just a beginner, but i found so much information on wintersow forum. i learn not to read seed bags just germination databases.they even have one that shows what others have done in your area, good or bad.I too have never took seed to plant though i have tried.this seemed easy, but i new questions all the time.the forum is very helpful.good luck

Yes Flowered-
It all SEEMS EASY! lol
You are so right, there is excellent info on the Winter Sowing Forum (which is where I began two years ago), and yet I still can't figure out what I was doing wrong!

Last night I discovered a wonderful related site WINTERSOWN:
http://www.wintersown.org/

which has great info too, including the germination databases that you mentioned, Flowered- (though they were a little confusing with some data giving months and some just Y or N).
I guess I have to keep reading what others have done and maybe some of it will sink into my thick head eventually.
Thanks for your reply!
Patti

This is my first year of wintersowing and I'm having a ball! So far, I have 168 containers - some milk jugs and 2 liters, but mostly plastic cups in clear sterilite boxes. I have another 25 that will go in today, and some more seed coming. I have germination in 82 of the containers and I plan to start planting out some of the hardier seedlings today.

I know that seems like a lot of plants but I have very few perennials in my yard so far, and I've added a couple of big beds with more planned. With the prices I've seen for perennials around here and on the web, there's no way I could afford to plant what I can start with winter sowing in one season. Plus I have family and friends that I've ear-marked certain plants for.

I'm a believer!

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I left out some details you asked for (I'm still very sleepy, lol).
I sowed my first containers in January, starting with hardy perennials. I've continued sowing perennials with the last ones going in yesterday. I started my hardy annuals in about the second week of February, and I'm finishing up with the rest of those and my half-hardy annuals today (well, except for some seed I just ordered, lol).
My zone is 8, so I'm ahead of you as far as annuals go. You should still have plenty of time (according to posts I've read from others in your zone).
Post over on the board and you'll get tons of responses from folks who've had much more experience than I have and many of them are familiar with your area.
Good Luck!!

This is my second winter sowing season. The first one wasn't as successful as I've heard others' were. But I did start planting right after christmas and left the containers outside. I didn't see any plastic covers on your containers - could that be a reason? I use plastic wrap and poke holes in the top. It keeps the moisture in, allows snow and rain to get inside, but I made sure the containers still had drainage from the bottom. Even though the dirt is frozen, when it starts to melt, I would think that it would be better for air cirulation so they don't rot. Certain seeds have better germination than others. I always have trouble with poppies. Out of four packs of different varieties of poppy seeds I think I got two plants! And they were so small last season that I'm not sure they're going to come back. But one thing I know for sure, when you plant tons of containers, you end up with plants regardless...you just don't know how many or what kind! This year I'm not going crazy - I've done three flats so far and I'm considering direct sowing some as soon as the snow melts.

Estelle

Estelle - The milk jugs are cut with a curved opening in the side but I didn't cut the flap totally off. I can bend the flap down when I want to get to the plants, but it stays closed when not bent down, so no plastic baggie needed. I'll hold the flap open with a clothes pin to harden off.
The 2 liters are cut completely through, then little triangular chunks cut from the tops so they'll fit over the bottom halves(a technique I picked up from a posting on the WS Forum). They're completely closed now, except for the open bottle top. When it is time to harden them off, I'll just lift the top a bit, which will let fresh air in to the plants little by little.
The plastic boxes have holes drilled in the tops and bottoms for air and drainage, and the cups inside each have four holes for drainage. To harden off, I'll leave the lid open a bit more each day.

WOW, Pameliap! You really mean business! Everything looks great. You are so neat and orderly. I would hate to show you what MY containers looked like!
I do agree with you that the zone is important and I believe now that it was one of the mistakes I made in sowing my seeds. Thanks very much for your input!

Estelle, Thanks for your post and your email. I think you make some very good points and want to add your email message here:
"Here are a couple of other things to consider - how old were your seeds? And how do you store them? They should be in a cool, dry spot. (I've read that they can be kept in a
covered container with a packet of powdered milk...I think it was.... I guess it acts like silica gel and attracts the moisture. I think I may have seen that on the martha stewart gardening section. Hope this helps!"

