Let me answer Pam's questions.

I'm on my way. My project is much different because I'm creating a garden, I'm still a gardener in the end. I do plan to begin a nursery business though as a grafter. Only enough so that I fill what I'm working on currently, this 12 x 24 hoophouse:
{{gwi:305043}}

Here's my greenhouse (8 x 16):
{{gwi:305042}}

Dax

Dax: I'm glad you are moving along on your projects. It's great to make plans and implement them! Several people have large ongoing projects - you (IL), Spruce (VA & WV), Tom (WI), John (MO), lpptz5b (whom I don't know yet), and me (VA). I know there are others. I remember a woman from NY who wrote about how she tackled the job every year. She had someone care for her kids for a week while she planted 1,000 seedlings.

When I started, I was ignorant and I'll never have the knowledge and expertise of many people on this forum. Despite that (or because of it), I'm learning so much from my reforestation project. Lesson #1: don't give up on seedlings. I was working in the field this afternoon and found several oak and dogwood seedlings leafing out NOW - in mid-August. I had given up on them but left them (and their flags) in the ground, planning to replace them.

Bottom line: We're learning and having fun (most of the time).

Take care,
Pam

Well, I guess I am posting this just to get some sympathy. We have not had any rain here now for 24 days, and the forecast from the US Weather Service shows no, not even a 10% chance, of rain for at least the next 7 days. Now it will be a real struggle to keep all the trees I planted this spring alive--something close to 400. And many of the trees I planted two and three years ago are showing signs of stress--yellowing and dropping of the leaves produced this spring--So I need to water those also. Can someone do a rain dance for me?

--Spruce

Spruceman,

In my dealings with conifer gardening and anything else that depends upon water for survival I have no control or the ability to produce that vital product.

Fortunately my city water works can supply what mother nature will not at the time of need. Not a cheap alternative but worth every penny to insure survival of my plants.

We all take it on the chin once in a while. That's just the nature of things. Hopefully you are able to carry/truck water to your prise processions till rain comes your way.

Keep us posted. You have my sympathy.

Dave

Spruce

You have my heartfelt sympathy. You've worked very hard for an outstanding cause and to get no help from Ma Nature is just plain hard to deal with.

We ourselves are just now getting into a typical hot, dry spell up here. This is the third weekend in a row that I've not been able to go up to my land, but I've got to think things are getting pretty dry. A line of storms developed right along the Wisconsin/Upper Michigan border yesterday. Radar estimates show quite a few spots received an inch of rain, but, all a little too far north to hit where my land is. Today, not a radar echo to be found, despite the formation of a lot of cumulus clouds.

Still, I'm either hopeful, optimistic, or just plain foolish, in believing my little guys will make it through. Next weekend, I'm going to get up there if at all possible. Only Thursday night for band gigs that weekend, so that'll free me up some.

My rain dance has an uneven record of effectiveness, but I'm doing one for you, and me anyway;^)

+oM

Spruce,

I've called the almighty on your behalf. 877 - date - yes.

Dax

Tom and Dax:

You guys are marvels--results already!! This morning I checked the 7 day and it had no chance of rain at all. They just posted a revised forecast and I see, starting Friday and going through Sunday, a 40% chance for three consecutive days. And, that's not all, the new 6 to 10 outlook is for a moderate chance of above normal rain for the period. Maybe one more dance and call to "upstairs" will cinch the deal.

In the meantime I will keep on watering. Each "round" is 400 one gallon jugs--I've done 6 rounds so far this year, so that is well over 2,000. I will have another round done before Friday--I never postpone watering assuming any rain will come. If it rains, that just adds extra. Some larger trees I can put the sprinkler on.

The problem when it is so dry is that the gallon I put on each of the small trees (larger ones get up to 8 or 10) is soaked away very fast because the soil is so dry. And where the ground has dryness cracks, the water is sucked away even faster. I try to give each tree one gallon a week, but sometimes I am a day or two late.

Well, thanks--keep up the good work!

--Spruce

Spruce: I'm so sorry to hear you are still dealing with this problem - lugging 600 gallons of water each time in the heat of summer. Each round must take hours. I'll do a rain dance for sure.

Our situation in this part of the Bay is similar - had 1.5 inch of rain in the first week of July, then nothing until Aug. 14 (1.3"). In early July, we installed a system so I could water the seedlings. But the wells are shallow (10 feet) and collect surface /rain water. Since we had no rain, the wells went dry.

I hope you'll get a reprieve from T.S. Faye. The forecasters have her going through Bristol but she's too far out to predict her track with any accuracy. Please keep us posted.

