Complete removal of seed coats for prompt germination

19 years ago

I've had a lot of trouble with sugar pine seeds. I got my seeds, after a long search, from a certain site that has been banned from mention by GardenWeb. The seeds were sent to me in a packet that was mis-labeled "Queen Anne's Lace" but 15 minutes on the phone straightened this out. They'd sent the correct seeds with the wrong label. Then, my germination rate was rather poor: only two seeds germinated out of about 30 (one without stratification, the other after about four months stratification). In addition, the seeds have a remarkable propensity to grow mold, lots and lots of it, I don't know why. This seems to happen even after a dip in 50% bleach, almost as though the seeds have mold impregnated in them by nature's design.

Finally, though, I found an article on germination of sugar pine seeds in the American Journal of Botany (65:804; I can post the abstract if requested). This article seemed to explain it all: "Complete removal of the seed coats yielded prompt germination without stratification." I just had to remove the seed coats completely! It was a little strange though, this author saw 50% germination after a month's stratification (to my http://www.treedazzled.com/photos/blog_images/.

But, unfortunately, devastatingly, this didn't work!!! I denuded seven seeds, stuck them on coffee filters in plastic bags, and have seen no germination after two weeks (whereas the author of the Am J Botany article saw 100% in a few days). My question is: why? Is the American Journal of Botany article wrong? Has anybody ever heard of removing the seed coat for this or other species, and does it work? Are my seeds bad? Does anybody know of a better source for sugar pine seeds?

Here is a link that might be useful: Removal of seed coat from sugar pine seeds

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (14)

greyneedle
19 years ago
Whoa! Did you read the article carefully enough? There could be several tricks involved. Was the article on sugar pines? Seed coat removal for appropriate species facilitates large-scale production. Not necessarily easy.
pineresin
19 years ago
I'd suspect at the least it will need very strict hygeine - the seed shell provides a lot of protection from moulds, mites, and other pests and diseases