This is Patti again. Estelle, I think the seeds were fresh, but it's possible I got some older ones off the store rack and didn't notice the dates. I also tend to be bad about following directions like "keep in a cool, dry spot". I think this all seemed so simple to me that I wasn't as careful as I should have been. Thanks for the reminder!
Patti

Impressive set-up, pameliap! Looks like you are on the right track.

I'm assuming by "wintersown" you mean things that are started outside before the snow melts? That's what I think I'm understanding. I know that my Canadian zone 4/5 is far different from many of the southern US zones, but I have had good success with starting seeds. Perhaps you might get some tips from my methods, pattioh (and others).

First of all, there are very few things that we can successfully wintersow here without the aid of a heat source. Seeds just will not germinate when the day/night temps fluctuate like they do here. I've sown poppyseeds (annual) right on top of the snow in April before - works well, except that when there is a lot of snow it's hard to tell exactly where your seeds will land sometimes and many wash out of the bed with snow melt. Not a big deal if you don't mind pulling the strays or having a "poppied" walkway;)

So......years ago DH built me my first "grow stand". Yes, I tried using a sunny window, but windows are only so big and seeds are addictive! That first grow stand had two shelves each 4 feet long and could hold 4 nursery sized trays. That was good for the first two years, but as the gardens expanded so did my addiction. I also started selling the extra plants about this time. We upgraded to a substantially larger growing unit in the heated basement - it held 32 trays at capacity, but that was for commercial production (I ran a perennial and seed business for years). Now I've downscaled to half that size, so about 16 trays. The fixtures are regular 4 foot double fluorescents and I use a "warm" and a "cool" light in each. Most of the fixtures we scavenged from building renovations/landfill. I bought a couple. They are fairly cheap. Just one of these fixtures over a table or bench would give you ample room to begin sowing seeds.

Here are some other guidelines:

1. yes, use a database or talk to other experienced gardeners in your area to find out when they plant. Six weeks before frost is a relative term and is different for each area. You'll need to find out your average frost dates (an almanac works well and they are mostly on-line now).

2. Use a good growing mix. It will cost you more, but I've found the cheaper ones (Walmart, Dollarstore, etc.) just don't cut it. I buy a large bale (4 cu. feet) or two of Heco mix (made here in NB) from a local nursery. It's worth the extra money because it is formulated for seed starting. You will have better success (ie: healthier seedlings, far less damping off and mold).

3. Any kind of containers will work, but it's fairly easy and convenient to salvage a few trays and plastic packs during the summer from grocery stores or temporary greenhouses like Walmart that sell plants only for a few months. You can also buy them new. I've used just about every kind of container.

4. Use a large container (a wash tub or rubbermaid box) to mix your growing medium with waater before using it. It should be pleasantly damp and hold together in a loose ball when you squeeze a handful of it. Take care not to make it too wet or it will be difficult to fill your containers.

5. Fill containers with medium and then sow seeds. This is where you need to pay attention to the seed package or a good resource. Some seeds (very few) REQUIRE light to germinate, so you want to sow them just on top and pat them down. Most seeds you can sow in a little hole of furrow, but unless it's a big seed, don't go any deeper than 1/8" to 1/4". Tiny seeds just can't push up through more than that.

6. Water your trays/containers LIGHTLY. This is key - you don't want to soak them. That removes all oxygen and waterlogs the medium. The seeds will just rot. Now lightly cover the tray/container with plastic (I use clear, but white will work also - avoid black as it makes the surface too hot). Place your trays/containers under a direct light source. This is where the lights come in handy. Typically your seedlings will need between 14 to 16 hours of light daily. That isn't usually feasible in a window this time of year. It can be done, but the seedlings will not be as strong. I have my lights hooked up to timers now, but for years I just turned them on/off.

7. Check your trays/containers daily. Most perennials take awhile to germinate (3 weeks or more) but some are pretty fast. You should lift the plastic every day just to let air circulate. You don't have to remove it, just lift it up. Once you see several seedlings poking up through the medium TAKE THE PLASTIC OFF. This is critical. You will lose the seedlings very quickly to damping off if you leave the plastic on them. A tip on trays: I try to plant several varieties that have similar days-to-germination so that the entire tray germinates around the same time and I can remove the plastic on the whole thing.