Take care,
Pam

Hello, Pam

I live in E Central WI about 10-12 miles from the lake michigan shore.
I'm 48 and found growing trees and watching them grow fascinating at about 12yrs old.
The last few yrs I'm on a kick of growing trees that get tall.
I try to read as much as I can on the subject of trees,but admit I'm no expert.

lp

Oops, the rain chance I was so happy about yesterday has been taken out of the forecast. Next chance in the forecast is 30% next week Monday. Hot, dry winds today. I watered for about 8 hours, pre-emptively watering some prized trees before stress appears--with the next 8 days dry, it will be several days over a month since the last rain. On days like this it seems impossible that it will ever rain again--but it will. Pam: we are lucky, we have a very powerful well, 60 gallons per minute and never gone dry. So all I need is a little persistence and I will get through this dry spell.

--Spruce

Hang in there, Spruce. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems I remember you writing that you've done minimal watering at your W. Maryland acreage.

+oM

Hello,Spruceman

If it's any consoleation,I know how you feel but these trees are tougher than we give them credit,
I mentioned in another post that I planted 30 acres in the spring of 1989 the secound year of drought in our area.
1988 was one of the worst years,followed by 89 that was'nt much better.If I remember right we had about 1/2in a week after planting then nothing until mid july.As you can imagine it's impossible to water that many trees,after the my lawn looked like straw with next to no green I thought it would never rain and I'd have to replant all those trees again.After a while I did'nt even walk the feilds dreading the sight I'd find, but the next spring I was surprised to see most of the trees made it.
If you watered a couple times I think they will be OK.

lp

Yes, you guys are right, most of the trees I planted will survive even if I don't get them watered, especially the larger Norway spruce trees whose roots I was able to get deep, usually into the "B" soil horizon. Most of the oaks and especially the larch had small, and sometimes poorly structured root systems, so I would worry about those.

Anyway, with these trees, including the Norway spruce, how they get established the first year is critical. If they get a strong start with adequate water, they will be about two years ahead of those that end the first year really weak. Tom: What you want to see is some thinkning of the leader with lots of good sized buds forming. If you see that you are golden. About 40% of mine look like that. Another 40% look good, but without much thickening of the leader and without the large buds. 20% are in plain poor condition, almost all of these being the smaller ones whose roots I couldn't get deep.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words--I am coming down the summer's "home stretch," so to speak, so I will press on and see if I can't get these trees so strong they will really take off next spring.

--Spruce

Cross your fingers, Spruceman -- the rain from the Florida tropical storm might creep northward up the Appalachian mnts next week, after loitering along the Gulf coast.

I measured over 5.5" rain for July (32" since Jan 1), but it has shut off since then.

Spruce: I know you are worried but I am confident that your trees will be fine. Tom and lp have lifetimes of knowledge and experience - and they think so too. I look forward to a status report next spring. ~ Pam

Yes, Pam, things will be fine. As for the little trees I planted this spring--almost 400--I can get a gallon to each one every four days if I have to. It is not that hard, really. I have a Suburban, and I got a shallow kind of tray to fit in the back. I can put 40 gallon jugs on it and fill them right there--I spill some, but the tray holds it, and it is easy to drain it. Then on another smaller tray on one side I have 18 more gallons. I remove those to fill them, but that's OK. If I had to I could make more room. Six trips and I have the little ones all done. I am watering other larger trees and giving them 4 to 8 galons each or more, but they are not in dire straits yet. Then I have several hundred feet of hose for those I really want to soak. My green giants are pretty well established now, but they have been growing well this year and I gave them a good soaking to see if I could get them to grow 4 feet again this year.

The only problem, really, is I am getting a bit tired of this. I have other things I want to do.

The rain is funny. A friend who lives in downtown Winchester stopped by yesterday, and he said that where he was there was one rain last week that for about 20 minutes was as heavy as he has ever seen. Then another day last week we watched a storm pass out to our west that looked beautiful--I later heard that some places got 3 inches. Beng: I thought maybe that one hit were you are. Yes, we need some tropical moisture to get up here. Anyway, little chance of rain in the forecast yet--30% next Monday, then another 30% next Wednesday. The 6 to 10 day outlook has a good chance of rain along the coast, but not much chance inland where I am.

Another interesting thing is watching the reaction of my trees to dry spells as they get established. We get a dry spell almost every year here. I planted a red maple out back 7 years ago. Even last year during a dry spell it showed a lot of stress. So far this year it is OK and I have not had to water it. I planted a "London" plane tree 6 years ago. Every year during dry spells a lot of its leaves turned yellow and fell--not this year. Other trees are still trying to get established to be drought resistant. A ginkgo I planted 4 years ago still suffers during the least bit of dry weather--I have thought about giving up on it, but sooner or later it will probably get established so it can stand these dry spells.

Overall, trees do grow here OK--not great, and mostly they are smaller than in places to the east and the west that get more rain, but trees here do eventually get established and do well. I just have to be patient and give them a little help once in a while.

But Norway spruce trees are among the fastest to get established. It will take a really severe drought next year to damage those I planted this year and am now watering so carefully.

