Check out Longwood Gardens plant explorer page. They have these trees with accession dates prior to 1955, with pix.

https://plantexplorer.longwoodgardens.org/weboi/oecgi2.exe/INET_ECM_DispPl?NAMENUM=5766&DETAIL=0&startpage=1#images

As posted by indianagirl, there will be plenty at arboreta and public gardens up and down the east coast...some surely 50 years old, but ascertaining the correct age might be a challenge. The finest I've seen with my own eyes are in SE Virginia, but just at various older residential gardens, not at the NBG. So I couldn't say specifically where. I think, although technically hardy to 5b or whatever, I don't know the exact rating, the best looking specimens are often in at least 6b ranging up to 8a or beyond. In other words when I see them in cooler areas (and/or less optimal soils) they are either smaller or rattier looking. Like, right here along the upper Bay (7a/7b ish), mine look superb so far on my deep loamy soil, but one at a fast food restaurant nearby, probably planted on 100% clay fill of an embankment, was ratty and hideous for years before being cut down. Not much of a climate difference, but a soil difference for sure. Likewise I remember spotting a row up in, oh, either Harrisburg or Lock Haven...somewhere up in central PA...definitely cooler climate to be sure, that were somewhat dwarfed appearing and sparsely branched, as though it was a little chilly there for that particular clone. Or maybe a little dry in summer even. But, I'm just going to guess, there are probably some fine ones in Boston and the NYC area, if you know where to look for them.

For example...not 50 years old but looking healthy in a rather cold climate: https://dawesarb.arboretumexplorer.org/taxon-21557.aspx

BUT, a selected cultivar grown in a professionally managed collection. My point in the prior post is I've seen a lot more that look that good, but older, in SE VA that I have anywhere else. So down there in 8a with abundant heavy summer rainfall, long growing season, deep sandy soils with a high water table, etc. etc. it's just a matter of putting any old cultivar in the ground and waiting. It's not that you can't have a superb looking one in 6a, just less likely to see them.

Thanks Indianagirl and David, I am right on zone 7 and sometimes 6b so I will assume that a cryptomeria will grow at its fullest extent here. The main thing I want to know is how much space would I need for a cryptomeria Yoshino or radicans when planting. Assuming that it will be there forever. I'm very surprised a species can grow as much as 42 ft wide here In just 60 years... Around here all big cryptomerias are the same size and don't see any old specimens so just wanted to know

As indicated in above posts you can't learn the outcome seen on another planting site and then expect an exactly matching result on yours. Plants vary, it's not like buying a manufactured object. Cloning is used to introduce a greater degree of uniformity and predictability but variations in climate and other site conditions still remain significant. Even just irrigation practices by themselves can markedly effect growth rates and crown density.

The Myth of Uniform Plant Performance

https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/tree-heights.pdf

I know they vary but the variance shouldn't be that significant. I don't think there can ever be a 50 year old 30 foot tall cryptomeria. I don't need to know the exact. Just knowing the approximate range is good enough for me. For example, someone saying to me the width of a 50 year old cryptomeria would probably range from 35 ft to 45 ft is an answer I am looking for...

I don't think there can ever be a 50 year old 30 foot tall cryptomeria

Depends on what kind it is and how it does on a particular site. There is, in fact that much variation - see for instance the comparison of ginkgoes on the page I linked to.

In nature an otherwise tall growing species of conifer can be hundreds of years old and still shrub height, where site conditions produce such a result. Perhaps one of the most extreme examples is sub-alpine fir, which is known both as a creeping mat and a 100 ft. spire.

Here is cryptomeria walk @ Nat'l Arboretum which dates to the '70's. You can also search for online images. How tall are they? Don't know, Why not pay them a visit?

interesting that you site a couple of cultivars that were selected by the Japanese timber industry for extremely vigorous growth (read: quickly turnaround from start to lumber). Is it possible that you're hoping for other-than-intended growth habit?

I mean the large varieties like Yoshino, radicans, and the species. But I'm saying the majority will probably have similar height range. I don't worry about the lesser percentages.