8. Water lightly and sparingly. The soil surface should look dry before you water. You can use a spray bottle to mist the seedlings daily if you like. This is especially helpful if they are near a heat source. Oh yes, temperature: most germination will occur around 20 deg. C (room temp.) Add lights and plastic and it gets considerably warmer. This is OK except if you have something that requires cool temps to germinate.

9. Transplant your seedlings to larger containers (4" pots or half-and-half/milk cartons, etc.) once they have AT LEAST 2 true leaves. Remember the first two "leaves" you see are actually cotyledons, not leaves. Let the babies grow until real leaves appear. You can leave them longer - I've transplanted when they have several leaves with no problem. If your seedlings are very close or in a clump, it's best to transplant as soon as possible.

Well, that's the "indoor" part of my winter sowing. Usually about late April/early May I start moving things out to the greenhouse (I know! not everyone has a greenhouse). I used to have two cold frames - they work great! I had plants in them before the snow was gone. Find some old windows to salvage and you can rig up an easy cold frame with cement blocks and windows or many other ways (a search online would give you lots of ideas). I find that this transition from inside to outside really does require some intermediary adjustment in our climate.

One final note on seeds: not all seeds are created equal. Well, that's not true, but not all sources provide good seed. Buying from a nursery or directly from a seed catalogue is the best bet (usually guaranteed), but I buy at the local dollarstore too. Just remember that you get what you pay for sometimes. Happy sowing everyone! It IS addictive and it's definately economical once you get set up. No way I'm paying $20 for the "newest" perennial when I can grow dozens of my own for that!

(sorry for the long post)

Balsam, What a trove of information you are!
I DID think I would plant some seeds indoors too, as well as sowing some insitu, depending on the plant.
So this is all very helpful to me. Thanks for the detailed info!

Patti

Patti, I sow mine when I can all through the winter. I try to find out what I can about the seeds I have and sow the ones that need the most (longest) chill first. This year I've gone back to milk jugs just because they are easy to cut (I cut a flap in one side so I can get a hand in if need be). You've already gotten a TON of good info above, so I won't go into any details on methods. I put my pots/jugs on my back porch (uncovered/facing south) or along the back of the house. I move shade-loving plants over to the shady west side of the house once the seeds have sprouted.

I had a good many of my seeds sprout early because of warm weather. Most of those seedlings have just hunkered down during the cold weather, but one thing I have noticed is that some are very frost tender. When the temps went down into the teens and then the sun came out and hit the front row of jugs, the plants didn't have time to warm up a little and so got blasted (mostly just the ones in the very front of the jugs). So, I am making sure to leave the already blasted sides facing south and if needed I can put a little screen up, but they really do need sun.

I'm taking advantage of dreary weather today to sow some more.

Some of mine are garden-ready by last frost, but most still need some time to grow. I am a terrible seedling transplanter, that accounts for most of my loss. I try to pot up some of the seedlings and let them grow a little more before planting out. It depends on what the plants are, foxgloves seem to take a whole season to really get big, painted daisies or blanket flowers are ready to get out and stretch their roots early.

Good luck!
kent

They say a picture tells a thousand words - -

The following pictures are from my first wintersowing season 2004/5 - Take the plunge - Carrie

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ok, once you get all those tiny plants germinated, how do you separate them for planting withoug hurting them? TIA

dogridge - If you are interested in wintersowing - and that's a very good question which I can answer now - you can check out the wintersowing forum here on Gardenweb - and ALL of your questions can be answered by us and the FAQ.

Obviously, the front container filled with Larkspurs, would take me all day to separate - (there were SO many!), so what we do is either separate them or plant out them out in "hunks" and let the strongest survive. It works - believe me.

Carrie

Ooooooooooooo!!!! pameliap and carrie! You are both professionals! I tried winter sowing last year and it did work, I was amazed. Yours look so neat and orderly.

The one mistake I made was procrastinating in planting them when they out grew the containers.

Patti, it really - really works. I've seen some winter sowers containers covered in snow and yet the tender sprouts are growing away.

WinterSowing has literally changed my gardening life - lets me experiment with plants that you can't get in a regular nursery. Last year was my first year and I had tremendous success - of course I went overboard and didn't get everything planted out but what the heck most of the seeds were cheapies or given to me so the cost was minimal. The following was my set up after I had taken several of the tops off - I used big sheets of plastic to cover my flats. I used regular 6 packs and 4" nursery pots. I also used gal milk jugs for for mini greenhouses. The two places mentioned are GREAT sites and everyone is very very helpful on the WinterSow Forum....