--Spruce

Spruceman, it still looks promising for rain from the tropical system next week. The forecast can change, of course. Below is a 10-day model forecast (browser needs Java for it to work). It's not very reliable after about 5 days, tho.

My (Dunkeld) hybrid larch "only" grew alittle over 3' this yr -- I've cut back on its watering. It's nearly 15' tall planted spring 2004.

More about our drought. One side effect of the dry spell we are in here, or so I guess, is that there is a rapidly increasing amount of animal damage to my little spruce trees. I suspect rabbits and/or groundhogs. The stems about 6 inches up are being gnawed and girdled, and in some cases bitten completely off, but not cleanly--kind of a "mashing" through. I am guessing that because everything is so dry that the normal plant foods these animals like to eat are either dried up completely, or if still green, less juicy and tasty. There is still a lot of green around, but most of it is the deeper rooted grasses, such as orchard grass, things like milkweed, which nothing seems to like to eat, and another prickly kind of plant I dont know the name of. There is still some red clover that is green, but much, if not most of it is brown, and what it still green is wilted.

Usually this kind of damage to NS seedlings happens early in the spring soon after planting. This has caught me by surprise, and at this point the losses are mounting and becoming serious. So, are there any good products I can put on these little trees to discourage this nibbling? I have heard of some general rodent repellents, such as "Ro-Pel" or something. How good are they?

P.S. The forecast has pushed back the first chance of any rain until next Thursday--that will make 35 days. I have seen much worse droughts, but 35 days without any significant rain (we had one .1 rain and another .05 since August 23) is about as long as I can remember. But we did have three rains in the two days before the 23rd totaling 2.6 inches, which has kept things from being really bad for trees and other plant-life in general.

--Spruce

Hi Spruce,

I use this product with great success.

Dave

Spruce,

I've not found anything that is guaranteed to work against either rabbits or groundhogs (woodchucks). There are plenty of "rabbit repellents" on the market but if animals get hungry enough they will still nibble on whatever they can find, with or without repellent. We have both in our yard and I've found nothing that will completely stop them. Lucky for us they haven't found or bothered our small firs and pines growing in containers... yet.

Also, I can relate to what you are going through. We've had essentially drought conditions in our area (southwest Michigan) as well. All lawns in our area are brown and crunchy. We've had virtually no measurable rain at all in August and very little in July. Most of the big storms have either drifted north or south of us or broken up over Lake Michigan before they reach us. We had a few sprinkles this morning but so far nothing significant.

Hopefully we both get some rain soon!

Thanks

Dave

You folks actually get *rain* during the summer??? !O_O!
Amazing! ;)

Josh

Something that seems to work somewhat w/deer (maybe other critters?) is to mix at the rate of 1 egg w/1 gal water & apply w/a sprayer. It's cheap & does leave a lingering, stinky smell on the foliage.

Dave:

Michigan can get hit by droughts as bad as anyone. I was a student at MSU from '58 until '64, and it was somewhere near 1962 that we had a drought that started in mid-summer and lasted through the fall. Everything was brown and lots of trees died. There was another one while I was there that started in early summer and lasted until sometime in late August. One of the most beautiful rains I have ever seen ended that one--long, moderately hard, steady, starting in mid-afternoon and lasting through most of the night. I can still call up vivid images of that rainstorm. Longfellow has a poem titled something like, "Rain," that is a beautiful description of a drought ending rain in New England.

--Spruce

Well, you can add my area to the list of places that are too dry at present. A front came through last night.........dry;^( Now, I see the same front is producing a line of heavy storms across the lake in N. Michigan.

Took a gander at my seedlings yesterday-Friday- and though they seem to be fairing okay, some of the tops have been bitten off! Just as you described, Spruce. Odd thing is, there's plenty of alfalfa all around them to be eaten, but something had to nibble on the spruces. I know NS is preeminently able to form a new leader, but still, a disappointment. The few Green Giants, which have cages around them, are looking quite good and seem to have really taken a hold. The three Dawn redwoods likewise are caged and have gotten well-established. For those, I'm waiting to see what winter does to them.

Interesting, and quite gratifying, is the condition of the preexisting trees in the woods. I walked down there and hiked around. The "cedar", Thuja o., are just as green and healthy as can be. Likewise, the white pines and for that matter, all the broadleaved stuff as well. A month or so back, armed only with a folding pruning saw, I had cut down a bunch of aspen that were in direct competition with some of the Thujas. There was one larger one which I didn't want to cut down with such a tiny saw, so I girdled it. That tree hasn't died yet-still fully leafed out!

Anyway, after a marvelous wet beginning to this growing season, we are DRY now.

