It looks like it could be a nutrient deficiency. Mike had a good writeup over the summer of lots of deficiencies and how they present themselves. Shooting out new leaves and then dropping them sounds like it's pretty stressed. The large pot size could be contributing to the stress and what ever mix you have it potted in (it looks like standard potting soil, is it?) Do you use any fertalizer when you water?

Here is a link that might be useful: Plant Nutrient Deficiencies. This will help you!

I figured it was some sort of nutrient deficiency or abundance. I'm not sure who Mike is, do you have a link to the information you mention?

The time between the new leaves and drop varies but it's typically a month or so. The soil is not potting mix, it's ~50% the soil that was in the pot when I bought the tree and the rest is my mix of compost, dirt, sand. Drainage is great and I only fertilize every 7-8 weeks.

Sklett...

Not to be mean, but quite bluntly, your soil mix stinks..

Your plants are reacting to it..Change the mix to a better porous mix as soon as possible, or it will expire eventually...

That is what use to do before I read this..:-)

Mike

Here is a link that might be useful: Information to help your tree

"This is what mine use to do, before I read this"...:-)

Your tree will improve as fast as you can blink an eye, once your roots start breathing..

Ah Mike, we meet! ;0)

Thanks for the info.

When you say a more porous mix how do you suggest I accomplish that? More sand? More organics? Something else I don't know about maybe? If you tell me the mix I will make it, but left to my own interpretation or "more porous" it could turn out nothing like what you are suggesting.

Also, do you think this is a good time of year to make a change like that?

@meyermike - just as with ottomike I missed the link. I just finished reading that excellent post from tapla! It's so great when you learn something and it's not just memorizing or reading, but rather learning because you UNDERSTAND the underlying data. Everything in that post makes sense and I can feel that it has securely situated itself in my mental gardening library.

I'm going to start collecting the materials listed. I am disappointed that compost does not have a place in the recipe as I'm an avid composter and have tons of the stuff.

Thanks again for the info, if things go well I will reply with some pictures.

Sklett,
save that compost for your traditional in-ground or raised bed gardening! It's worth its weight in gold.

However, as you now know, compost has little use in a container setting, which is closer to hydroponic
gardening than in-ground gardening.

As for the timing of the re-pot....well, I'd consider it an emergency re-pot. The best time, of course,
would be just prior to the Spring flush (or the period of greatest, most robust growth activity).

That said...you've indicated that you're in zone 10 - and that's going to help your citrus survive.
I wouldn't hesitate to try and salvage a citrus at this date in a zone 10. As long as the tree has
enough vitality remaining, it should pull through just fine.


Josh

Hi sklett..

Fantastic..

What you just read can be a life saving experience for every plant you own in a container and allow you to broaden your growing experience to many plants you thought you could never grow...

I'm sorry your tree has problems, but I am sure that, just as many have experienced here, once you start with the proper mix that allows the roots to your plants to grow their best, then they will begin to thank you by taking up nutrients properly and reward you with some awesome things you never thought they could do..

Please, let us knows what happens..

P.s..If transplanting your tree means no more stress, especially coming into the winter, I would do it now but that is just my .02cents..

You have couple of options..

You could either rinse every last bit of that old soil off and transplant into the new mix, filling in all around the roots called bare rooting, or, you could just try and get most of the old soil off around the roots and pot up into a much better mix, which will although, leave you with the task of watching the root ball very closely until the spring when you repot properly..

What I would do is a brave move, drastic, since I have never had a problem doing so any time of the year. See what the friends here have to say..;-)

I would search these threads to see if there are any suggestions on what you should do now..........Transplant, Wait, or Bare Root?
Or you could ask this question on container forums and see what what many experts have to say..You will get the support you need..

Mike

Josh, you must be posting at the same time!

Fantastic advice..

Thank you..I am glad you came buy and helped us as you always do..:-).Thanks for all you have shown me about re-potiing

Mike

look here

Here is a link that might be useful: mrtexas

@mrtexas - thanks for that link, sure looks like a ZINC deficiency to me. I'm going to repot once I can make the "AL mix" and then I will see if that makes things better.

That is the key Sklett...

Once we know what the deficiency could be, we need to get to the root of the problem..

What is causing my plant to not take up a certain nutrient even though I am feeding it?

It is almost always linked to poor cultural habits that inhibit the nutrients, usually starting with the mix, then possible over watering, the possible pH issues, then possible drastic temps and so on..

From the sounds and looks of it, your soil could be the biggest limiting factor this very moment..

Mike:-)

Sheesh, I almost forgot.

