Joe,

Sooner Plant Farm is an exceptional nursery with an awesome reputation and a large loyal following. If you'll review their reviews on Garden Watchdog, I think you'll see that they really care about product quality and customer service.

You can learn all about Smart Pots from the link on Sooner Plant Farm's website. However, I will post the link below for your convenience. Smart Pots are not RootMaker pots, but accomplish similar things. I think if you'll just do two minutes of research, you'll have a good understanding of the differences and similarities.

You'll find nursery stock from just about any nursery will have some degree of rootbound-ness. I also think you'll find the quality of the stuff from Sooner to be very good on average.

Here is a link that might be useful: Smart Pots

My order this past spring included (1) 2-gallon maple, (2) 5-gallon oaks and (1) 1-gallon dogwood.

The maple was severely pot bound but manageable. The dogwood was average but satisfactory and both the oaks where the most pot bound plants ever encountered on my part. The goods news is that they do have exceptional service and reimbursed me for the oaks. The oaks where from Greenleaf so they are mostly to blame.

I asked about a few other trees and the owner basically told me I'd only be happy with smart pots. I was set back by that comment as he indirectly admitted that he isn't up-potting all his inventory. I intend to place an order this upcoming spring for a couple smart pot trees to see what results I get.

In the end I'd recommend them to at least try them out.

For same strange reason, they sliced up smart pots so I ended up having to repot them in rootmaker containers. I know it's ironic... Overall, it's not a bad place to buy trees from. I thought smart pots helped their reputation but still receiving sliced smart pots were annoying...

I've learned that repotting trees to larger pot size is a lot of work. Perhaps the owner of Sooner Plant farm is still trying to find the most cost efficient way to do it.

Whaas, were you able to slice and/or untangle the maple?

Lou,
IMHO, the.slicing is to improve drainage in the Smartpots. I actually had a root problem or two in a couple of them due to the tendency to retain water in the bottom of them. I have since started made about 1 inch around the bottom so that excess can drain more easily.

Joe,
I've place two orders with 5' sized plant orders with them, both in smart pots. In both cases I was very happy with what I got. But I would stay with smart pots with anything that gets large i.e. large maple/oak. Something herbaceous or shrubby, then i wouldn't worry too much about it.

Arktress

This post was edited by arktrees on Thu, Dec 13, 12 at 7:15

Their prices seem a bit high to me.

For native trees I always use MailOrderNatives, however folks up north may not find their plants cold hardy enough.

Ken, all valid points, however, when we have access to things like Rootmaker and Smart Pots, and, growers are aware of the issue, you'd think they could take a bit more care to ensure it minimizes the rootboundedness as much as possible. Some seem do to that, others couldn't care less.

I do get weary about container grown stock. I can take care of rootbound issues, within reason, if it's on the outside of the rootball, but what bothers me is, what's UNDER it? Does it have a coil of roots from the original liner pot that I won't see?

if it's on the outside of the rootball, but what bothers me is, what's UNDER it?

==>> and that is a prime argument for buying smaller stock ... and BARE ROOTING your stock ...

there really is no reason NOT to bare root anything under 5 gallons.. even if you buy the pot in june.. and have to hold it in the pot.. until the next proper planting time.. which would be fall.. when the plant is dormant ...

i have been known.. to have 25 pots around.. by fall ..

there is a spring planting season.. and a fall planting season.. and if you buy things between june and sept 1st .. you HOLD THEM OVER.. until you can plant them properly ... NO EXCUSES ...

and if you insist on buying ball and burlap .. you 'tag' the plant int he nursery.. and set up delivery .. during the next planting season ...

instant gratification isnt as easy with trees and conifer ...

and if you cant time it out right.. pay for the best warranty you can buy ...

ken

ps: for instant grat. with pots.. you plant it 'pot and all' .. in the heat of summer.. taking into account carp soil.. and insuring the pot drains ... and then pull the pot out in october.. and surgerize it. and plant it in mother earth ... [new word there]

Ark makes a good point that the shrubby plants are likely fine but the plants with faster growing root systems might be a bit tougher. I actually don't have as much concern with pot bound shrubs just because they are easily replaced if they don't work out long term. You want a 30' tree to be structural sound versus a 6' shrub, not a big deal.

Joe, I was unable to completely bareroot but with some tearing and cutting I was able to get some roots out. The root flare was ok, which is the #1 priority.