+oM

When you guys go nearly 2 summers with 100+ heat and alomst zero rain I'll feel sorry for you.... That is what happened in 06 and 07 for me. I probably lost a few years off my life worrying about the lack of rain. I would watch radar of all the storms coming in, then go out on the deck to watch the rain come down only to have the storms suddenly fall apart. The local weatherman frequently stated there seemed to be a bubble over our area where all storms would go north/south or quit when they got to us. Last year I think I mowed our lawn only once all summer.

It's impossible not to worry. However, seeing how the trees are doing after 2 straight yrs of serious drought, I would reassure you most will make it and do fine. Looking back, I wish I wouldn't have wasted so much time worrying and contantly watching the weather. Easier said than done. For me, there was no option other than to watch and worry. Replanting those seedlings that were lost was cheap and more feasible than watering. If it reassures you, I ended up losing a lot less seedlings than I thought I would. There are some positives to trees being water stressed, but the exact amount of stress where you begin to lose the benefits is difficult to identify. Similar to a lawn where they recommend a period of time between waterings to help promote deeper root growth. I've discuseed before and feel there should be more scientific studies on this particular subject.

In any case, hope the rains comes - just don't sweat it too much.

John

John:

When it comes to watching for rain and seeing it go north, or south, or just poop out, we must actually be two halves of the same person. Established trees of all species native to an area have very strong drought resistance in that area. Young transplanted trees are vulnerable, so I would not want to say anything that could encourage anyone to ignore very dry conditions. Water!!

As for the benefits of some water stress--mostly I think it is a negative, but it depends on how much, of course. The trees that I water, and I am not talking about my little seedlings I planted this year, I water only after things get really dry, and then I really soak them deep, and then don't water for about two weeks. Keeping trees constantly wet, or giving them only shallow watering, is not good. That wont encourage good, deep root growth.

With my little seedlings--I think it is best to keep them watered the first year. Any benefits that may come from letting them dry out to any serious degree will be greater in future years after the trees have some strength--they can develop drought tolerance just a bit later when they are at least partially established.

The watering I am doing is also helping some of the weaker trees recover. Some of my smaller seedlings when they grew this spring, had poor shoot extension and very short needles. Now the fresh flushes of growth, which are not very long, have needles of more normal length. And those shoot ends that have not flushed with new growth have nice buds forming. Without the watering I have been doing, I think many of these would have died, or certainly would be very week and not develop good buds for next year's growth. But I have a good number of seedlings that in spite of my watering, are still in poor condition.

Tom:

The tops of my little spruce trees have been bitten off in two different ways. Both are a serious problem, but one, the one I described recently here, is in practical terms fatal. The whole top half of some relatively small seedlings--20" or so--has been lost. There is very little foliage below that point. If totally protected from now on they would recover, but it would take at least three years to get back to where they were. These seedlings are, in practical terms, destroyed. The other kind of nibbling of tops is from deer. Just the top half or so of the leader shoot is gone. This is not good, but they are set back no more than a year, if that.

As for your girdling of the aspen tree and its still showing no signs of death. The first time I thinned my 223 acre timberland I did it by girdling the trees I wanted removed. I dont think I am boasting if I say that probably no one in the whole wide world knows as much about this business as I do. If you intend to do any substantial thinning by girdling trees, let me know. I can give you some pointers that can spare you some confusion and/or real grief.

OK, as for your aspen. Aspen trees growing in a grove are almost always growing from one root system. Aspen reproduction is probably 98% from sprouts from roots of nearby trees. So that means that if you girdle one tree, disrupting the flow of nutrients from the crown of the tree to the roots, the tree can get those nutrients from the neighboring trees. Eventually the tree will die in spite of that "assistance" from its neighbors, but it can take much longer. I have seen girdled beech trees grafted to healthy neighboring trees live for at least 20 years.

It also depends on how the trees are girdled. When I did my first TSI on my 223 acres I did it with an axe and simply severed the cambium layer. But other methods can produce quicker death. If you strip a very wide band of the bark, some kinds of trees will die quicker. If you use a chainsaw to cut a deep notch all around, death is quicker also. But how fast a tree dies also depends of the thickness of the sapwood. Oak and cherry trees that tend to have a narrower band of sapwood, will usually die in two months or less. If you are careful to sever all the sapwood, the tree will start to wilt in a few days. A beech or maple tree with its very thick band of sapwood, and not grafted to any neighboring tree, may take two, maybe even three years to die.

Another consideration is what happens after the tree dies. The notching method, even the shallow but narrow girdling with an axe, can result, with some kinds of trees, such as red maple, in the whole tree breaking off at the girdling point three or four years later, very possibly damaging just those trees you were trying to favor. I know some girdling methods that can reduce this risk. If a tree you are girdling has a fork up above in its trunk, the possibilities for damage when it falls are much, much greater. Other kinds of trees, especially black cherry, and to a lesser degree, oaks, can stand dead for 20 years or more, providing a hazard of falling limbs for many, many years, or being dangerous obstacles for a future timber harvest. Well, more later, if you wish.