Resin
Related Discussions
Cracking the Seed Coat/Shell/Hull
Q
Comments (1)
I am not familiar with your seed, but generally with seed that size with a hard seed coat, I use course sand paper fastened to wood blocks and role the seed between them to wear through the coat. Then when they are soaked the seed will swell indicating the moisture is into the seed. Al
...See More
Seeds Planted. Countdown to Germination...
Q
Comments (8)
Thanks for your responses Xerophyte and Shrubs. You're probably right about the mixed pack. Eventually if I become moderately successful I'll be wanting to stick with specific species. I was interested in the mixed packets b/c they offer a wide array of multicolored lithops. Of all the lithops pics I've seen online, the multi-species trays have appealed to me the most. However, eventually I think I'll want to become more species-specific. I first wanted to germinate the seeds this summer out of pure haste and impatience. But after reading S. Hammer's article that Xerophyte refered me to, I think it would actually be beneficial to start them in summer. Hammer showed that summer germination has proven better plants overall throughout their lifetime. Don't know if that would apply to me down in zone 7 as the climate here is very different from California. In fact, we're breaking records for overall LOW temperatures and heavy rainfall this year. Usually by now we're into the high 90s and low 100s and we're about half way through our yearly drought. But this year, we've literally had rain EVERY SINGLE DAY for the past 2.5 months!!! The local spillway is about to flood over, which has happened only twice in my lifetime and temperatures have been a cool 85 to 95 everyday with a lot of cloud cover. Needless to say, if this once-in-a-decade weather doesn't clear off soon I'll be short on sunlight. Thanks for the tip about bringing the seedlings in at night Xerophyte. You're right b/c it doesn't cool down very much at night here like it does in more arid climates. Usually only a drop of 7 to 12 degrees. -Brandon.
...See More
Clematis texensis seeds germinating NOW - what to do???
Q
Comments (5)
bloomorelse, I put the pot with a bunch of other pots that had plants in them. It got watered by accident whenever I watered the other pots. The pot got full sun most of the time, but was shaded in the late afternoon. carol23, The seed I sowed came from the C. texensis I have growing in my yard. C. texensis is perfectly hardy here and blooms all summer long. C. texensis dies back to the ground every year - it does not re-sprout from the vines produced the previous season. It does this even in climates much milder than mine. You should have no problem with C. texensis in zone 6, in PA. I may take a few seedlings out of the pot and bring them inside and sink the pot with the rest of the seedlings and see what happens. Anyone else have any insight? Thanks, Mike
...See More
Passiflora seed germination: what works?
Q
Comments (10)
Long post warning here, but just my 2 cents worth! Here is what I usually do to germinate passie seeds. I soak them in wet paper towels (placed inside of a plastic shoebox) for a long time (3 to 4 weeks). Change the paper towels as needed, usually once a week. Check them every day to make sure the paper towels dont dry out. Once the soak is done, I rub the seeds between my fingers to remove any slimy stuff, and then rinse them. I plant them in 72 cell trays (sometimes 2 per cell). I fill the cells with screened Miracle Gro potting mix (screened using an old window screen). The trays are covered with a humidity dome so they donÂt dry out, and then placed on a heat mat with a thermostat set to 80 degrees. I have had my best success with this method, and the longer pre-soak times in particular seem to help. That said, I think what happens when the seeds are harvested may be as important (or maybe more important) than how they are germinated. Most people are anxious to see the seeds when they harvest a fruit (its human nature), so they open it up right away and remove the arils/seeds. Then they either remove the arils right away or quickly dry the seeds. My opinion is that drying the seeds too fast may be detrimental. Remember there is a live plant embryo in the seed, and it may not be in a dormant state when it is harvested. So what I do with the fruits is to let them fall naturally from the vine, and then let them ripen further inside (in a cool dry place) for about a month. Then I open them up and remove the arils (they often are still intact with pulp). The arils are placed on a plate and allowed to dry without being mashed. This can take up to a week. Once the arils are completely dry, I remove them, and rub the seeds with a dry paper towel. I do not rinse them until I am ready to plant them (letting the dried dormant seed absorb water may prompt it to break dormancy). I suspect that for a seed to ultimately germinate successfully, the embryo inside the seed has to fully develop (indicated by the seed turning black), and then go into dormancy before (or just after) falling from the vine, and finally encounter the right conditions the following season (soil, moisture, temperature, etc). If I am right about this, then it may be that many passie seeds offered for sale or trade may not have been harvested properly, and may not have been able to go into a dormant state before drying out. If this is correct, then no amount or type of soaking or other treatment will be successful. Maybe this is why passie seeds are so hard to germinate. I think we must try to emulate what happens to the seeds in natureÂthis would be letting them fall naturally from the vine, and then slowly drying. One thing I havenÂt tried is a brief soak in warm (acidic) water just after harvesting (to emulate passage through an animalÂs intestinal tract). That may happen with many passie seeds naturally. A brief period of warm acidic conditions may disable any germination inhibitors that are in the seed coat. However, not all passie fruits are consumed by animals in the wild, so this may only work for some species. And this is something that would have to be done fairly soon after harvesting (for example, incarnata fruits seem to ripen maximally within a few days after falling from the vineÂas indicated by their fragrance). The last thing that I would mention has to do with genetics. In the wild, flowers are most likely to be pollinated with pollen from other nearby flowers. However, the closer the other flowers are, the more closely related they probably are (genetically speaking). So I suspect that pollinations that occur from flowers at greater distances produce more genetically diverse and viable seeds. As an example of this, I have collected incarnata fruits from a location in south Louisiana that has a good number of vines along a ten mile stretch of road. Despite the vines being loaded with fruit, the seeds germinate poorly. However, when I used pollen from a Louisiana vine to pollenate a Pennsylvania incarnata, the resulting seeds gave me a 100% germination rate within one week (using my standard method above). So I think that seeds that come from genetically diverse parents are much more viable than those from genetically similar parents. If you pollenate 2 vines that you both grew from seeds that originated from the same fruit, then they are probably genetically very similar, and perhaps not very viable. So my advice is to let those fruits fall naturally, then let them further ripen inside, then let the arils dry naturally (without mashing them). When pollinating species (non-hybrids), if possible use 2 vines from different geographical locations. I hope this helps! Mark
...See More
SilverVista
19 years ago
I have no idea what site it is that is banned, that you ordered from. But if the company can't even label their packets correctly, who is to say that they are testing their seed for viability? You might have better luck by contacting a reputable seed dealer like F.W. Schumacher, or if you are a member of the Conifer Society, check to see if someone has donated these seeds for the annual seed exchange.

Susan
TreeDazzled
Original Author
19 years ago
Thanks for all these thoughts!

greyneedle, I read the article as closely as I could, and it was on sugar pines, but frankly the description of seed coat removal was skeletal at best. I figured it couldn't hurt to try and just started cutting. Interesting to know that seed coat removal is used for large-scale production of some species. Do you know of any examples off-hand?

Resin, I agree that hygiene may indeed be an issue. I lost one of my two seedlings because it was simply overcome by mold.

