Why so much variation among cultivars of Cryptomeria?

16 years ago

What is the explanation for so much variation among cultivars of Cryptomeria? (Is there any other conifer species with such wild variation?)

Is there something different about the DNA of this species?

Alternatively, is it because Cryptomeria hails from Japan, and the Japanese have a hoary gardening tradition?

Other explanations?

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Comments (5)

tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱
16 years ago
...Is there any other conifer species with such wild variation?...

They don't hold a candle to Picea abies.

tj
pineresin
16 years ago
Primarily the long gardening tradition in Japan. The same can be said of many other species with a long history of popularity in Japanese gardening.

Resin
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This is kind of off topic of the thread, but sunleafmoon if you had species of plants native to your area planted, then you got natives, grafted or not. The differences you are noticing between the planted natives and the naturally occurring natives in your area are most likely due to their provenance or as you suspect with the Dogwoods, possibly specific cultivars being planted. You can get native species planted on your property, but they could be grown from seed collected in a far off part of that species native range and thus you might notice differences between them and the ones naturally occurring in your area. Cultivars can also originate from seed grown plants from far off areas(to your area) of the species native range or represent extreme forms/mutations of the species. So, it sounds like you wanted local provenance native trees planted, but you probably got non-local provenance native trees planted. It's uncommon(at least here in Eastern Kansas) for locally native tree species found in nurseries to be grown from local provenance trees. Most are shipped in from a wholesale nursery out of state and the wholesaler grows them from seed collected in their local area or they grow them from seed from wholesale seed companies who collect them from who knows where. Smaller local nurseries(I've found most all of these are started by former farmers or people who grew up on a local farm) and local nurseries who specialize in natives seem to grow much more of their trees from local provenance seed sources.
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Clonal cultivars have the same DNA. Often old cultivar names come to be represented by multiple clones over time. And named forms of annual plants, such as flowering annuals and flowering vegetables usually consist of seed strains. Perennial plant cultivars may also be represented by seedlings rather than clonal propagations in practice. Two familiar examples are seedlings being sold as the 'Palace Purple' heuchera and the 'Bloodgood' Japanese maple. Some of these often look markedly inferior in leaf coloring to true-to-type vegetatively propagated stock. Clonal conifers exhibit a variation phenomenon known as cultivariance, where cuttings or scions taken from different parts of the stock plants develop into specimens with different growth habits reflecting where on the parent plant the propagation material came from. If a variant growth pattern persists long enough such plants may even be put on the market as independent cultivars, even though these are genetically identical to the stock plants. A familiar example is Abies procera 'Glauca Prostrata', not really a distinct cultivar but rather a cultivariant of A. procera 'Glauca'. Specimens so-called may remain prostrate indefinitely or they may produce leaders and transform back into 'Glauca'. Plants of Sequoia sempervirens 'Prostrata' sold here are often quite quick to send up vertical shoots and return to S. sempervirens 'Cantab'. Another common cause of variation in conifers is the influence of rootstocks, seedlings of normal vigor causing scions of dwarf cultivars grafted onto them to grow more vigorously themselves and vary markedly from the characteristics of the original seedling or broom. Lists often use descriptions of the original mutations to market stock that may behave quite differently over time.
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Botanist chiming in. The biggest advantage nurseries have over us is better climate control. Give a plant the right temps, sunlight, and moisture it will so its thing with or without you. Really, we aren't that special. ;) I worked in a garden center/nursery, greenhouses, and a florist.. It is really it is hard to water on a "schedule" and misters are always breaking and often not fully efdective but they do get watered frequently. Daily even, and nurseries can get away with water levels that would kill regular houseplants because the heat and sun in those things dries them out fast. Also, they don't have to be troubled with maintaining them for years... Another trade "secret" is the fact that every dead icky piece is cut off before you see it. Haven't commercially grown houseplants, possible there is some special blend of hormones and such (gibberelins are not in use often for this to my knowledge, that was more an experiment to boost food yields that largely failed, because plants that grow that fast put no energy into resistance and are fertilizer/pesticide guzzling wimps), but its been my experience that growers put as little overhead in as possible. But generally are more inclined to feed heavily. Then, when you get it home the plant has to adjust to less light, water, heat, and humidity, and often less fertilizer and goes through a transition phase while it acclimates. I really doubt there is a magic proprietary chemical formula out there, its just good old fashioned climate conditions letting the plant do its thing in a way we can't recreate at home.
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Most 'Elegans' and similar selections - no matter how large - I see here have a curved trunk lower down, as though having been bent or pushed over at one point. An 'Elegans' I planted on Camano Island in the 80's is no longer there, off the top of my head I believe it split apart under a snow load. But maybe it froze instead - as this cultivar apparently often does this far north*. Driving down 101 to northern coastal California is a good way to see 'Elegans' (and a similar cultivar) - along with golden Monterey cypresses - in a favorable climate. There these trees become repeatedly seen roadside features, when passing through inhabited sections. It's to be expected of course that fixed juveniles such as 'Elegans' might not be as resilient as more normal forms that soon go on to produce adult foliages and stem growth. Otherwise any conifer that grows rapidly may have been allowed to become root-bound during production, resulting in falling or leaning over after planting out. Especially something as vigorous and heavy topped as Leyland cypress. Then there is the problem of terribly root-bound stocks being grafted upon, something that is universally evident among finished specimens presented at local retail outlets... Most asking about plants are not experimenters or collectors, want kinds chosen to be safe choices. Consistent with this Heruga has made it clear from the start they are after assurances of a predictable outcome. *For whatever specific reason one year the more coppery than usual winter color doesn't go away in spring and the specimen never starts growing again. I have seen this happen to multiple examples
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jaro_in_montreal
16 years ago
Actually, having obtained a number of different Cryptomeria cultivars, I get the impression that the variation isn't all that great: Mostly, the density of branching changes, but otherwise the needles & fronds are quite recognisable.....

Having said that, thanks for starting this thread -- I'm certainly a Cryptomeria fan :O)
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
16 years ago
i think of it this way ...

the jap's [and i use the term with respect] have spent some three thousand years fixating on their gardens.. and have noted and cataloged all the variations of those plants that thrive in their domain .... go figure ... puts our 200 years to shame .. and britians 941 years [2007 less 1066] to shame ....

i figured that out.. when i got all excited about all the blue parviflora .... and my god.. they all look the same to me... unless you look REAL CLOSE ....

ken

PS: i guess resin already said such ... pshaw. .. lol
noki
16 years ago
Chamaecyparis seems like the most variable to me... compare C. pisifera 'Boulevard' to the golden threadleaf types to the fuzzy types to the green normal foliage

Cryptomeria do have that one where the branches are deformed 'Cristata' i think... not sure how many conifers have a similar variation like that

Cryptomeria seem very cool and alien to me, maybe because they are not grown where I live. The branches seem to get killed off in the winter, especially facing the sun. I saw a 10 foot Cryptomeria in the open in somebody's yard, and it did appear to be surviving but looked kinda pathetic, very gaunt with dead old interior branches and old cones still on the branches looking messy.

What cultivars might actually do okay in a harsher climate, if to try? I got a Black Dragon last year but almost half the branches died during the winter, it was very badly root bound anyway.

Why so much variation among cultivars of Cryptomeria?

Comments (5)

tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱

pineresin

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jaro_in_montreal

ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

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