I assume you know how to use a chainsaw? Really a "must" tool for any timberland owner. If you want to get a good one, let me know. I know some of the factors you need to consider when deciding what you might want to get, and can make some recommendations. For a good TSI thinning job, felling the trees is best. If that involves too much work, girdling, using in some cases some special methods, will get the job done just fine.

--Spruce

Thanks John and Spruce for the continuing discussion.

Last things first: Yes, I've done a great deal of chainsaw work. Don't tell anybody, but I borrow saws from work when I need 'em. We go with all Stihl, ranging from little .026 climbing saws up to monsters with 48 inch bars for dropping stubs. I like to do serious thinning/dead branch removal.....etc. in the winter. The manner in which I did things on the referenced trip was simple expediancy-it is what I had along with me. In the buggy, humid summer days, I don't like to get into saw work too much if it is stuff I can do in cool weather anyway.

Re: girdling. Yes, I know that aspen are typically clones from a single root system. My goal here is not eradication, just a setback sufficient to allow my favored trees to keep growing and not get too hindered. I know that I will have to keep at this. Already, some of the smaller stems which I cut to the ground have produced new sprouts at the base. This was expected. It's kinda like the wild grape I'm trying to keep down. I'll never kill it all off, but if I can just keep it out of my trees, that is sufficient. BTW, intermixed with the aspen are a number of paper birch. These will be left to develop.

John, it is some of your writings on the tolerance to dry conditions on your spread that have helped give me confidence with my own. And it is true, we are not in anything like the drought you describe. My biggest concern is that we too had terrible drought conditions the past two summers. I feel we need some long, solid spells of favorable (Wet) weather in order to get things somewhat back to "normal". Hence, any return to dryness alarms me. And you, Spruce and I actually comprise one person split in thirds when it comes to watching radar and seeing storms split/ weaken/what have you. I can't tell you how many times I've been frustrated by this very thing!

+oM

Tom, and maybe mostly anyone else interested. Yes, I am mostly a Stihl guy also. I have the 026, a remarkable saw for its size. I think it is worth the extra money, and it is a lot extra over the comparably sized 025, for this "professional grade" model. Then I use the 036, a mid-sized saw that can serve for just about any purpose. It is also a member of their "professional grade" line. And for my larger saw I use the 044. I wish I could handle the 046, but considering all the carrying of the saw I have to do through the woods, and occasionally doing cutting over my head, it is a bit too much. All of these saws have new models that now have the designation "MS" instead of the 0 prefix.

But if any of you attend old farm sales and see an old Homelite 360 come up for sale, you can get a very good saw for probably under $50. Textron, the maker of the Homelite saws, has been taken over by John Deere, and although they offer their own newer models now, they still service and sell parts for the old Homelite 360. I still use my old 360 a lot.

Some people really like the Husquevarna saws, but for me, when I am not wearing hearing protection, the intense high-pitched noise is just too much. Another reason I like Stihl is there are probably more places that service them than any other saw.

Another hint--if in doubt, get the larger saw. They are smoother and easier to operate--maybe it is counter intuitive, but doing a big job, and even a small job, with a smaller saw requires more effort. Maybe I have too many saws, and I usually use one a size larger than I need to, but at my age and after a lifetime of hard work, I will spend the extra money to make life a bit easier and more enjoyable. And these professional grade saws that are so expensive--I will never use any of them to wear one out, so what's the point? Well, I find them just a bit easier to use.

And very important--nothing beats a sharp chain. And if you can't keep one really sharp yourself--it takes practice--it is no shame to have someone sharpen one for you. Best done by hand also, I think. If I hit a rock, I give it to my saw man to sharpen for me--usually I can't get a damaged chain back to a really good edge.

--Spruce

Well it seems that many of us either have far too much rain (Florida at the moment) or far too little rain. The good news is that we finally received some rain on Friday here in SW Michigan. Bad news is that it was only about 1/4 inch, hardly enough to do any good, and our temps this weekend were at or near 90F once again. Our lawn still crunches when we walk on it.

More bad news. One of our small (3ft tall) Colorado spruces looks like it's died, probably from lack of water. It's mostly yellow now with a bit of brown on it. The tree is on the very edge of our property line, too far away from any sources of watering. We planted about 50 small trees, mostly a mixture of Colorado, white, and Serbian spruces as a windbreak along our property line several years ago. They are not mulched (a cardinal sin) so the soil gets very dry and subjected to significant winds, further drying things out. Interesting part is that this is the third Colorado spruce that's died from drought on the property line, but the other species (Serbian and white) have had no problems. I'm sure they all need water badly but so far only the Colorado spruces have had problems with drought.

Our ornamental spruces, pines and firs, the ones that we mulched and do water regularly are doing just fine.

Several garden centers are having their "end of summer" sales now so I'll probably pick up a Black Hills spruce to replace the Colroado. I believe the Black Hills variety are a bit hardier than even the typical white spruce.

