and quick deciduous. E.g. Norway spruce, trembling aspen. A shrub for the in between also works. Dogwood, lilac, caragana, buckthorn, chokecherry.

Here's my thinking:

1. The deciduous tree grows like a weed and gives you quick screening.

2. Spruce on 8 foot centers will conflict for resources by the time they are 20-30 feet tall.

3. If you plant a throw-a-way tree like poplar, by the time the spruce are big enough to fight, the poplar will be ready to be laid up for firewood.

Second caveat:

Plant two rows. But the second row has the spruce aligned with the poplar. In the long run this gives you a zig zag row of spruce.

Third caveat: Make sure your lawn mower can do a slalom course down the row. This makes it a lot easier to control grass and weeds while getting them established. I found that at 8 foot spacing I couldn't slalom, but at 10 feet I could.

PFRA now recommends 10-12 foot spacing for shelterbelts where before they recommended 8 for most conifers. I'm now telling my customers 8 feet for spruce and 12 feet for all but the narrowest pines.
Antonia Hall
8 years ago
Thanks, Sherwood for this valuable information about how far to space Norway Spruce. We just bought several trees to hide a bike trail that basically parallels our driveway -- we want to hide it and the powerlines across the street. We also bought a Sequoiadendron for this space; thinking that they will all three make a dramatic screen.
Mike McGarvey
8 years ago
How long is this line of spruces going to be? That would have a bearing on how many, how far apart, and the total cost.

Do you have the room or need to plant two staggered rows?

Sherwood, how do you propose to kill the aspens and cottonwoods after you cut them down? The roots sprout all over the place once they get large enough to cut down and both make poor firewood.

Mike
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
8 years ago
replying to a 9 year old post.. and debating a 6 year old reply is simply ludicrous ...

antonia has not really given us any information other than they bought some tree.. have a driveway.. and there is a bike path ... at least the power lines are across the street ...

it would be nice to know where they live.. what zone ... how long or wide the application..e tc ... before opining as to much of anything ... and a pic would be great ...

try all that.. in a new post ... they are free you know... lol ..

ken
Antonia Hall
8 years ago
Here ya go...

place: South Lake Tahoe

Zone: 3

Planting area: to the right of that Jeffrey. 20 long, about 6 wide. The County chopped down the other two 50' trees to make way for bike trail which is just beyond the dirt patch...Cyclists have a clear view right into our living room window. Which is why we want evergreen trees there...

Trees: 1 Sequoiadendron, 2 Norway Spruce and mixed

understory to be planted later. (I.e. Dogwoods, wild rose, other natives.

Sorry, didn't realize that was a 9 year post. But thanks for info about 8 foot centers. Nothing grows very fast up here, so not worried about crowding.
Antonia Hall
8 years ago
Oh, BTW, we have already spent 7K replacing trees and restoring ambience the County has destroyed.

Norway spruce tree line

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conifers

kim_dirtdigger

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