Susan, THANK YOU for the pointer to F.W. Schumacher. That other nameless company is definitely a bit shady. Believe it or not I hadn't heard of F.W. Schumacher until this moment. Looks like they have it all. Apparently I can buy sugar pine seeds by the pound (2100 per pound). If I start with 2100 seeds, even 1% germination should give me more seedlings than I can possibly handle! Unless I get a bigger porch...or a divorce...
treeguy_ny USDA z6a WNY
19 years ago
TreeDazzled,

I tried sugar pine seeds from Schumacker last spring. I only purchased a trial packet so I only had a handfull of seeds to work with. I placed them in moist milled sphagnum moss in my fridge crisper drawer for the designated amount of time recommended by their website. Also, I cleaned the seeds off from the ridiculous amount of mould once a week or so. No removal of seedcoat, scarification, or any special treatment. I believe out of about a dozen or so seeds only about two didn't grow. By this past fall I had about 10, 8" sugar pine babies! Sadly, the rabbits ate them all during the winter months. I was quite upset to say the least. Good luck with Schumacker, I've ordered from them a few times before with excellent results in all instances.
TreeDazzled
Original Author
19 years ago
Thanks for the encouragement, I will definitely try Schumacher.

Nice to hear that somebody else noticed the mold on these babies. I've never seen anything like it. Anybody else ever seen seeds grow such copious amounts of mold, so quickly?
pinetree30
19 years ago
Mold can develop on any seeds not rinsed in a fungicidal solution. You had no control over these seeds between harvest and purchase, so you don't know the storage conditions. Some of the seeds may have been DOA. If you should ever again go to the ridiculous lengths of removing seed coats, do it under sterile conditions. But if so-called seedcoat dormancy is present, it should be sufficient to crack or pierce or abrade the seedcoat. Such seeds may have been collected prematurely and may be worthless.
TreeDazzled
Original Author
18 years ago
Just wanted folks to know that I found another example of breaking dormancy by removal of seed coats, in

Journal of Integrative Plant Biology. 47(1). January 2005. 38-49.

The abstract says, "The most effective method of breaking dormancy was to remove the seed coat totally." The authors were studying Garcinia cowa, whatever that is. I'm pretty sure it's not a conifer!

My major error seems to be trying this technique with a species that apparently isn't so hard to germinate. I'm trying sugar pine again with seed coats intact and longer stratification.

Shoot
pineresin
18 years ago
Garcinia cowa is in Clusiaceae, same family as Hypericum. I'd not consider any info about it as being reliable for conifers too!

Resin
TreeDazzled
Original Author
18 years ago
A late note...

In the seed forum, wanna_run_faster found that he had to remove the outer coats of coffee seeds, in order to get them to germinate:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/seed/msg0621381423828.html

Here is a link that might be useful: FINALLY figured out how to get coffee to germinate!
kevin_5
18 years ago
That is how I germinate Kentucky Coffeetree seeds. I put a nick in the extremely hard seed coat, soak them in water for a day or two, let them swell up, and then remove the seedcoat. They promptly germinate in a week or so.
The_Sculptor
18 years ago
I am in Aussieland, but many of our natives require bizarre intervention to the seed cases in order to be allow germination. The most common being bushfires, particularily for acacias(wattle) and banksias (bottlebrush). I grew several hundred Tagastase (tree lucerne - not native) a few years ago, and recommendation to germinate them was to abrade the seed casings with sandpaper, creating a hole in the casing,then to soak onite in water poured over them at close to boiling point. It worked. Germination was about 90%
Gail
turtlelakediane
17 years ago
I have been trying for a long time to find a source for Sugar Pine seeds or seedlings. Can someone PLEASE direct me to a source?
treelover3
17 years ago
Please read the above thread.

Complete removal of seed coats for prompt germination

Comments (14)

greyneedle

pineresin

Related Discussions

SilverVista

TreeDazzled
Original Author

treeguy_ny USDA z6a WNY

TreeDazzled
Original Author

pinetree30

TreeDazzled
Original Author

pineresin

TreeDazzled
Original Author

kevin_5

The_Sculptor

turtlelakediane

treelover3

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

Complete removal of seed coats for prompt germination

Comments (14)

Related Discussions

TreeDazzledOriginal Author

TreeDazzledOriginal Author

TreeDazzledOriginal Author

TreeDazzledOriginal Author

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

TreeDazzled
Original Author

TreeDazzled
Original Author

TreeDazzled
Original Author

TreeDazzled
Original Author