Ken, sometimes the culivar someone might be after is in limited availability and therefore smaller sizes may not be available. Here is a pic of the oak that died. What you see is neglect, not a tree growing naturally. You should have seen the pancake of roots. There was 3 gallons of soil on top of it in the container. I can't find the damn pic to share.

{{gwi:497561}}

I've purchased a tree from them this past fall with good success so far. It was an Acer palmatum. 4-5' tall in a smart pot. I got it on sale for $30. Overall I liked the smart pots. It had a few tangled roots... but nothing even remotely compared to a plastic pot. A tree this size in a plastic pot would have been severely root bound. The only downside to this kind of a pot is that you do have to cut the pot away... it won't just slip out. You will have some roots that poke their way through and back in.

I think when they start getting to large for the smart pots, they put them on sale for half off in hopes to sell most of them. It would be pretty hard and time consuming repotting smart pots. It's just a personal preference, but if I had the choice I would choose a SP over a plastic container any day.

Arktrees,

There were large slice on the side of the smart pot where media mix falls out. It was just a mess. If it was at the bottom, I'd understand the reasoning for better drainage but not a big slice on the side.

No disagreement from me Lou. I bought two Caddo Maples from them that had the same thing. Was well beyond excessive. I was only suggesting probable reasoning.

Arktrees

Hey friends, it's Brian with Sooner Plant Farm, I just found this discussion and thought I would help if I can. I'm a firm believer in growing trees only in root enhancing pots, be it Root Maker, Smart Pots or other. I have been growing trees for about 30 years, and have grown in every way possible in, field and container production. Without a doubt some trees should only be grown in RE (root enhancing) pots. I prefer Smart Pots because they are soft and do not scrap the trunks of other trees if stacked for truck shipping. As for the difference in root control, I don't see much difference if the tree is not left in the pot to long, then the root maker will tend to lose some of the root pruning benefits, where as the Smart Pot continues to keep any roots from circling. Both are 100% better than standard slick sided plastic pots. We Sooner Plant Farm have finally planted 100% of our tree stock in RE pots this past season, it has taken about 4 years to afford it. It is much more expensive, but I have to stand behind what we sell and I cannot ignore the facts. However we do purchase plants for resale from other farms and unfortunately those plants are grown in conventional plastic pots. I wish we could grow all our own trees but economics prevent that.
Regarding some comments about the large cuts in the Smart Pots received from us, we cut those just before shipping to help the customer remove the pot to plant. No one has ever commented to us about the cuts so I was unaware of the confusion. It is not for drainage purposes. I will be rethinking that procedure. I'm happy to see the discussion about this, feel free to contact me I'm happy to help. Good Growing

Here is a link that might be useful: Smart Pots

Thanks, Brian for the info!

Just so we know what to look for - are there specific species you order from other growers, or is it supply/demand based?

I've ordered several trees from Sooner. Fire Dragon Shantung Maples, Keith Davey Chinese Pistache as well as some others. I too was disappointed with the cut Smart Pots. Some of my smaller trees (JMs etc) were going to be left in the pots to test locations before committing to a planted site. The slit bags meant I had to re-pot them ASAP. An additional cost and minor annoyance. I got the impression they had slit them to STRAP them to the shipping box. I doubt the slitting is needed for plant removal and the soft side makes it fairly easy to loosen the soil.

To Sooners credit. All the 5 gallon smart pot trees I ordered for in-ground planting were very nice with good roots. The smaller JM (Glowing Embers) was a good size as well. I think the best "value" from Sooner are the 3 Gallon Smart Pot trees.

I'm gonna take this thread and combine it with the other one currently going here re: specific types of containers, so if things seem a bit disjointed, they may be.

any discussion of specific types of containers that does not include a discussion of price points in incomplete.

and don't for a moment tell me you guys aren't interested in price.

sure, I can choose to use a specific type of container. that choice carries with it a variety of considerations, all of which influence the final sale price.

for instance, the size of the container, the height and the diameter. you got to fill it. the larger the container, the more it takes to fill it. Think that stuff's free? so I could choose to use a container with an 11.5" height, or a 8.8" height. if the diameter of the container can be assumed to be 14", how long before I save myself the cost of a cubic yard of whatever media I am using fill it?

type of container. blow molded or injection. rootmaker or not. grow bag or not. all have certain kinds of costs associated them. and then, you still have to fill them.

