Spruce Recommendation?

12 years ago

BACKSTORY (fast forward to the question below if you dislike verbose backstories!):

Well, you may remember my post a few weeks ago asking for an ID on a Black Hills Spruce. Thank you all who helped me zero in on this ID. My next door neighbor (an original owner) confirmed that she remembered the previous owners putting in Black Hills. These are putting on growth super fast.... new growth being nearly a foot in all directions.

We're constantly correcting the previous owners landscape mistakes. We have 2 of these trees in our backyard. The left one is in too much shade (mostly by trees owned by neighbors) and is getting ugly on the inside of the tree. So, I did get hubby's ok to take this one out by next spring. This will be replaced with a shrub that can handle part shade.

The one on the right is quickly outgrowing its spot.

Hubby will not let me expand the boundaries of the garden that it's now coming out of. He said he didn't think the tree was growing this fast and didn't recall that just 2 years ago, it had 18" of space between it and the edge of the border. I'll had to show him pics!

So, in the short term (this week), I'll probably limb up this tree so you can mow the border around it. In the long term (within a year or two), we'll have to look to replace it.

HERE'S THE QUESTION:

The bed is about 12-15 feet wide. What kind of options do we have for a replacement? I guess I'd want it to stay smallish like that for at least 10-15 years. I was kinda thinking about a Colorado Blue Spruce? The neighbors have them and they do look lovely.

Last month, I saw Picea mariana 'Golden' (Golden Black Spruce) at a nursery and really like it. The tag said slow growing, 10-15' wide. Is that what is pictured below:

TIA,

Melissa

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Comments (16)

dcsteg
12 years ago
Melissa,

First of all that is a very nice landscape setting you have to work with.

I hate to think that the removal of that beautiful conifer is necessary but as you say it is quickly out growing its space.

Forget about limbing up. That look you will not be happy with.

I would again talk to Hubby to let you expand that circle 2 ft. In my opinion that will not destroy the design and buy you some time to think about a replacement. Take him out to dinner if he still is not receptive.

If you want to go with a blue conifer, Picea pungens, then my first thought would be Picea pungens 'Sester Dwarf'. 15 ft.X 6ft. wide in 10 years give or take depending on your micro-climate.

Check out my post...Picea pungens 'Sester Dwarf' photo gallery posted yesterday or Google it.

There are others in the mix if you don't like this one

Picea pungens 'Glauca 'Pendula' a weeper also comes to mind.

Now you have something to think about.

Dave
donn_
12 years ago
I would hate to sacrifice a beautiful tree like that for the sake of some turf grass. You shouldn't have even asked 'Hubby' about widening the bed. If he didn't notice the tree out-growing the bed, he probably wouldn't have noticed a little widening of the bed.
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Wow - you dug up a seriously old post! So I did end up planting a very long screen -- basically the entire length of the property line -- and I'm actually really happy with how it turned out. We used Thuja Green Giant arborvitae in the center where the tallest part of the house we are trying to block out is -- we planted them a decent distance apart, not all jammed up like I see people do for a property line screen. They have grown fast, widened out, and are basically almost up to the roof of the house we are trying to hide. I think they should cap out right about 35 feet or so, which won't block the view. We planted a few during our initial planting then filled in with a few more a couple years later -- those later plantings are a bit stunted - not sure if it's because we squeezed them into less space or they were just inferior to begin with (originals came from a nursery and were planted by a landscaper, later ones from Home Depot and we DIYed them). But they are all growing well and healthy, and seem impervious to deer, wind, cold, snow, etc. To the sides of the arborvitate, we used Nellie Stevens hollies. They too have grown fast. They don't much care for the wind -- they ended up looking pretty bad by the end of the last two winters (which were brutally cold and windy) but they filled in with new leaves in the spring. The deer don't seem to eat them either. And again, I think they cap out at 20 feet or so. To the sides of that (which is getting away from blocking the house and now just screening their yard from ours) we used forsythias planted very close together that we let grow wild into a thick hedge -- mainly because I love forsythia. It's not evergreeen but the hedge is so thick and branches are so close together that it does a decent job of screening even in winter. And in spring when it is in bloom, it is an absolutely stunning wall of yellow. Again the deer don't bother them and they seem to grow well without much care. And finally at the very end of the property lines, we used sea green junipers -- again, we were looking for something evergreen but it didn't need to be tall - we were only trying to hide the neighbor's "junk pile" which was unfortunately located so that it was the first thing you saw when you pulled into our driveway. Those are the plants that look the sickliest -- there's always big brown patches in them and the snow breaks the branches. But they are farthest from the house and from far away they look ok, so I don't mind them. I think if I had to do it over again, I'd have used all forsythia instead of also using juniper -- the forsythia are just so amazingly gorgeous when they are in bloom. I would take a picture for you but we are in the middle of a storm right now -- if I remember, I will get one tomorrow. Here's a link to a pic of what it looked like when we first planted itin 2009: Newly planted And here's a shot from the summer of 2012 (sorry for lousy pic -- best I could find): Three years old I would say that this year it really started to look good since the green giants are basically touching now.
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never heard of it ... see link IF!!! ... that picture is correct to the plant ... AND .. you look at the 2 foot of new growth on the leader.. and the 18 inches on the laterals.. let me tell you ... it WILL NOT be as the description says :Very narrow and very upright so forget about that one.. and you ask for other suggestions.. but you fail to list your specs.. color.. form.. etc .. do understand.. that .. as trees.. every conifer has a predictable annual growth rate ... and it will grow at that rate.. FOREVER ... MOST size estimates are at 10 years.. and at 20 years.. it will most likely be twice as big ... etc ... so its all about how big it is when you buy it.. and how fast it will grow beyond such.. what size are you contemplating.. in regard to the waterfall ??? and do plan on a named cultivar.. rather than a species ... if the waterfall is already there.. it would sure help to provide a picture of the location ... for more precise suggestions ... ken Here is a link that might be useful: link
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
12 years ago
hey mel.. slummin in the conifer forum??.. lol

