hey jim bob

belated welcome to GW ...

are yours potted... whats the media ...

and frankly.. 7 out of ten on forestry sale babes.. isnt all that bad ...

how bout some pics.. and some info.. if you really want to figure out the plant culture ...

how close to the back door.. do you have these potential forest trees????

and .. you said: I first saw Red Spruce in the Smoky Mountains, where it covers the higher mountaintops

==>>> how does this area.. differ from your area.. the key to success probably lies [lays???] in that answer ....

ken

Actually, I have them in the native soil, which is a silty clay loam. I just dug a hole and put them in the ground like I do any other forestry seedling! As to our climate, we are definitely not the Smokies. We get fairly wild swings - two days ago, it was 83 (A record), and this morning we had a frost. Some years can be cool and moist all summer, others hot and dry. Last year, we had over 60 inches of rain, but the driest July on record. Go figure! Our normal amount is around 45 inches. We had the one of the mildest winters in years this winter. Overall, we have a humid continental climate - it's the swings that make things hard to grow around here. Yet, the spruces don't look any worse for the wear!

The spruce by the back door is about 25 feet from the house; it gets morning sun, and is shaded by the house and a few white pines in the afternoon. I also have some in a patch of woods - those ones look good, too! Our climate doesn't seem conducive, although some years, you can get lucky and have a cool, moist summer while the plants are establishing.

I noticed that there was slight tip burn on a few needles exposed to the winter sun - there was cold periods, but with no snow cover. However, this spring, the buds are breaking fine. I have heard of Red Spruce being used as a landscaping tree in Boone, IA (Someone could confirm this?) from an old (1970's) book I checked out from the library. I have also seen a decent looking specimen at the Morton Arboretum in Chicago. I will see if I can find some pictures.

The link is all the scientific information on Red Spruce from the US Forestry Service. It is interesting to read if you are into the scientifics of trees - thinks like climate, soils, etc.

Thanks for the welcome!

Here is a link that might be useful: Forestry Service info on Red Spruce

Well, if it looks a bit like Norway spruce, I need to grow some! NS remains my favorite spruce, and quite possibly, my favorite all-around tree.

+oM

Red spruce and Norway spruce are quite similar; the only major difference is that Red spruce lacks the pendulous branchlets. Mature trees are fairly easy to distinguish, but young saplings can be quite difficult to tell apart. Red spruce has thinner, shorter needles, and the crushed needles smell quite different than Norway spruce. (Red spruce has a piney scent with a slight apple undertone) Red spruce is reputedly the least adaptable of the Eastern spruces(White, Black, and Red spruce), being more susceptible to pollution damage and heat stress. It grows commonly with Balsam fir in the Northeast USA and Eastern Canada. It is tolerant of different soil types, although it does best on slightly acidic, moist, well-drained soils (What doesn't?). The following link has some good pictures:

Here is a link that might be useful: Red Spruce (Picea rubens)

I've wondered why it doesn't occur in the Lakes States. Maybe just never made it over here yet following the last glaciers?

+oM

It makes sense. Balsam fir, Red spruce's main associate in the Northeast, grows quite prolifically in the Upper Midwest, even down into Iowa. White and Black spruce grow in the upper midwest, also. I would imagine that Red spruce would do just as well in those states.

Exactly, Jimbob. Another example: American beech's range maps used to not include Wisconsin, save for the very eastern portion along L. Michigan. But I can show you numerous locations well west of that where the beech is thriving. I think some of these post-glacial changes are happening in our lifetimes.

+oM

I suppose there's no harm in trying to grow something that doesn't naturally grow in your area - it either grows or dies. It's always interesting to experement when it comes to plants. The few Red spruces I've got seem to be doing well; they put on hardly any growth for the past 2 years, but they had good bud set last fall and are just now breaking. We'll see. I'm just a sucker for the Forestry offers!

I feel ya, J-bob. I'm exactly the same way. I've got a forest full of native Thuja occidentalis-Northern White Cedar as it's known, yet I've planted a number of Green Giants right in their midst. Nothing to do with the Forestry offers, I guess, but the basic impulse to grow another conifer type is there.

+oM

"I've wondered why it doesn't occur in the Lakes States. Maybe just never made it over here yet following the last glaciers?"

It did, it's just called "Black Spruce" there ;-)

Those two are very close relatives, a bit like Balsam Fir to Fraser Fir, replacing each other in their respective areas (and with intergrades where they meet).

Resin

Resin, I have to beg to differ on that last comment. Red Spruce are a distinct species from Black Spruce, and while are similar are NOT the same tree. Also, Balsam Fir are pretty different from Fraser Fir. Even Canaan Fir are somewhat different from their very close relative the Balsam Fir, but they both look much closer to one another than they do Fraser firs. Seeing them in their native habitat, you can (well I can at least anyway) clearly see and tell the difference between the Fraser and Balsam firs. Similar, yes, but still fairly different.