blow molded are usually the cheapest, followed by injection. rootmaker type pots are usually produced by the injection method, with an added premium.

so how much do you want to spend? the difference in price between a blow molded pot and an injection pot is usually small enough on any given size that method of shipping maybe more important, because the injection molded pots are usually sturdier.

but the premium that comes with a rootmaker style container, whatever the style, whoever makes it, is great enough I'm not going to view it as a cost of production I can afford to swallow. It's going to demand a premium price. it's going to be sold to people who view themselves as more educated, discerning and demanding. but also fully cognizant of price. How much of a premium are you willing to pay for this?

and are you not going to buy something grown in "conventional" pots if the price becomes attractive enough? yeah, you don't have to answer that one.

if you ask questions of the grower before you order, there is one question you better ask, and it's more important than all the others where containers are concerned: How long is the plant in that container?

How long does a plant need to be in a container to be decently rooted? How long before decently rooted becomes potbound? and at what point is it so severely compromised that it is best put on the compost heap?

Illustration: I typically order approx. 6' bareroot trees and put them in a #10 container. My plan is to pot them in the spring, let them grow for about three to four months before I consider them rooted in and saleable. And if they are still around at the end of next year, they get moved. I will not winter them a second year.

When I order in #10 container grown, the trees I have grown are almost always undersized. Pull the pot off, and it's easy to see why. My trees have been in that can at least one year less, if not more. Same variety, same size can. And even if the trees I grow as outlined are half the price, I'll sell every one of the others first. every time.

so tell me...is the condition of the root system really that important?

I would argue it is. and I think most of you would agree. but if it is that important...why is it so hard to sell?

and if I am so careful about time and schedules, does the extra cost of a certain type of pot become justified? if it leads to increased profit, yes. if it's just that much more expense, no.

six years ago, I had a hard time allowing my newly potted containers to root in before selling them. Demand was that high. Factor in Lehman Bros, blahblahblah, and everything changed. I went from having a hard time allowing my cans to sit for three months to having a hard time selling through my inventory in thirty months.

any questions why container root systems have shown problems in the last few years? not saying they were perfect before, just saying they weren't as bad. type of pot or length of time in that pot? sure, you may get an extra season in a certain type of pot. but you also get more handling, more fertilizer, more chances to damage the product, more rodent control...

I have a much more aggressive schedule for selling my product than many. I defy anyone (if you sell these, here's an opportunity to make a believer, and a customer) to demonstrate that choice of container will provide a better root system when you start getting into 4+ years in a pot.

I think(!) online tree shoppers have a higher tree IQ in general than the (ir)regulars who visit the local nursery. They might see the value of smart pots and pay a premium for them. I know I do. If these smart pots make better root systems and ease establishment for the trees/shurbs sold, this would also minimize the return hassle that has to be a bigger PItA than a local return. I know I personally would choose a 6' in a smart pot over a 10' in a smooth sided container if the prices were the same. I would also pay a small premium for the smart pot if the trees were identical in size. I would NOT have done in the beginning of my tree addiction, however. I simply didn't know any better and if I were planting in better conditions than we have had the last 2 years and my success rate was better, I still may not appreciate planting stock grown in smart pots as much as I do now.

Locally, as long as the trees last beyond the warranty period, most nursery operators are satisfied. It seems a coin flip whether the nursery selling the product actually cares if your trees make it longer than a year or two as long as they get their $$$.

Of course, if all nursery operators were as diligent as strob with their product, the uncertainty factor of product quality when strolling in and browsing a new nursery would be much much less.

John

I don't give two hoots as to the pot type. Sometimes that gives nurseries an excuse to overwinter them longer in the same pot which is a crock.

There is a local nursery here that overwinters plants in the same pot for up to three years and it just ticks me off. Once the plants start to show signs of severe stress they just blow em out for 50% off to unsuspecting customers. Thats just the way it goes. They buy a plant with no warranty, it dies and now they have to buy another plant. By then they learn their lesson or become discouraged all together.

I believe these "smart pots" have more appeal because pure laziness is rampant in the industry versus the other pots being inferior per say. They is no denying the facts of rootmaker but at the end of the day if the nursery is up potting properly you aren't dramatically changing your chances of success. If costs and the economy are changing your business dynamics you need to change your business model. People have been burned too many times by these excessively pot bound plants, especially online. Otherwise you just have to risk your first couple of purchases and find the right fit.