Mrtexas: Thank you very very much for that link..I loved it!

Mike

@All - I'm surprised to say that I can't fine "Pine Bark Fines" I called 9 nurseries Today and none of them have it. I also check with my local farm supply ("Orange County Farm Supply") and the looked at me like I was nuts when I asked for it.

So my question is, anyone in Southern Cal. know where to get this stuff?

I got everything else Today... just need the bark.

Thanks again,
Steve

Any nursery that doesn't know what Pine Bark is shouldn't be in the business of selling, in my opinion.

There should be PLENTY of nurseries or stores that carry Orchid Bark or fine Bark Mulch.
E.B. Stone is the producer of the bark products that I use.

Josh

Hi Josh,

It's probably that I'm asking for too specific of an item. I KNOW they all have orchid bark but didn't realize that this was pine bark. I've visited several of the nurseries and have checked several different bark and mulch products and they either specify cedar or nothing at all. I have not seen a single one that lists pine bark as an ingredient.

From your response, it sounds like orchid bark is what I'm after so I will go buy a couple of bags of that. Thank you for the reply and tip.

Yeah, go for the Orchid Bark (fine grade)!
Technically, it's fir bark. Pine bark, proper, is a little more durable, but not enough to notice...
especially if you plan on re-potting every one to three years.

Josh

Cedar? Pine bark?

The product that's available in your region depends upon what's abundant and most readily available to the vendors. Pine bark fines aren't in CA. More common to see redwood and fir.

And usually Douglas Fir at that - Pseudotsuga menziesii.
Doug Fir dominates the Pacific Northwest market.


Josh

I finally made up my mix and re-potted my citrus today. I decided to go for it 100% and hosed off ALL the old soil/sand from the root ball. As I was digging out the old soil from the pot I was thinking "man, this really doesn't look bad, in fact this looks really good" but I have faith! So I dumped the old stuff into my soil pile out back and mixed up the new and potted my little tree. Watered it really well of course.

Now I just wait and see what happens.

Here are some picks I took, the first is the bark I ended up using. It seemed to be the best bargain (about $5 for 2 cu. ft.) and is much like the "orchid bark" that costs 5x as much.

{{gwi:645019}}

And here are some shots of it all mixed up.

{{gwi:645020}}

{{gwi:645021}}

Some of the bark chunks are larger and that is what you see floating on the top of the mix, the majority is much smaller and blends in with the peat.

Thanks again for all the info and support. I will post pictures every once in awhile to show progress of the tree (in case anyone is interested)

Forest products? I wonder what all that includes...?

I'd have gone with the pure bark product, personally.

That mix looks very fine (small particulates).
How much peat are we talking, and in what ratios are the ingredients mixed?

Josh

It looks like it's all bark and actually even looked like pine park (odd waivy patterns in it). Anyway, it was the closest thing I could find that wasn't going to cost too much. I couldn't find just plain old bark, only the "orchid bark" which was more than I wanted to spend.

Anyway, I followed the instructions for the "large batch of Al's mix" which is:
- 2-3 cu ft pine bark fines
- 5 gallons peat
- 5 gallons perlite
- 2 cups dolomitic lime (or gypsum in some cases)
- 2 cups CRF
- 1/2 cup micro-nutrient powder

I made that same mix except I couldn't find the lime so I used gypsum instead.

The peat was really fine, like heavy sawdust. I don't know if that's normal or not, I've never purchased or worked with peat moss.

After calling 10+ nurseries, driving to 5 and Osh and Home Depot looking for pine bark and lime I finally got fed up Today and just used the bark that was within budget.

Hopefully it works.

I think I found the description...made from Ponderosa Pine and Douglas Fir, so that's great.

Maybe we can get Al over here to advise further.

Josh

I use that cheap bark (not for container soil) quite a bit the past few years. It is available here at Lowes and Walmart where early season it's 2.50 for the 2cuft bag, 4.50 normal. The stuff is much too large and has a very high % of woody material for the 511 or gritty mix IMO. It is not acceptable unless it's sifted to get at the smaller pieces. At least you got the 'pequeno' bag ;-) b/c the bag marked medium have the largest chunks of bark I've ever seen in any bagged product, except for their 'grande' bag has pieces as big as my hand. The good part of the product is that it does not have an unacceptable amount of dust fines in it. Just bark, woody material, some large rocks here and there, and something I've yet to figure out: large chunks of black solid goop (it smears grey when you press on it). Maybe it's grease from machinery, who knows. I've found at least one in every third bag or so and are easy to spot.