Lynne

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a new perennial bed of mostly wintersown plants taken in September

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another garden bed
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container plants
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I'm not WS here anymore. Weather is too radical where I live. Last year I lost all but a few of the seedlings I had in the 50+ containers I had gowing.
But, I have WS seeds in my very cold, but not freezing south-facing window (does that count?).
They are up:

Hollyhock, (black, figleaf)
Helenium 'Windley'
Verbascum nigrum (yellow with purple)
Rudbeckia, 'Green Wizard'
Salvia, Yvonne's Red
Salvia nemorosa, 'May Night'
Echinacea 'Primodonna' (white)
Echinacea, 'Palida' (pale purple almost white)
Yarrow, (Purple)
And five cuttings of Province Lavender I'm rooting.
6 kinds of tomatoes and some broccoli

I have much more to sow as soon as there is space available in the window. I need to tranplant (re-pot) all the tomato seedlings and broccoli seedlings into larger containers this week, and make table room for them out in my make-shift greenhouse, where they will grow until after the last frost date on April 15th, weather permitting.

And to all of my NC gardener friends, (Lynne, I am just drooling over your pots of WS and garden pictures and beautiful lawn...and tall pine trees). I still want to move to North Carolina, but. . .doesn't look like that will happen now. My DH got his well-deserved promotion finally, so here we will stay for the time being anyway. He will just need to build me a big greenhouse to hold all my tropicals! - that'll fix him! JK.

I got my order of 15 pines trees in the mail on Saturday. Yippee! Supposed to get 5 ea. of Loblolly, Slash, and Virginia pines. They gave me double the amount I ordered of the Loblolly's and Virginia pines. Wow! Hope I can keep them alive so I can grow my own Piney Woods. If I can't move to the Carolinas, I will just grow it here, kinda-sorta! :)

Keep Winter Sowing, and "Have a good one!".
~ Annie

Pattioh ~ Thank you so much for starting this thread. What wonderful info and pictures too. I just worked in my potting garden area yesterday, wanting to get set up to plant seeds.

Pameliap ~ Wow, pictures are terrific. Thanks for sharing yours. You have had great success and that is inspiring.

Estelle ~ WS can be discouraging sometimes, but there is a great feeling even when some of the seeds sprout and grow. I think that's what keeps me trying.

Balsam ~ What a lot of great info. I'm going to save this whole thread so that I can re-read it at leisure and when I need info or inspiration to keep going.

Kent ~ It sounds like you are busy and having success too.

Carrie630 ~ Thanks for your pictures of seedlings then ones of the flowers in your gardens. Fantastic.

Lynnencfan ~ Thanks for your pictures also. It's great seeing everyone's ways of winter sowing, and the fantastic results.

Annie ~ I do hope you get your own 'Piney Woods'. I can hear your happiness and your positive attitude about working with where you are living right now. For not doing WS anymore you sure have a lot of seeds sprouting and I'm sure you'll have many lovely flowers in your gardens because of it.

This thread is exciting. I want to get out and get my hands dirty again today, after doing some errands this morning.

FlowerLady

What great pictures carrie and lynne! Wow!

I think I understand what you mean by wintersowing now. It's a little different here because we can't actually sow things outdoors in pots during the winter. Our temps regularly dip to between -20 and -30 C until sometime in February/March. Nothing survives that very well in a little container. Could likely do that with a coldframe and hot bed, though.

BUT - I do some winter sowing inside. Those perennials/shrubs/trees that need vernalization (cold period) get sown in little packs/containers, watered, wrapped in plastic and then they go in the fridge for several weeks/months depending on what they need. I've used this method successfully for many roses and perennials and also apple trees (yes, I grew them from seed and they are fruit bearing age now - hopefully get some apples this year). Of course, you do need an extra fridge for this. I happen to have one that I got from my parents when they moved. Its in the basement next to my grow light setup and it's great for storing seeds and extra gorceries (and beer);)

SweetAnnie: I wintersow quite successfully in Oklahoma. I find the biggest problem I have is keeping the pots moist enough. I try to get all the seedlings out when they are quite small (very small) and then keep up with the watering in the ground, then they get a better start with more room for their roots.