I can take two online nurseries that are diligent about up potting their stock. Broken Arrow Nursery and Dan's Dwarf Conifers. They have successful business models in which they have the right inventory and push the right amount of stock to be up potted on a regular basis. That is just one key factor to generate repeat business.

strob,
Most of us had to go through a learning period, including myself. I have always LOVED trees, have a science background, and I made many of the same crap mistakes as most everyone else. That was how I found GW. Trying to learning how to do things better and deal with clay soil. Joe Q Public doesn't have those advantages even. They see and a tree and think "it's a tree, how complicated can it be?". Even if they are told otherwise, most won't believe it. I have tried to educate many people about care, planting etc. Most don't listen, and most of their trees die. Some of them then come back and listen, many do not. With that in mind, I have to give you credit for doing your best for all that involved. You have to be profitable to stay in business, and that means selling those plants while keeping the customer happy. Most focus on the selling part, and only the happy part as long as the warranty lasts.

whaas,
Yes good plants can be grown in all these containers. The problem is potting up, etc adds costs. Not only the costs of materials and personnel, but some plants will fail, and personnel PROPERLY potting up have to be trained (and that training enforced), but it takes them away from other tasks. Then you have plants that look too small for the pot they are in, and uneducated customers will think they are being ripped off. Frankly, they are too much of the business to ignore in a retail setting. The advantage of root pruning pots (whatever type) is that they will lengthen the viable time in those containers, so that these extra cost are not incurred. They also provide a longer window of viable plant. Of course they are much more expensive themselves (I have bought plenty of them). IMHO, I hope the premium for those containers decreases, so that is is more economical to use them.

Arktrees

Ark, I have to disagree. You actually have to up-pot sooner. Since you get stronger, more vigorous fiberous root growth the roots mat on the walls and its very difficult to fix without major root removal.

There is a gentlemen that sells small young trees locally as a not for profit organization to encourage tree plantings in the community. He does not up pot due to his business model (he doesn't get paid). He had more complaints from folks purchasing overwintered plants in root pruning pots vs traditional pots.

Wow, quite a topic!
I agree 100% in a perfect growers world all plants would be only sold only when perfectly rooted. In reality, very much due to the major change in the economics, ALL growers have had their world turned upside down these last several years. Many have not not survived and the lucky, I say lucky because most of the ones that did not survive, it was there market that was lost, not because of poor business skills. So the lucky ones like myself, all production schedules were disrupted, as well as the schedules of my suppliers. So please believe me when I say we have all felt the sting. The good news is the overgrown stock is almost gone in the industry. I want to say we did our best to only sell the best quality, but I'm sure we missed perfection along the way. The biggest problem all tree growers face is producing consistent quality. Growing shrubs and perennials is easy, you can prune hard and trim roots to repot and keep them marketable. Trees are much different, and the costs are much greater, the window of salability is always limited. Due to the patent protection laws (which I agree with) on 90 % of the plants we offer, we cannot propagate and we have to buy many plants in quantities larger than what we typically sell. This leads to having an over supply of a variety, per year. So figuring out what to do with the extras is a challenge. We figure we double our money when we sell 100% of a variety. If we throw away 50% due to no sales or over grown, we at best break even. When grown in a RE pot that window is widened. Providing only the highest quality, is in our best interest period, however the reality of all agriculture crops is quality is variable from year to year, due to so many factors I wont begin to list them.
So having a tool like a RE pot that allows a grower to cut loses, while providing a improved product, is a great thing for customer, both in quality and reducing grower losses. If a law was passed regarding quality control for trees I don't think any tree nursery could survive long, or the cost of a tree would be so expensive few could afford to buy one. So what was said about Knowledge being King is true. Experienced buyers should question the supplier, this is not only good for the buyer, it gives the grower the opportunity to properly describe the quality , so it does not come back and bite him. One more thing to keep in mind is acconding to some reports the average landscape is replaced every 20 years. Of course this is not always the case, but because of this the public has not demanded only #1 quality plants and low cost growers remain in business, and suck the life out of the ones that try to grow quality in a uneducated market.
Happy New year & Good Growing
Brian

I'm gonna split hairs and piss people off.

Online tree shoppers think they have a higher IQ. In reality, they are still people. And people are easily duped, in particular when they think they are intelligent.