I think something went wrong with the ratio of bark vs. peat there... It is definitely too fine. Although it's not a 'useless' soil, it just won't achieve the drainage and aeration that a proper 511 mix allows for. You could add more bark or just leave it as-is. Take a look at this picture of a nice citrus in the 5-1-1 mix. It might look familiar, I surreptitiously posted a copied link from Greenman/Josh above =p

Now that I think about it, it's possible your measurements were not extremely far off. The bark chunks are so large that mixing a 2cuft pile isn't the same as a 2cuft pile of pieces 1/2" in size. Although the volume may be the same, the mass is very different due to air gaps. Reminds me of that annoying Sobakawa commercial with the fake experiment using the same volume of materials to stop a weight from break eggs. But I digress.

Josh's and other images of citrus in the 511 mix can be found in the post below.

Here is a link that might be useful: A different GW forum post

Sklett!!

Hi..The fact that you are willing to admit that the stuff your plant was growing in is far less superior than making your own is a huge step, leap of faith and very brave..Proud of you..:-)

All the friends here want to see you succeed and therefore all these fine suggestions..

I probably would of posted the mix before you planted to get the feed back you needed...
It looks like it is very fine and yet anything is better than what it was in for now..I would of sifted out all the peat moss and used what was left behind, the bark and perlite that is with some fine particles still attached to it all, or add in a bit of remaining peat to tweak your mix a bit.
I would of left the gypsum out all together. Just me

I am happy you you live in an area that gives you an advantage over us to do such a transplant right now and I am confident it will do much better for you than what it was in.

Keep an eye on how fast your mix dries out. How fast it drains. How quick it breaks down if you decide not to do anything else at this time..
Also, don't forget to keep it out of the hot sun for a while until it begins to perk up.

Maybe Al will be by to let us know what if any affect adding gypsum will have in your peat mix..

I am sorry I did not read above post's, so if I repeated anything anyone said I am sorry..I only had a few minutes to share with you before I had to go..

Mike

BTW most of us know how you feel about getting a bit frustrated finding components, or when you do, finding out they are super expensive. On the one hand you could have waited until we reviewed a picture to help you further, but on the other hand I applaud you for just "jumping in" as you'll get lots of experience just doing it.

Just an FYI I have one citrus in a mix that is nearly identical to what your end-result was: and it's been thriving just fine for two years now. Like I said above, if you're up to it, you could "fix" the soil later (like early spring) by bare-rooting again and adding proper sized bark or just leave it alone and I'd suspect it will do just fine, especially if you add a wick to the bottom so it drains excess water (PWT) out. Then you can use Foliage Pro or whatever fertilizer with micros you use. But since you added gypsum, be sure to mix a little bit of Epsom salts (maybe 1/8th tsp per gallon?) when you apply the fert.

If you do decide to make the mix more like a 511 mix, the bark that Josh and I use here in CA is GreenAll brand Micro Deco Bark. You could ask specifically for this product, it should be much cheaper (like $8 per 2cuft) than the dedicated Orchid bark you've been pricing. If you can find it, you wouldn't have to sift this at all. I'd bare-root, take the existing soil from the pot and remove 50% of it and replace it with an equal amount of the GreenAll bark.

That's great advice, Al.
And thank you for linking to my image above...that was a nice surprise ;)

Josh

Are you limited to only growing citrus in containers? Citrus is dead simple in zone 10 if you plant them in the spring in a sunny spot.

When we plant around here, the rule of thumb is to plant where the cat sleeps in the yard ;)

I was on a walk yesterday, and I discovered two large Lemon trees planted on a property.

I didn't think that citrus would grow this high up....


Josh

Lot's of great additional information here, I appreciate all the replies and additional links like "GreenAll". Was that Al that posted that? If so, thanks Al!

Unfortunately I have bad news, my tree is history. Earlier Today I checked on it and it was dropping all it's leaves and they had light brown spotting all over them. A gentle shake of the tree and the remaining leave pretty much all fell off.

All the information is great and I learned a lot (I think). I'm not too eager to run out try this again but I think I'm just mad right now because my attempts failed so terribly. Maybe spring time I will try again with new mix.

Man, I feel like I should apologize to you all!

{{gwi:645022}}

Better luck next time! :0)

Citrus are tough. My daughter decided to play in my pot tonight, luckily she didn't uncover much of the roots or break any. She did burn a few leaves from the light though! It should be just fine, but ya never know. I say try again! Plenty of people have killed citrus but you just learn and get better.

i imagine its already in a trash pile somewhere, but for future trees just because it is leafless doesnt mean its dead. You can take your fingernail and scrape a bit of bark off, if you see green there is still hope, brown its firewood.