Hopefully everyon who needs rain will get some soon!

Thanks

Dave

Dave:

Interesting about your Colorado spruce--sorry. I have been very interested in the relative drought resistance of various trees, especially the spruces. I was under the impression that Colorado spruce would have some high drought resistance, but what happened to yours confirms some suspicions I have had that I have been wrong. Of course a tree planted just three years ago is often not fully established, and maybe these Colorado spruces take just a bit longer than a Norway spruce, which seems to me to have outstanding drought resistance. Anyway, during bad dry spells I water trees in the ground for three years or less, and I also water the really small ones--under four feet--regardless of how long ago I planted them. And then I keep a careful eye on any other trees that may show signs of stress.

Yeah, a quarter of an inch on top of a drought does almost nothing to help. That front is coming through here now and we are not expecting much rain, even if we are lucky enough to be under one of the "isolated" showers, end even then the rain is not supposed to be significant. We have another relatively small chance later in the week--40%. Nothing in the forecast yet about what the potential is for some really good rain. I think this later chance of rain is from some last weak remnants of Florida's tropical storm. Unfortunately, they won't get up to your area.

--Spruce

Spruce:

Do you consider Norways to be more drought tolerant than white or Black Hills spruces? I know NS would grow much faster than either of the others.

Yes I agree that third year trees are not necessarily fully established, especially when they are not watered on a regular basis. Because of where these trees are located my wife and I would have to drive our truck out to the property line area and hand carry 5-gallon buckets of water out to each of them. If these were highy-prized specimen trees or cultivars then we'd certainly mulch them and water them regularly. However, they are "conservation grade" species trees so it would involve a lot of manual labor.

As you say, the interesting thing is that the white and Serbian spruces are growing in the same area with the same conditions and we've not lost one of them.

We do have some larger Norways on the property as well, but they are much older and about 30 feet tall, planted by the former property owners. They could also use water for sure but so far are showing no severe drought symptoms.

So on our property it appears that among our spruces the Colorados are the least drought tolerant.

BTW, no rain in the forecast until at least Thursday, then it's only a slight chance.

Thanks

Dave

Dave

Are you anywhere near the big sand dunes down there? We climbed up some of them on a blistering hot day, and let me tell you, that sand was HOT! Big huge super-cold Lake Michigan right there, and all this burning hot sand. Strange but very beautiful country.

Yeah, a quarter inch of rain when your so dry is almost a slap in the face! We too are only in a moderate category for rain chance by weeks end.

We were at Cocoa Beach, FL one time. Hard to picture that area after the 33 inches, or whatever they ended up with, of rain. One thing about much, if not most, of FL, the soil is very porous, so at least, drainage will be quick.

My feeling about Colorado spruce is that they are a tree that pretty much needs moist soil. They get in trouble here in the Midwest and East not due to excessive soil moisture, but rather, too much atmospheric moisture (Humidity), thus setting the stage for rhizosphaera needlecast disease, and cytospora canker, which is slowly fatal as a rule.

Because of this trees' need for adequate soil moisture, I sure hate to see all the dumb plantings of them atop big berms around shopping centers and such. From a design standpoint, it is real dumb too.

+oM

A good soaking is forecast. Remnants of the recent tropical storm that hit Florida. When I went out to water this afternoon the forecast said a 40% chance of a tenth to a quarter of an inch. I watered all day, got 200 gallons poured on my little spruce trees. Came in, got the updated forecast, and the highlights are: 80% chance for up to 1/2 to 3/4ths inch tomorrow, 70% chance of up to 1 to 2 inches tomorrow night, 70% chance for 1 to 2 inches Thursday, and then a 50% chance for a bit more Thursday night.

Ah, I need a rest. But I noticed today how big the buds are getting, especially on my blue spruce seedlings--most have been slowly looking better. And the leaders are getting thicker. I should get good growth next year. And by then they should not need such regular watering!!

--Spruce

Tom,

Yes there are sand dunes several places near the lake. One place is about 30 miles away from us, the other big ones are mostly up north.

Checked out the weather and only a slight (30%) chance of rain on Thursday. Other than that, dry and clear. Sounds good, but for parched conifers not so good. As I mentioned in other threads, everything we water and mulch is doing fine this year. Trees like the Colorado that we can't water are having a rough time.

I visited a local farm market that had all their remaining stock on sale for 50% off regular prices. They have a farily small collection of conifers left, but most of the major local species (Norway, white, Serbian and Colorado spruces, white and Austrian pines, hemlock, plus a few Frasier and Caanan firs). I'll pick out something to replace the Colorado later this week.

Question: has anyone tried those "water retention soil crystals" that supposedly absorb water and then release it later on? I saw some of those and wondered if it would be of any benefit to try them. maybe just a gimmick but thought I'd ask anyway.