Trust me on this one. I have volumes of three ring binders dedicated to this principle. Indeed, we have an entire segment of our economy that hinges upon this truth. It's called marketing.

laziness is rampant? !!?? ?@#$ &*%# I'd rather take payment in bananas. %&*? I'm gonna go cool off before I say what I really think.

strob,
Don't know why you are bent out of shape. I see nothing here that is an attack upon anyone. It's a discussion, with and exchange of opinions on the merits of different grow out techniques. There is nothing personal in any of it. I for one am happy to have your feedback from a growers side. Obviously you and Brian are trying to balance all factors, and that is appreciated. Hope both of you continue to contribute.

whaas,
I'm of the option that the process of the tips being pruned, then new growing tips being regenerated further back, followed by growing out, and multiple rounds of repeating that of the process, will be much slower than roots growing to the edge of a slick pot, and circling around said pot without hindrance. The end pruning, followed by regeneration of a new growing tip further back is likely to take several weeks for each particular cycle on a particular root. Think how long it takes to root a cutting. While rooting a cutting is not the same, it does show that it takes some time for new roots to grow out. What's more the volume occupied by the time those roots circle is smaller, and therefore theoretically takes less time to fill in most cases. But I also know of no study to confirm this. If you don't agree with this line of reasoning, then no worries. :-)

Brian,
Thanks for the grower feedback. All of us in these forums can use a dose of the reality from a growers perspective. I hope you stay around and continue to contribute.

Arktrees

pure laziness is rampant in the industry .... really!

You should try working in a nursery for a couple days.

Frank

After strob's rant, I feel I should clarify my feelings about smart pots/root maker pots vs. smooth sided containers is based off my EXPERIENCE using both and evaluating the root systems of each at the end of the growing season and then monitoring the individuals performance in the ground afterward. Not based on marketing. Based on results.

Once again, strob, just because you up pot on time DOES NOT MEAN every nursery operates in a similar fashion. I have purchased a sugar maple and a smoketree from two different local nurseries that were so pot bound, I estimate there was To say people that shop online for specific cultivars vs the genpub that doesn't even know what a 'cultivar' is and goes to the local big box store to buy a 15' magnolia in a 5 gallon container have the same tree education level is pretty hilarious! :D thanks for making my day.

John

John...ya really think I don't know that not everything happens the same way at every company? Talk about a hoot.

but do you also really think there aren't those companies that really do care, but find themselves pinched between possible bankruptcy and making payroll one more time that make choices that in a perfect world would never happen?

On one hand, this kind of thread is good. Robust discussions about techniques and methodologies benefit everyone. and yeah, the nursery industry is rife with disagreements. on just about any subject you can imagine. and that's about arcane, esoteric topics that make no difference about anything.

On another hand...

each and every one of you (regulars on these forums who use mail order to get as many varieties/odd varieties as you can) should build a shrine to the folks who developed container growing and offer a sacrifice each and every day. This (container growing) is the mechanism that has allowed the nursery industry to become what it is today, enables your habit, and has allowed many deserving genera to be distributed quite widely.

To say the nursery business is a business that refuses to accept change is a statement that ignores reality. Few industries are as dynamic, with as many different facets as the plant world.

Within one generation of the development of container growing, it went from peat pots and metal cans to the traditional plastic can, to the initial development of rootmaker pots. resistant to change? or wanting to see results that translate into sales before they jump on board?

Quality matters. I base just about everything I do on that premise.

But not as much as it should. Price will trump all other factors. Period. And even if you really should know better, you'll bite. Then you'll find a way to blast the company for unfair, unethical practices. Especially if you should have known better.

as re: laziness in the industry. I have a simple response to that. bull#$it. you can have my job for as long as you can last.

as far as educated consumers...I learned long ago that the most educated customer is the next one. each and every time. I have more than my fair share of stories of customers who just don't get it (like the lady it took half an hour to explain how to use your finger to check soil moisture). and it's easy to stump me, just make a list of the fifty most obscure Japanese maple varieties you can find reference to.

but I also have stories of people who could care less about most cultivars who know more about gardening in their area than any college professor.

and I have stories about people who chose to believe what they found online over what I told them (not that I am infallible, but if I am going to back up what I say a) a warranty and b) the hope of getting future business, you better believe I have a vested interest in getting it right). I even have stories about people who did the same thing twice, because they researched it online, and the internet disagreed with what I had to say. but you gotta respect someone who is willing to come back and tell that tale.