I wanted a cryptomeria that grows tall but very narrow. Something like 60 ft tall by 20 ft wide is good. Saves alot of space. I was thinking of gyokuryu but some sites say they get enormous and some say they are dwarf. Idk which is true or not.

Gyokuryu will put up a leader; I've had those leaders be over a foot in length. If you trim that off, the plant will grow into a large shrub. Leave the leader alone and you'll get a tree.

I see. Does the foliage look similar to Yoshino or the species? I can't tell from google images. Also does it get as big as Yoshino or the species? Basically I want something that either looks exactly like the species or Yoshino but smaller.

'Rasen'.

Brilliant, Sara! A 60-foot 'Rasen' might only be 5-feet wide and oh so sparse. It's a really cool, ultra-narrow freak.

The foliage of Gyokuryu looks more like Yoshino than many Cryptomeria cultivars. It just has shorter internodal spaces.

| NVBT EN

Thanks. Now my choices are either rasen or gyokuryu. But rasen has this whirled foliage habit that makes it a little different from the species.. Which makes me lean toward gyokuryu. How tall and wide will gyokuryu likely get at maturity?

Now how do ya go 'bout rasen this here rasen?

It's rasenably straightforward!

Cryptomeria j. 'Rasen' doubled in size this year for me. The tag was at the top of the tree in the Spring. In a pot with no fertilizer, just homemade potting soil of wood chips and loam. 50-50. It's going to be interesting to see how this tree progresses.

The other tree is a Cornus kousa from seed.

Mike, how did you make that cryptomeria so narrow like that at that height? And how exactly wide is it?

"Mike, how did you make that cryptomeria so narrow like that at that height? And how exactly wide is it?"

Heruga...you gotta read everyone's posts more carefully.

'Rasen' is very narrow, all on its own, when young. I'd post a picture of mine but it basically looks like Mike's. However it will widen somewhat with age, as the link I posted shows. I'm beginning to think you want a Cryptomeria that will look like Italian Cypress. I don't think there is one.

One of the cool things about Rasen is the 'scorpoid' (I think that's the technical term) arrangement of leaf scars on the stems and young part of the trunk.

My Rasen has been in the ground for four years, planted as a #5. It's delightfully twisty and weird, very narrow (2' or so) and about 8-10' tall. Now four years is nothing in the life of this plant, but it's wonderful and full of personality even as a youngster.

David, I'm not talking about the rasen. I'm talking about that big cryptomeria japonica species on his first pic. I don't think I have to read posts more carefully. I'm not really interested in rasen anymore. Not too crazy about that weird foliage

'Rasen' is an awesome plant. The weirder the better for this Conehead. If I want to look at conventional trees, I'll take a walk in a forest (where I'll be looking for more weird trees and witch's brooms).

"Not too crazy about that weird foliage"

That's one of the major attractions of almost any cultivar of cryptomeria - they have really great and often uncommon foliage texture. I particularly favor 'Cristata', 'Spiralis', 'Spraliter Falcata' and 'Araucaroides'. The weirder the better in my book :-))

Mike's 'Rasen' looks like something that would be quite vulnerable to snow loads.

Well, there's really no escaping the issue of snow loads with most "cupressiform" (just making that word up?) evergreens in the mid-Atlantic climate. The most immune seem to be ones with very tight forms and strong, short branches. 'Green Giant' is an improvement in this respect over leylandii. After the worst snow storm of the polar winters, I was driving up in south-central PA and saw quite a few leyland cypress knocked over from snow and wind, in addition to some just having foliar burn. Avoiding split leaders is obviously incredibly important. I had a rather nice Juniperus virginiana in my yard, about 55 years old. One of the big late 2000s snow storms split it along a split leader. The other side came down in storm the following summer. (it wasn't near a house so I didn't worry about leaving 1/2 of it up) My 'Sekkan Sugi' got caught in an uneven ice-snow load last winter, due to being beside a hemlock that protected one side, and the heavy side was alarmingly pulled down. Like, several yards off normal. It was arc shaped. But it seems ok now and was able to right itself. OTOH, a nearby 'Rasen' a little bigger than Mike's, didn't seem to have enough snow-ice stick to it to cause a problem. Finally my Cupressus whatever from China (still not sure, Bean implies C. duclouxiana would not be hardy here, but that's what it was sold as) had to be righted with rope and a tie-down. It had a very, very thin profile...thinner than Mike's big Crypto pictured above. SO if you are thinking you will be 100% immune from the issue based on cultivar selection, you are probably wrong.