Last year was a rotten year for everything :) That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

Lisa

Hi Balsam, did you know there's a Canadian Winter Sowing Forum? You CAN sow outside in extreme conditions...

Patti: Don't get discouraged. My first year winter sowing I hardly had any sprouts. But I was determined and tried it again the following winter with much success.

I know most people start their perennials around the winter solstice, but I found that starting mine a bit later helped. I think our winters here in zone 5 are just too harsh to start them that early. I wait until the end of January or sometime in February to sow my perennials. For annuals that reseed (like cosmos, dianthus, snaps, etc.) I WS them in mid to late March. If I'm not sure whether the annual can take WSing or not, I'll WS half of the seeds and then save the other half to sow indoors.

I hope that helps! Good luck and have fun.

Tracy

Wow, more great responses!

Kent, I wonder what could be the trouble with your transplanting? Perhaps with all your posthole digging you now have the strenght of 10 men (or at least 3 or 4) and are crushing your little seedlings.
I've read that a tomato-stem-scooper-outer is very nice to use in moving them.
Dogridge, maybe the little scooper might help you too, unless you have a million seedlings like Carrie of course!

Carrie, how lovely! If you could only have seen my poor flats of soil, bereft of life. Not a single sprout!

Edna, I'm very afraid that if I ever DO get anything to grow - procrastination will be my next problem! lol

Lynne, lovely photos! Thank you for mentioning the big (and "heavy")sheets of plastic. I know just what you're talking about and they'd be perfect for me to use.

Annie, our "backroom" isn't heated and has a south-facing picture window. So you can bet I'm going to try some seeds inside too!
Good luck with your pine trees.

Dearest FlowerLady, I'm starting to get excited too!!! Aren't all these responses wonderful.

Balsam, I'm so impressed that you grew your own apples from seed! I should have tried something like that when our daughter was little.

Lisa h, I like your "excuse"!

Crazy-, I'm going to check out the Canadian WSF right now. I'm glad you mentioned it.

Tracy, thanks for the encouragement. Late March seems right for my area. I think I started in February last time!

I'm really ready to give this winter sowing thing another try. Thanks so much everyone for your input.
If anyone else has anything to add, FEEL FREE!

PattiOh

Great ideas and pics everyone. Thanks for sharing. Can you wintersow poppies, lupines and larkspur now? I have a few seeds.

On the winter sowing forum you are told to take a leap of faith. Four years ago that was hard for me. I just couldn't understand how it could work. But I was so surprised! I had 100% germination.This is my 4th year and have only 20 jugs this year. I put mine out Feb 15th. Only 6 jugs are not showing green.

This system works so well, I tell all my gardening friends about it. I have so far converted two to this wonderful method!

bellarosa - yes, you can- but those kinds of questions would be better answered on the wintersowing forum. But, yes, you can start them now. Why don't you come for a visit? We are a friendly bunch - running back and forth from this forum to that one.

Carrie

I personally love winter sowing as it has totally destroyed any chances of winter depression that I struggled with for years. I also started 4 yrs ago with about 98% success. Now, I get 100%,I cannot "not" winter sow. My life would not be the same. almost everything in my garden in winter sown now. I planted blue girl climbing rose seeds two weeks ago (off the rose hips_ and i have 3 sprouted! I was shocked! I never expected that at all. I've actually become quite fanatic about it and all my friends think I am nuts. oh, well.

Patti, I know you have had a lot of answers and I probably missed that along the way, but please describe in exact terms what you mean by "A TOTAL DISASTER". Did the seeds fail to germinate at all? Did they start to germinate, then died off? Did they die when you transplanted them to the ground? Depending on the answer, you should then find the cure. If they all failed to germinate, then maybe the seeds were old / not viable. If they germinated, but then died down, maybe the ventillation slits were not big enough? Or you opened the lids too early in the year and a blast of cold did them in? If you transplanted them to the ground and they died afterwards, could it be we are talking about plants that don't like to be transplanted (poppies, etc.) and they died of shock? Or were eaten by the slugs? (happens with my lupines *every single time*, sigh...)

I'm not familiar with ws in a climate as cold as yours, but I think it's important you identify the root cause of the problem and fix it before you try again, so as to avoid being discouraged.

