Bettyn, I have New Dawn, Darlow's, Crepuscule, Jaune Desprez, Parade, Awakening, Fields of the Wood, and a few other climbers with clematis growing through them. On the estabished (large roses, all of them), I went about 2-3 feet from the 'main cane' of the climber and in the case of Crepuscule I actually planted the clematis up under it last spring and by this spring, it is all the way to the top and blooming all through it. I have 3 clematis in New Dawn and one is planted as far as 5 feet away from her base but her canes were long so the clematis found it quickly and was at the top in a season or two. The other two are planted within 2-3 of her as I planted them very early on (10 years ago, LOL). MOVING DARLOW'S ENIGMA. No, I would not plant them in the same hole. I would do two holes about 2-3 feet apart. You might have a problem with one or the other and not want to disturb the root system of one. That is probably not going to be the case, but just in case and I am basing this on what a friend told me yesterday. She wanted to move her White Dawn to the center of the garden but when she planted it, she put a Niobe in the hole with it and she was afraid she would kill Niobe and she did not want to do that because she wanted to make a "semi-wall" with Niobe where it was with some other clematis. That might/might not be a problem for anyone else but thought I would bring it up since she just asked me about that yesterday when I was looking at her garden.

I see what you mean about brown leaves until the plant reaches the fence, so I think you might be right about the heat. I think I might try a mounding clem between two of those and see what happens. I think no one can really tell you what will happen and this may be a time for some experimentation on your part. Are you sure the clems you have planted are only 8" apart? It looks like more to me, but maybe the photo is misleading. I've never overwintered clems in a pot in our zone unless they were buried up to the pot tops in soil, but when I've done that, I've had very good luck. Again, you may have to try and see what happens, but I wouldn't do it unless you can sink them somewhere for the winter.

I don't have a current pic, but here are the two I potted and started training on espalier. They have rain "hats" from the expected heavy rain. South espalier is Bearss Lime, North espalier is Gold Nugget. Both standards. The middle is Thornless Lime, which will naturally stay small. I kept them mobile while I played with positioning against the wall and ensured there was enough sun for them to thrive. You can see the neighbors house 10' East of the wall. My house is 10' West but has a gable roof instead of the hip roof on that house. That makes the roof taller at the peak in the middle. I thought I would address some other points. I'm in SoCal at the base of the east-west San Gabriel Mountains on the Los Angeles - San Bernardino County line where it is hot and sunny. Mostly sunny in the winter also, where we probably have more sun intensity times hours in the winter than the upper midwest does in summer. I have been unable to get any citrus espaliered against a south facing wall to survive as they get cooked in the heat. The standards are doing better than the semi-dwarfs as they have a central trunk and the semi-dwarfs are trained by the grower into a bush. It is easier to get the standards growing flatter against the wall. If you try to plant the typical semi-dwarf 10-12" from the wall, you are going to have pretty much destroy the plant. I would check the foundation of your wall. I was able to get the trunks of these 10" from the wall because that wall was built in 1970. The block wall on the other other side of the house was built under the current requirements in California so has a foundation that comes out 1' from the wall. A 2' wide planter will be fine for small citrus but you need to give them more surface area along the wall and make sure the soil is not too dense. Citrus need some air to the roots. As you can see from the digging, I removed all the rocks and added a bunch of pumice and turface.

I really appreciate all your suggestions. I will look into each. Thank you! I'm not sure he will let me plant a hedge. I think he wants something that he don't have to deal with when I move out down the road. Ive been here for 4 yrs and plan on staying another 3 or so :p Cant do elderberry. Although I take the supplement when sick, I wouldn't try harvesting myself since some of the plant is toxic and all if it is toxic to dogs and I have a dog :p Carol I laughed at " it will take down a fence" I believe you though :)