I even have stories of an individual who graduated with a bachelor degree in horticulture that once told me a certain plant was a possibly diseased dogwood. Considering the plant under discussion was a miss kim lilac...yeah.

so I assume nothing when it comes to what you may or may not know.

as re: superiority of any particular kind of container, my contention has never been one is better or not. My contention has been, regardless of type, shape, style, or construction, that length of time in that container is the most important factor, and that as long as business is slow and margins are slim, people will make the decision to sell an old plant at a lower price rather than put forth the effort to resize it or to swallow the loss and compost it.

and there is absolutely nothing funny about that choice.

Strob,

I agree with you about how hard most (real) nursery workers work. I agree with you about the time-in-container v type-of-container thoughts. BUT, I still think there are ways in which many in the industry could be considered lazy. The resistance to change and complete refusal to stay current by a large percentage of nurseries and even growers is something that I run into constantly. YOU may not fall into those categories, but, believe me, many many others do! As for the extreme pot-bound nursery stock being a proper business decision (if that's what you mean by "absolutely nothing funny about that choice"), I would have to partially disagree there too. I see it more as poor planning and possibly even a poor business decision (depending on the degree of pot-boundness, etc, of course). I guess what I'm saying (and what I'm sure you would agree with) is that the industry, as tough as it is, still has plenty of room for improvement and could probably benefit greatly from that improvement, and, the laziness may not refer to lack of physical work.

BTW, for anyone skimming through this thread and not reading everything, we are NOT talking about Sooner Plant Farm being lazy. The conversation has drifted in different directions.

"...make the decision to sell an old plant at a lower price rather than put forth the effort to resize it..."

I believe this is seen as the "laziness" mentioned earlier. Perhaps an unfair label but the extent to which it is stretched to fit the word is variable. Some cases are laziness and some are due to financial restraints be it materials, labor, etc and some occur as some combination in between the two.

I keep reminding you that all companies do things different because you take the position of all companies in the tone and wording of your responses. I, personally, would love to visit your nursery and would feel very comfortable buying your stock if you are as diligent up-potting the plants and honest with the condition of plants that have been potted too long as you claim. Smooth sided plastic containers can be an excellent holdover for a plant, no ifs ands or buts about it! It is the unknown condition of the roots before it is pulled out of the container that worries me. I have not had much experience with plants held too long in root enhancing products but I can comment on ones I've purchased that were held too long in plastic pots and destined for the compost pile. I know the 1 year comparison of plants in root enhancing pots versus plastic pots, in my experience, heavily favors the root enchancing pots with respect to root density of fine feeder roots and the amount of feeder roots present. I fail to see how a DECREASE in these fine feeder roots produces an equivalent specimen business cost be damned. That is not the debate with me. I want to know what is best and I want all the plants I purchase to use them before I plant them.

I'm surprised bboy hasn't chimed in about container culture...

John

At face value my comment probably came off as reference to physical labor. Brandon has hit every nail on the head (ie planning, understanding the market, forecasting supply and demand, etc) so he saved me time in explaining my position!

It also wasn't directed to anyone here in particular or meant to belittle the industry per say. I'm sure you gentlemen put your heart and soul into your business. I can admire that.

At the end of the day you are 10x more likely to find an extremely pot bound plant than one that is not. I can deal with encircling roots, thats the nature of container grown plants but when you get root matting thats considered neglect.

I can't tell you how many nurseries these plants are from over the past couple years. There is alot of "I don't know what to call it now" and there is alot of good too. I'm not your average folk installing a few trees over a few years so I've had quite the experience working with a multitude of nurseries throughout the US (mainly West coast, East coast and Midwest). Everyone has had their share of quality issues but only a few are consistently good.

This post was edited by whaas on Wed, Feb 13, 13 at 22:16

The root-pruning system really is much better if it is done properly. Woody warehouse nursery in Lizton, IN, has been using it for years. They start seeds in March in rootmaker flats, grow them until they're about 6 inches tall, transplant them to 1 or 3 gallon root pruning pots, grow them for a year, and then pot them into 5 or 7 gallon root pruning containers the following year, and keep up-potting them using root pruning pots. I've been by there a number of times - Quite an impressive place! Their plants grow amazingly fast - A good, 1-inch caliper tree after 2 years! Not bad, I say!