As for the OP, I would say that attempting to grow them in your climate is going to be a bit of a challenge. You saw them on the very highest of peaks in the Smokies. Typically above about 4,500 -5,000 feet or higher that far south. Here in Virginia and West Virginia, they also grow on the highest peaks of the Alleghenys / Appalachians and even a few peaks of the Blue Ride Mountains as well. However this far north they are able to grow at altitudes as low as 3,000 feet, and a few scattered stands can be found even lower than 3K feet, though they are not common. There are several reasons for this. First is the substantially cooler climate, even in summer. Where they grow the climate is so drastically different from most places that on any given summer day, it can be 90 down in the valley under 3,000 feet, but up on the high plateaus/ ridge tops it will be in the 60s/ 70s. Rarely do those ride tops see 90s, and often those ridge tops get into the 30s and 40s at night even in the hight of summer. Second is the mesic type habitat they do best in. These trees need WATER. While growing in standing water will eventually kill them, growing in high altitude wetlands, as well as open mesic environments on the high peaks is great for them. They are some of the closest trees the eastern US has to "rain forest trees" There are sections of WV, along the Allegheny front where they grow still (second growth forest except for one 150 acre tract) in fairly large tracts and numbers, but the environment is very high altitude for the east coast, is MUCH MUCH colder than most places on the east coast, and is much much wetter than anywhere on the east coast as well. Many areas where there are true Red Spruce forest receive almost as much annual precipitation as some of the temperate rain forests of the Pacific North West. The main difference being that much of the precip comes in the form of SNOW for Red Spruce. Were talking where they grow usually gets between about 150 and 200" of snow in any average winter, and has recieved 300 inches of snow annually at times. The annual liquid precip for most of the areas where Red Spruce grow exceeds 55 inches, which is considered the threshold for temperate rain forest in north America. Another thing to note about these trees is that in their native habitat the high mountain ridges they grow on are typically shrouded in coulds for a large number of days annually.

Another thing to keep in mind with these trees is that when they are young, are EXTREMELY shade tolerant, and often will grow slightly better when in at least partial shade while young. In their native habitat, they are EXTREMELY hardy trees given the conditions they face: Extreme cold (20-45 below zero temps), many months of freezing, extreme high winds often on a daily basis (hurricane force sustained winds are common) as well as extreme heavy snow fall and coatings of ice for very extended periods of time ( think months on end).

ALso, the soil make up where these trees grow is usually more acidic in nature.

You CAN do it, but your trees will require special care, and LOTS of water. Relying solely on annual rain fall could do them in, especially if you have a drought year. One more thing to note is that they often will suffer from needle cast when taken outside of their native area. Not always, but it is fairly common. People used to dig them up in the WV highlands, and bring them home to use as landscape trees or wind break trees on farms 1-200 years or more ago, but often they ran into the same problems many at lower elevations do today, especially if you are on the close east side of a large mountain range in its "rain shadow".

That said, they are quite beautiful trees. I personally prefer them to Norway Spruce as they often have a more narrow crown, at least until they get huge. While we can grow them here they are tricky even for us, and were very close to their native range.

I feel very privileged to live so close (2 hours drive) from some of the best remaining Red Spruce forests south of NH / Canada. The trees you saw in the Smokies, while beautiful trees are not true solid Red Spruce forest. For that you need to go to mainly West Virginia , and even parts of extreme western VA. This is where the true Red Spruce forest ecosystem begins, and the stands are usually PURE. The highest elevations of the Monongahela National Forest, ranging from 3K feet, to 4,863 feet on WV's higest peak, Spruce Knob. If you'd like I can post some photos of that area and the native Red Spruce Forest. Just let me know.

Great info, Nova. I would indeed enjoy seeing pictures of some of these stands.

+oM

In the Smokies, the spruce is mixed in with Northern hardwoods and fir. I was down there again last week (I'm willing to drive 7 hours for scenery like that, and we've got plenty of relatives down there), and I noticed that most of the evergreens on the higher mountaintops are fraser firs. Still a nice forest - I like the dark, gloomy, misty look and the smell of balsam.

Also, black and red spruce ARE quite different: Black spruce has foliage about 1/2 the size of red spruce, although a mite thicker. Red spruce has quite distinct thin, 1 in. long needles that cover the twigs all around, similar to a bottle brush. The smell of the needles is quite different from black spruce, too.

Here's an excerpt from the Forestry Service's silvics manual:

"Red spruce grows best in a cool, moist climate. The climate of the northeastern part of its range can be summarized as follows: annual precipitation (total), 910 to 1320 mm (36 to 52 in); annual snowfall, 203 to 406 cm (80 to 160 in); days with snow cover, 100 to 140; January temperature, -7� to -1� C (20� to 30� F) maximum and -18� to -13� C (0� to 8� F) minimum; July temperature, 21� to 27� C (70� to 80� F) maximum, and 11� to 14� C (52� to 58� F) minimum; frost-free days, 90 to 150 (28). Red spruce attains maximum development in the higher parts of the southern Appalachian Mountains where the atmosphere is more humid and the rainfall heavier during the growing season than in other parts of its range (47). Local extension of the range of red spruce, as along the southern Maine coast, is related to marine exposure, which provides a cool growing season and ample moisture supply (8)."

Replace the odd question marks with degree signs.

Here in central Indiana, we average about 45 inches of rain a year, fairly evenly distributed throughout the year. July actually is our highest rainfall month, with about 4 inches of rain. Like I mentioned earlier, our climate is variable, with the occasional hot, dry spell, but we can usually plan on having plentiful rain. Any dry spells usually are marked by 80-90 degree weather (It's not often it gets over 95), but heavy morning dew.

Perhaps Red spruce would do well in Northern IN? I know that more Northern trees grow up that way: Pin cherry, Yellow Birch, and Mountain ash, to name a few.

The following is interesting information on growing Red spruce; Macphail Woods is up in Prince Edward Island, CA., where the climate is much cooler and moist.

Here is a link that might be useful: Macphail Woods Ecological Forestry Project