Thanks

Dave

"My feeling about Colorado spruce is that they are a tree that pretty much needs moist soil. They get in trouble here in the Midwest and East not due to excessive soil moisture, but rather, too much atmospheric moisture (Humidity), thus setting the stage for rhizosphaera needlecast disease, and cytospora canker, which is slowly fatal as a rule".

I don't totally agree. Here in Kansas City the humidity belt in the Midwest spruce do quite well. They all survive a spell of 70% humidity and temps in the 90's usually lasting through the months of July and August.

It's the Firs that have trouble here and usually succumb to that environment in less then two years.

I have two Firs growing that Dax sent me this year. Grafted on a different under stock, I don't know what species, and doing quite well.

I have a feeling we are on to something. If we get through next year I know we are.

Watering every day here as the rain has shut off.

Dave

Katskan Dave: I used polymer crystals for containerized plantings of herbaceous material in my job, for a few years beginning around 1990. I could never tell if they were doing any good, and as they were very expensive, I just dropped them eventually. What finally turned me off them was when a noted horticulture professor at UW-Madison warned of the danger they might harbor soil pathogens in some new, weird way. Not sure that was true either, but in any case, I never once felt I was able to skip a watering because of this stuff in the soil. They also looked really terrible when the ones that were inevitably at the soil surface would swell up upon being watered/rained on. Not a good look! Just my opinion, but I wouldn't mess with 'em.

Other Dave: I agree that many fir are also troubled by high humidity coupled with high temps, but that does not negate what I've said about Picea pungens, and I still definitely stand by that.

+oM

Unconfirmed reports of someone running around and jumping yelling hey or Faye or something. He was waving an empty gallon jug around. This was a few miles north of Winchester VA. Sprucey?

I live in Spruceman's neighborhood. A rain makes me more silly than usual. It probably wasn't Spruce.Hank

Yeah, Hank, thats was me. But maybe there are a lot of us running around all excited. After the forecasts went back and forth about the rain, we finally got 1.75 inches. After 35 dry days I cant say this was a total soaker, but since the drought was not really severe in terms of the accumulated moisture deficit--remember I said that we had 2.6 inches the two days before this dry spell started--this rain essentially ends the problem for now. I am putting all my jugs away. Now I will get back to fencing and otherwise protecting some more of them from the coming buck-rub season.

--Spruce

Well, it's official-we're drier than a fart here now. Before work yesterday morning, I looked at radar. There was a large, thick line of storms from top to bottom of the state. But in the time spanned by that radar loop, it was apparent that the storms were weakening. By the time they got to where I live, we ended up with just a little sprinkle. Up by my land, maybe a quarter inch of rain. Bummer. There is no rain in sight at this point, and temps are hanging right in the mid-eighties F.

Well, the old expression that everyone seems to be using again applies here.....it is what it is. Though I didn't want to do this, I think I'm going to have to water.

+oM

Measured 2.13" rain here -- mostly just light, steady rain for many hrs. Localized spots just SW of Cumberland, MD showed ~4" on the accumulated-rain radar image, but that's not very accurate. My border stream showed no water-level change, so all of it was absorbed.

Long-range model forecast shows TS Hannah going up the Atlantic coast next week, but that conflicts w/other forecasts I've seen, so hard to say.

Tom:

OK, maybe you will have to water. Some pointers that may help. Do you have some kind of SUV? I have a Suburban, so I am lucky. I have been watering about 400 new trees and some that I planted in prior years, If I use my methods and had just 100 or so--"piece of cake." I got a shallow rubber-like or flexible plastic tray that fits in the back. I can line up 40 jugs on this and can re-fill them right there and drain off the spillage out the back of the tray by pressing down its lip. I have another tray in the side that holds another 18. I drive close to me trees and carry them by twos or threes to the trees. For 90% of them I created a nice berm to hold the water, so I can pour it out fast. 100 trees, if they are in rows close toghether, maybe 2 or 2 1/2 hours. With kids helping, much less. No problem!

Good luck. If you water them and keep up their strength, they will get established fast. If you see good buds form and the thick leader develop, you are home free, and one good watering now could do the trick. If the buds are really small and the leaders don't show any thickening, you should water more regurlarly until fall, if needed.

--Spruce

Spruce: I'm so glad to hear that you got some rain, if not a great deal. We only got 0.2 inches so are still status quo.

When I drove to Richmond this week, most of the trees - hardwood and pines - looked awful. Many tulip trees have dropped their leaves, nearly everything is brown. The situation must be better down here, even though we have had less rain than Richmond. I'm at a loss to explain this. Maybe because Richmond is inland and temps are higher in summer, the impact of the drought was more severe. Or maybe because we are on the Bay, the trees benefit from that.

Tom: When do temps start to drop in your area? When the air temps get cooler, that should reduce the stress. If you can get some folks together and water well once, that may be sufficient.