review the link.. pay attention to annual growth rates.. and understand.. as trees .. they will grow at that rate.. for the rest of your life.. your lids life. and grandkids ...

ALL size estimates.. in regard to conifers.. are in 10 years.. and in 20 they will be twice as big..

so that tag you saw ... 10 to 15 feet in 10 years.. means it will ... ONCE ESTABLISHED .... grow one to 1.5 feet per year ..

in other words.. will be as big.. if not bigger.. than the one you want to get rid of ...

back to the link.. i think you should look for dwarfs ... that grow 6 inches or less per year... so that in 10 years.. it will be 5 feet.. then 10 feet... etc ...

once i get you to this point.. i ask.. what color would please you??? .. and then i would ask.. why a spruce... is there a reason you would forgo any other size appropriate conifers???

finally ... the next planting time for conifers.. is mid to late fall.. so you have plenty of time.. to get the plan all set ...

WTH ??? why do you have a janet mills pic of a hosta.. isnt she the publisher of the AHS journal???

ken

ps: plain old blue spruce are GIANT forest trees .. not for your backyard .... but there are some glorious dwarf versions ...

Here is a link that might be useful: link
ginkgonut
12 years ago
Check out some of the dwarf forms of Abies concolor or Abies lasiocarpa (see link) if you like blues. I prefer them over the blue spruces, but are harder to find around town.

Golden black spruce is not all that slow growing, but seems to stay rather slender.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sub Alpine Fir
thisismelissa
Original Author
12 years ago
Dave, I do like the Sesters Dwarf you suggested. I wonder if I could find a local source for it? And thank you for your kind words about my landscape. Just 4 years ago, it was just lawn, bare dirt and some poorly placed trees. Again, correcting the previous owners mistakes.

Donn, hubby and I have an agreement that garden care is MY thing, lawn care is HIS. He's one of these yahoos that likes to have a nice big lawn, yet he doesn't really like to care for it. *rolls eyes*. We do, however, have a 5 year old and are hoping to adopt another child soon, so we do need to have some lawn...enough to kick a ball around. I am going to widen the hosta bed by a few feet, but that area where that healthy Black Hills is, he's kinda protective over it since the space between it and the birch in the foreground is open space to the neighbor and there's a little room for the ball to spill into their space. And, unfortunately, in order to get rid of the grass, he'd have to know about it... he'd see it in process. I could, however, let the tree kill the grass. It's happening with another Black Hills in the front yard.

Ken... Slummin? Hardly! I just don't have the conifer bug like y'all do here! But you sure are smart folk! K.
I guess, in 10-15 years time, if the tree was the matures size as on the tag, that would be fine. By then, with kids maturing and going to college and hubby in his 60's, it won't be as necessary to have ball kickin' space! The problem exists NOW. If it were 10-15 years from now, it wouldn't be a problem. Ok, size, you know what I need. Color, I do like a powdery blue. It goes nicely with the burgundy and chartreuse that I have going on in this bed (just out of view). I would also be up for something bi-color or gold. Why a spruce? Well, I don't usually care for pines and the others, I don't know that much about, I suppose. I'd even consider a shrub, I suppose, if I liked it enough.

RE: Janet Mills pic. This was distributed with the Online Hosta Journal last December. You could download it as a desktop background. I've been looking at that pic for 6 months wanting to know what the tree is. Do you know?

ginkgonut... I didn't know that firs look so much like spruce. Perhaps I should give them more consideration.
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
12 years ago
now this cracks me up.. i didnt even see the pine needles in the hosta picture ... lol ...

but that one is not powdery blue ...

so you want a blue.. and a dragon eye [golden ghost if you can find it] .. thats two ... lol ..

how far are you from chicago .. and the place at the link??? .. forget about the web.. time for a road trip .... go see them.. feel them .... smell them .. etc ..

next proper planting time is fall ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link
gardener365
12 years ago
That variegated tree looks like Douglas fir, of, a variegated selection.

A replacement "blue spruce" ideal is
Picea engelmannii 'Bush's Lace'.