Sklett...

To add to badsmerf's comment which was encourageing, please don't give it...

Do you have any idea how many trees I had to go through before I got it right? These trees are just awsome to grow and once you nail it with all this help, you will keep going back for more..I know you can do it..:-)

Hi Mksmth....Good see hear from you..:-)

Josh: Great advice...I love that saying..

Cebury...I hope everything is wlel with you..I love the comments you posted..Good job..I learn from you in many ways.

Mrclint: I would not mind at all growing in your area..Sounds like you just might have the weather I love and so would my plants..
Mike

OK, i have two pots in my sunroom, large pots. In one of them, in corner, there is this super extra ultimate draining soil, there are small particles of leaves in it, and it is a grey color, i think a little of it my be cat...organic matter... from a year ago, as my old cat before he died would...mhm... but ive noticed that it drains really good. My citus soil is almost half of that, and a thin layer of it near the roots. ITS GREAT!

Yeah Mike, around here it's assumed that most folks have some citrus planted in the yard. Cruising around town you would quickly conclude that citrus are basically taken for granted, often neglected with plenty of fruit going to waste. Lots of mummies and discolored fruit on shabby looking trees. There's some darn good snackin' to be had for a tall fellow like me that likes to walk through the neighborhood. :)

MrClint, Same deal with citrus and peach trees everywhere here in Fresno. I usually just go knock on the doors of the folks who have huge trees in their front yards, with fruit I like, and ask them if they are "done" harvesting for the year. So far nobody has ever minded me clearing it off. I usually save a bag for them, take as much as my family can eat, and then give the rest to local food closet/church charity places.

sklett: really, don't sweat losing the tree. I've lost some myself and I still struggle trying to experiment with my citrus in different locations around my yard. I almost lost a few more this last summer trying to test if container trees could ever acclimate to full southern exposure without shade (nope). Just during the last two weeks I had them in my patio without light, hoping they'd do fine all winter. But I already saw leaves dropping so I had to back-pedal that plan. There is a fine balance between soil temperatures and light they receive and I was too lazy to attempt figuring it out for my micro-climate.

It's possible your tree dried out. It's *very* easy to do when you bare root and put it in a new mix that has so much peat in it. I've done it, but caught the problem quick enough. So now when I build a mix with lots of peat, I have to keep misting as I go. Otherwise, you could literally pour 100 gallons of water into a bucket of peat and if it drains out the bottom, only half of your mix is wet. The inside is still bone dry. Either you have to submerge the entire container the first time or make sure the bark was well soaked so that moisture transfers into the peat.

Just find some GreenAll bark, open the bag and get it wet, then set it aside somewhere until next spring. You can get a fresh beautiful citrus again when spring arrives. hopefully the bad memories will be forgotten by then and you'll be excited again.

Chris

Now my two bits worth.

Depending on the rootstock you have, the leaf chlorosis, may be more a problem with your water than the soil. Hi pH water usually means a deficiency in the uptake of minerals, and may not be corrected by changing the soil or in soil fertilization. Sometimes repotting only works for a short time.

Invariably it starts with Mg, then Mn,Fe,Zn in no particular order particular order.

If the chlorosis returns soon check the pH with a pool test kit, range 6.8-8.2 avail at big box stores for $4.

I have to add acid (vinegar)to my water for potted plants, sometimes with a tsp. Epsom salts (Mg sulfate) added.

Tantaman..How are you?

You have basically expounded on the very thoughts I also shared...But the one thing I will have to disagree and yet agree with is this:

If a mix is compacted and holding water far too, or if the mix will quickly breakdown further inhibiting proper root health and growth, it will affect root function, and nutrient uptake is limited at best in a very short time..
Therefore, a 911 soil mix is a must..
If the mix is porous and drains very well not affecting proper root function, then the next best step to satisfy the plants need with a good pH,fertilizer,light and temps.

So you were partly right..Thank you and good and your 2 bits worth...:-)

In this situation from what sklett has shown, his soil mix is not very condusive to healthy plant growth..Compost, dirt, and sand do not belong in a container for obvious reasons...

Mike

Hi Mike;

I'm doing a lot better than last year when I was sick from this time till nearly March. I'll be doing great if Florida keeps sucking all that artic air east and we don't get anything below 25 deg F this year. I'll bet thay deny sucking in that freeze but they will surely admit the freeze sucks! We had two light freezes down to 28 deg F already but no killing temperatures yet.

I just got back from the far east. I did not get to see any citrus growing, but we ate a lot of great fresh tropical fruit in Hong Kong and Viet Nam.

Larry