I have been wsoing for about 4 years now with varying degrees of success, but overall my impression is that the method works very well, especially for perennials, shrubs and trees. I have started crape myrtles, vitex and a birch tree, plus herbaceous perennials, via this method with success. Until I discovered wsowing I no longer bothered to sow anything, as direct sowing is very iffy in my garden and either the slugs, snails or birds destroyed all that was sowed. Wsowing does give me a lot more control about what I sow.

The only thing that is not so good for my particular situation is the fact that by the time seedlings are good to go in the ground we are already having hot and dry weather, which sometimes prevents them from performing as good. As a rule of thumb which I discovered by trial and error, I now tend to avoid planting anything in the ground from May to September, even nursery bought plants. I find that our long dry Summers stress plants beyond belief and many struggle to establish and die. As WSowing usually takes a while to grow seedlings to an acceptable size before the end of April, I will occasionally loose a plant if I plant it out later than that. But in my view this is not a failure of the method, it's a characteristic of my climate which I have learnt the hard way...

Hope you have success with your WSowing this year.
Eduarda

Eduarda, I really meant TOTAL disaster. Nothing happened. Nothing green emerged at all and I too thought I needed more info before I tried again. I think it's possible that I gave up before the seeds had a chance to sprout. (I'm just trying to grow flowers. I'm too old to wait for trees and shrubs! lol)

Strikes me as odd that there seems to be fewer winter sowers in my zone and colder, than there are in the warmer zones. I would think it would be the other way around since the colder you go the shorter the opportunity to grow things outside. Maybe I'm totally wrong about this. I'm not forming any hypothesis and I'm not conducting any research, but I'm going to start paying more attention to WHERE people are having good results and WHAT they are growing.

Meanwhile I'm going to give WS another shot in a few weeks.

Thanks to all who wrote to comment!
PattiOh

Patti, I believe someone in the WS forum does a map of where the wsowers are, you might want to have a look at it. As for your trying in a couple of weeks time, well, we'll be in Spring by then, so technically you're no longer Wsowing... Kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

If nothing came up for you, I suspect seeds were no good, you didn't wait long enough and/or the mix was allowed to dry before they had a chance to germinate. I can't quite see what else could have happened. Even in climates which are quite cold, seeds should still have a chance to at least germinate, even if they get zapped by cold afterwards. What kind of flowers were you trying? If they were perennials they will take longer to germinate, usually. If they were annuals, maybe you started them too soon. In Wsowing annuals are generally the last ones to be sown and in cold climates quite late in the process. As for perennials, the scarification process that quite a few seeds need to germinate is handled beautifully by the process, without the complicated soaking and nicking you would need otherwise. I think you should try again with only a limited amount of perennials and annuals and really try to ascertain what went wrong when.

Eduarda

This is my first year and I have about 110 containers out and sprouts in about 20 of them so far. I still have more to do. I have used milk jugs, soda bottles, aluminum pans in Ziploc bags and styrofoam cups in Ziploc bags. I'm incredibly impressed with the whole process so far. And like others have said, the folks on the Winter Sowing board are very helpful and friendly.

I noticed you were concerned about your zone. There are alot of people WSing in Zone 5. I do hope you'll give this another chance. There's still time.

Hi, I am new to WSing - I read about it when it was first on GardenWeb. I wasn't sure if it would work and other things kind of made me forget and just maintain what I have. Moving twice etc.
But I kept all the seeds in the refrigerator.
My daughter and son-in-law gave me a computer in January and this is the first place I looked.. Well, I have about 30 different kinds of seeds planted, mostly perennials and biennials, and some hardy annuals.
I planted them after a cold (for us) and icey snowy January and I have so many plants that I have no idea what I am going to do with them all! Some annual poppies were sown where they are going to grow and are getting their first set of leaves. I used aluminum lasagne pans because they are deeper, but think jugs or something deeper are better, the seeds grown in styrofoam cups looks good for next year. The seeds I planted are 5 to 6 years old with some newer ones. I still have a hard time leaving them out when it was in the 30s and they were sprouted, but they all seem to be doing well. I guess 5 or 6 years was long to "think about it" - and wish I had started then so I wouldn't have to wait a year or two for flowers.
I hope you have a better experience, I have lost lots too
over the years, so I know it can be discouraging.
Karan