Heruga sorry I snapped but you seemed to be belaboring the point? Most, but not all, cultivars and seedlings of Cryptomeria have narrow profiles when young and probably for your foreseeable future lifespan. Because, of course, the ancient ones in Japan become wider that 8' diameter or whatever you are aiming for in the next 50 years. (Unless some upcoming technological advance means a young human now can expect to live 300-500 years! Then you can worry about that!) OTOH, none are super thin like "Italian Cypress". I really doubt Mike did something special to keep his thin - it's pretty typical looking, but we will look forward to him speaking of course. Mike if there are pictures of you trimming that in a cherry picker, I want to see it! I'm going to GUESS based on what I see with other plants, that seedlings of SOME species might be a little more likely to maintain a thin profile, longer, than cutting grown cultivars*...unless that cultivar is specifically selected to be fastigiate. Not sure if that applies to Cryptomerias though. This has to do with physiological things that happen when some plants are grown from cuttings.

* - well what really happens is they start out more upright, and stay that way.

Ron said: 'Rasen' looks like something that would be quite vulnerable to snow loads.

Speculative. FWIW, 'Elegans' actually gets pretty floppy after a heavy snow, but it springs right back.

I (and most conifer enthusiasts) would rather focus on several awesome attributes rather than one theoretical detriment. It's way more fun that way.

Did you notice how I used the word, "enthusiast?"

That's one of the major attractions of almost any cultivar of
cryptomeria - they have really great and often uncommon foliage texture.
I particularly favor 'Cristata', 'Spiralis', 'Spraliter Falcata' and
'Araucaroides'. The weirder the better in my book :-))

Agreed, and even plain old Cryptomeria japonica looks strange to most people. Some neighbor of mine, fortunately departed, said to me a couple times that the 'Radicans' I planted near the property line was "real odd lookin'". Said with enough apprehension to make me think that what she really thought was that it was dark-sided.

Agreed with David's outlook. If you're just in it to be safe with respect to snow loads, buy a 'Green Giant'. If you're an enthusiast, you have to deal with some degree of uncertainty about some of your plants, at least.

Some people here may already know but I am a naturalist gardener(is that how you call it?) I like to make my garden as natural looking as possible and make it look like you're out in real nature such as the woodlands, prairies, mountains etc. Which means I have no interest in unnatural looking cultivars that look distinctively different than the original species. Thats just my preference in gardening. So that is why I look for something like the cultivar Yoshino or radicans because they look very similar to the species.

About the snow though... that is one reason I grow conifers. I love the beauty scene of snow covered conifers. Winter is such a dreading season for me(and probably most gardeners) because I can't go out in the garden and do things like I do in the rest of the 3 seasons and all the other plants are gone so snow covered conifers is one thing I find enjoyment on in the winter. Although I did not know they have the potential to cause such big damage to conifers. I heard about sciadopitys not holding up snow well but I didn't know many others also don't..

Well I was thinking of trimming all new side growth on the bottom half of the cryptomeria while it is still young and small and reachable for me so it'll stay thinner? Will that work? I'm most likely going to choose radicans because Yoshino is just too wide and I can't find the species tree for sale anywhere, and I would like to keep this tree's width a maximum of 20 ft during my lifetime.

" I like to make my garden as natural looking as possible and make it
look like you're out in real nature such as the woodlands, prairies,
mountains etc. Which means I have no interest in unnatural looking
cultivars that look distinctively different than the original species.
Thats just my preference in gardening."