Dax
thisismelissa
Original Author
12 years ago
Well, like I said, Ken, I like powdery blue, but I also like golds and bi-colors. And it appears that these variegated red pines fall into the bi-color catergory.

Chicago is about 6-7 hours away. I wonder if there's a conifer specialist closer by. I have a feeling that this could be a tough search, even to find a dwarf blue spruce.
texjagman
12 years ago
A few others you might consider are R H Montgomery, Baby Blue Eyes, Misty Blue and Spring Blast for that springtime pop. I'm also a big fan of the aforementioned Picea engelmannii 'Bush's Lace'. I think it's a gorgeous tree.

One last consideration of a tree with bright blue color but has more of an open feel would be one of the narrow blue deodoras like Sander Blue. Many can be found with as electric a blue color as any spruce but most have more of a whispy pendulus form than the rigid spruce. In time it will spread, but as you said 10-15 years from now that may not be an issue.

mark
dcsteg
12 years ago
deodoras for zone 4a would be short lived.

Dax choice of Picea engelmannii 'Bush's Lace' would be a knockout.

Dave
whaas_5a
12 years ago
Yep, that one is on my wishlist for next spring.

So, what I want to know (and its problaby killing Ken right now) is how do you have that many hosta growing under a silver maple (at least it looks like one)?
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
12 years ago
yeah.. i confused MN with WI ... that would be one heck of a car trip.. lol ...

half of my collection came mail order ...

i like girards nursery ... but root surgery will be necessary.. so next proper planting time is when the leaves fall off the other trees ... so you have plenty of time to research.. and remove.. etc ...

the links above and below mail orders ... though july/august is not the best time ...

will has posted reviews of various mail order firms..

i dont leave my pix up forever.. should you ever see something i posted under the latin name .. and wish the pic back up .... just bump up the post with a request.. i will get the pic reposted ...

i know you are hardcore.. garden-wise .... the thought that you would limit yourself to a green tree that is sold at the bigboxstore is an anathema to your collector genes ... you have succeeded as a REAL gardener .. when the hosta peeps come on a tour .. and ignore the hosta .. to look at all the other things that are so unusual ... then you have a top of the line garden ... [at the national a few years back.. what inspired all the southern folks... was the great diversity of conifers that they cant grow.. they said they had seen so many hosta gardens.. that the other stuff was much more interesting ...]

ken
a few of my faves:
Abies koreana Silver Show or near the same as A. k. silberloche
{{gwi:751503}}

Abies concolor Conica -- the color is much bluer than the pic suggests ...
{{gwi:770327}}

Abies lasiocarpa [var. arizonica] 'Compacta' -- the color is much bluer than the pic suggests ... you can see.. if you look close.. the annual growth rate of about 4 to 6 inches ....
{{gwi:770329}}

Here is a link that might be useful: link
whaas_5a
12 years ago
With a recommendation there goes a no vote as well. I had too many strikes on one order to ever order from them or suggest them.
texjagman
12 years ago
Oops, I didn't see that zone 4......

mark
tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱
12 years ago
Have you been to Gertens in Eagan, MN and looked at their conifers? I've never been there but recall having heard they have a nice selection. Even if not to buy from, at least to get some ideas.

BTW Tsuga canadensis 'Vermeulen Wintergold' would go nice in that shadier spot. Though listed at 6 inches per year, your climate would give it more like 4 inches a year. Gold in winter and light green by summer's end (a different type of two-toned effect).

tj
thisismelissa
Original Author
12 years ago
tj...
Gertens is about 25 minutes from me. I've been there 2-3 times already this year, but not in the last 6 weeks of so.

Maybe a quick trip up there is in order. Or, at least a browse of their online catalog. I bought a tree-form Diablo Ninebark there last year, and besides the powdery mildew, it's growing fantastically!

you have succeeded as a REAL gardener .. when the hosta peeps come on a tour .. and ignore the hosta .. to look at all the other things that are so unusual ... then you have a top of the line garden ...

Ken, thanks for the kind words. I don't think my garden would ever be worthy of the national AHS convention. It's said that you need to have 45 minutes of interest to be on the tour. And while one or two of the eight on tour here in MN last year failed in that regard, I don't think I could beat them. I do not care for "ordinary", other than the Colorado Blue. But a dwarf blue may be my best solution.

whaas... on the far left of the pic is a silver maple. They line my entire back lot. My hostas seem to grow in spite of them. I'm starting another garden under a huge silver maple (out of frame) and will likely put those hosta in SpinOut bags. The tree in the middle of the pic is a Box Elder.... I HATE those trees! But this one is on the property line. Last year, I took out another Box Elder (my portion of it anyway) and asked the neighbors if they wanted me to take out there portion... 4 pathetic trunks at a 45 degree (or less) angle to the ground. They declined. So, now, I'm stuck with a suckering stump. I digress.

All, I appreciate your zeal for weeping types like Picea engelmannii 'Bush's Lace', but they are not for me (or hubby, for that matter), at least, not in this spot. For this location, I want to stick with something more upright.

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