Pam:

Yes, the cooler temps/on-shore breezes can help. Also, the soils may be different. The 6 to 10 day forecast has a very high probability of above normal rain in your area, You unedestand this forecast--the period starting 6 days from now extending to 10 days from now. Maybe the remnants of Hannah and/or Gustav.

--Spruce

Thanks, Spruce. Yes, I understand the forecast is positive. I hope we will both get much-needed rain within the next week or so. I'm fortunate to have a backup source of water. The wells are shallow and go dry quickly but they recover within a few hours (only to go dry again) - so patience and persistence is needed.

Next spring, I hope you'll let us know how things turned out with your trees. I bet your watering turned the tide.

Tonight, I'm thinking about forum members who may take a hit from Gustav, just as they are beginning to recover from Katrina.

Take care,
Pam

Pam et all, I discussed my watering in Ken's thread so I won't recount here. Just want to mention per your question, there WAS at one time, a pretty reliable cooldown here that typically started in the second half of August. I just don't think these patterns are in effect anymore. We seem to stay warmer much later, into September and even October some years. I wish this weren't so, but what you gonna do?

I've knocked my planting number for next Spring back to 750 total. The nursery I wish to work with-Itasca Greenhouse-will not have marketable concolor fir 'til Fall of '09, so I'm just going to take them off the list for now. Having seen how long it takes for me to do all the planting and aftercare, I don't want to overextend things to the point where quality is being compromised too much. So it will be 250 NS, 250 ponderosa pine, and 250 hybrid larch.

Incidentally, Itasca has quoted me very good prices for this order, basically the thousand rate for each species. Gotta like that;^)

+oM

Hi Tom:

I think you are wise to cut back your list a bit. Taking care of the trees you planted this year gave you a sense of the time involved in aftercare, even without prolonged dry spells. You did get a good price from Itasca. I imagine commercial nurseries have taken a hit with the economic downturn and may be more willing to negotiate. I haven't made a plan for next year yet. I'll probably plant another 500 seedlings and replace trees that didn't survive. I'm still planning a grove of NS but need to clear land before I can go forward on that project.

Do you think a pre-emergent herbicide would help in your situation?

I ask because the weeds nearly did me in this year, even though I used glyphosate before and after. The forester offered a few ounces of OUST for next year. He recommended broadcast spraying instead of spraying in swaths. With swaths, vines, weeds and fast growing trees encroach very fast.

I hope you had a good, productive day. I enjoy reading your posts - you are so enthusiastic about your land.

Tom:

With the Norway spruce, you can do minimal weeding and they will be fine. The key is just to make sure they are not shaded to any substantial degree for more than a very few days, if at all. Weeds growing right next to them don't seem to me to affect them--unless, of course, it is an issue of competing for inadequate water (but yes, pull the dandelions out).

I have been weeding my trees by hand--I have weeded maybe 4 times, usually when I am watering also, which saves time. To quickly pull just the potentially shading weeds away from each tree takes about 10 or maybe 15 seconds per tree. I wear good tough gripping gloves!

Yeah, cut back to what you can manage. You will enjoy your work, won't have any worries about falling behind, and your trees will get a better start. You are no further ahead if you plant more than you can plant properly, and more than you can tend to, and then have them all get a slow start and/or have to replant.

And it would be good to have time to build the berm I refer to in the other topic about drought--an extra couple of minutes per tree. You never know when you will have another dry year.

--Spruce

2-5" possible rain for Wed. & Thurs. I'm doing my raindance after this. A cigarette I'll light because they're sparkly and stuff. Temps to be 69 both days which means the leaves to start turning sometime soon and the conifer cones in sync to be collected.

Have a wonderful week, I'll be thinking good thoughts here on the farm. After all, the plants are my key to future success! Take care of your trees and a little bit of luck to you all.

Lat-e

Dax

Pam and Spruce

Thanks for the good advice and all. I've kind of split this between this thread and Kens' "What to expect........" one, but anyway, we got everything watered well, all the alfalfa/weeds between tree rows has been mowed down, and a generic Roundup product has been sprayed around all tree rings. So yes, all is well at the plantation!

As I mentioned in that other thread, we have three Green Giants in this planting, and they are doing very well. Still not sure of their ultimate suitability for this climate, winter hardiness-wise, but at this point, they appear very strong.

Pam, I don't think I'd derive enough benefit from a pre-emergence herbicide to make it worthwhile. Much of what I'm dealing with is perennial, stoloniferous weeds like quackgrass, and the alfalfa itself, which would not be controlled by these materials. It would stop the dandelions, but since I need the non-selective (Roundup) type spray anyway, I just catch everything with that.

Spruce, some of mine have that berm too, and yes, this definitely makes watering much more efficient. Perhaps next spring, I'll make sure to provide that for all new plantings.

+oM