"Well I was thinking of trimming all new side growth on the bottom half
of the cryptomeria while it is still young and small and reachable for
me so it'll stay thinner? Will that work?"

Cognitive dissonance alert!

Just let the tree grow as it is. I am almost sure I've never seen a crypto for sale that had a troublesome split leader than needed cutting.

I think it's also important to think about the definition of "maximum width." Are you interested in width at the base? Crown? If you really want a "natural" look, notice how many trees in forests have lost their lower limbs as these limbs get shaded by the canopy above. The width of a tree at its base will be a fraction of its width at its crown. In cultivation, though, we often like being able to enjoy the foliage closer to the ground, so we create an artificial environment (i.e. without a bunch of competing plants) where we permit the lower growth to flourish.

Trimming the lateral growth on a Yoshino will encourage denser growth closer to the trunk. It's not a bad strategy if you intend to use your tree as a privacy screen. I'm not actually sure how that would affect the ultimate width, though, especially given the above base vs. crown dichotomy.

I measured the width of the foliage on my species Cryptomeria by looking up and pacing it off. 18ft. As you can see, the lower branches have been cut off at the trunk. The upper branches were never trimmed.

Wow! Thats very narrow. So your cryptomeria is around 35 years old and is standing 50 feet tall 18 feet wide. Thats exactly what I want. I've always planned on cutting off the lower branches of all my conifer trees probably at least up to 10-15 feet because I want it to look like forest trees. Only problem is it might be susceptible to deer rutting more but if it means I get more space in my garden I might just do it. Now I'm wondering, where can I buy a species cryptomeria? I can't find them anywhere nowhere online. Every cryptomeria in the market has a cultivar to it

Most 'Elegans' and similar selections - no matter how large - I see here have a curved trunk lower down, as though having been bent or pushed over at one point. An 'Elegans' I planted on Camano Island in the 80's is no longer there, off the top of my head I believe it split apart under a snow load. But maybe it froze instead - as this cultivar apparently often does this far north*.

Driving down 101 to northern coastal California is a good way to see 'Elegans' (and a similar cultivar) - along with golden Monterey cypresses - in a favorable climate. There these trees become repeatedly seen roadside features, when passing through inhabited sections. It's to be expected of course that fixed juveniles such as 'Elegans' might not be as resilient as more normal forms that soon go on to produce adult foliages and stem growth.

Otherwise any conifer that grows rapidly may have been allowed to become root-bound during production, resulting in falling or leaning over after planting out. Especially something as vigorous and heavy topped as Leyland cypress.

Then there is the problem of terribly root-bound stocks being grafted upon, something that is universally evident among finished specimens presented at local retail outlets...

Most asking about plants are not experimenters or collectors, want kinds chosen to be safe choices. Consistent with this Heruga has made it clear from the start they are after assurances of a predictable outcome.

*For whatever specific reason one year the more coppery than usual winter color doesn't go away in spring and the specimen never starts growing again. I have seen this happen to multiple examples

This variety of Cryptomeria is called 'Jin Dai'. mine are approximately 35 years old. This one is about 12 ft. tall, (4 meters) never been topped, and has been pruned to look like a large tree. This type of pruning is called Niwaki, sort of like giant bonsai. You can get a natural look, but at a smaller scale if space is limited. I like them in a rock garden.

I have enough Cryptomeria to start a separate thread.

Nice tree. So can you also do niwaki pruning on a species cryptomeria? Also where can I buy species cryptomeria trees? Every cryptomeria in the market now has a cultivar and I just can't find the original anywhere

I bought that tree a long time a go and have no idea where one can be purchased now. Sure, you can do Niwaki on the species, but it would be a lot of almost constant pruning. I'm behind on the C. j 'Jin Dais' I have now and they are a lot slower. Maybe 'Black Dragon' would work for you?

Thanks, Embo. 'Jindai-sug'i. I will remember it. :-)