I would say that air root-pruned trees and shrubs are much better, even if you have to pay more. I figure, "Heck, why not?" A good root system is key for a healthy, long-lived tree or shrub.

Thats a big difference between the 3-4 year old trees I see in 1 gallon pots. Those root systems are a disaster.

Some of Song Sparrow's conifers are 4 year olds housed in a 2.5 qt container, those are beyond brutal.

Wish I had a nursery like you mentioned around here like that. However I can get good quality b&b stock and I'm usually impressed by McKay and Johnsons container stock. Of all the places, Steins garden center is fairly decent because they don't overwinter a single plant. They've gotten damn good with inventory planning and forecasting supply/demand will offering a diverse selection. The stock they buy for A&R spada is hit or miss. Sometimes its terrible other times its beyond impressive.

if the question is why are nurseries slow to catch on to new ideas...

anyone remember spinout?

once heralded as the new thing to cure all the ills of container growing.

now a bump on the road of horticultural history. just one of many.

so is the industry to jump on the bandwagon of every new product that comes along?

but here's the deal...

the industry is made up of people. just like the rest of the world, there are early adaptors, there are researchers, there are frauds, and stick in the muds. And somewhere in the middle are the vast majority of folks, honest people just trying to make a living.

so riddle me this. in thirty years (+/-), the company behind rootmaker has only grown. This despite the legacy of Whitcomb, which is perhaps the most mixed legacy in the history of horticulture. And I know how beloved he is here. so thirty years of successive growth is evidence of...what, exactly? a potential customer base that resists change? refuses to acknowledge that problems exist or look for solutions?

or is the only acceptable answer that unless everyone agrees with you immediately that the rest of them have to slow on the uptake?

the nursery business, as an industry, is slow to change. this is not up for discussion. it is a fact. I have never stated or implied otherwise. and I think this is not a bad thing.

anyone from Missouri?

here's the deal. and this is the one thing that just is, regardless of business, regardless of location, regardless of industry. it is as true of Wal-Mart as it is of acupuncturists as it is of mom and pop garden shops: do not tell me you would spend more money on a certain type of product. Spend it. or not.

In the course of this discussion, I stated early that the businesses that have adapted root enhancing containers, be they rootmakers or grow bags, have done so as a means of product differentiation and competitive advantage. Support those businesses if it suits your fancy. Or don't.

Then we get to the part that really gets testy. You (and I don't mean you, I mean people) place value judgments on someone without understanding why they do it. It's something people do. It's much easier (and fun) to lambast someone for something than to understand why they do it. Doesn't mean they are going to listen or care.

So do you just want to rant or do you want to work on effecting change?

"In the course of this discussion, I stated early that the businesses that have adapted root enhancing containers, be they rootmakers or grow bags, have done so as a means of product differentiation and competitive advantage. Support those businesses if it suits your fancy. Or don't."

No nursery that I have been to in Arkansas uses anything BUT plastic containers. So it really is all or nothing. Now, I can say, if I walked into a new nursery, I would be more likely to buy something because solely because they use root enhancing pots! That would really get my attention in a good way especially after buying and planting a lot of stock from the local nursery. I have not planted a single tree from this nursery, and I've planted around 30 from this place, that was not at least somewhat pot bound. I have had much better luck getting plastic potted plants from online sources that are not nearly so pot bound surprisingly enough.

What would you suggest I do in this case? Ask the nursery to change their ordering? Unfortunately, since they are the only shop in town, they get all the business, commercial and residential, and won't listen to any requests I make. I can't even get them to try and find bnb trees for me in fall and spring. It's what they've got in the lot or nothing. Their loss, as I've spent around $500 and driven over an hour away to get what I want from someone else. Not to mention much more that I have bought online instead of asking them to order it for me and, I'm sure, even paying a little extra for their trouble (which should just be "cost of doing business"). Perhaps, I've been turned off by my experience with the local nursery and stereotype others nurseries as not giving a crap about me or the longevity of my plants. But I hear about this happening at other places to other people, too so just how bad is it?

Otherwise, I don't know why you refuse to admit, despite numerous testimonials and evidence to the contrary, root enhancing containers are superior to smooth sided plastic. Put the operational cost aside. They produce more feeder roots and reduce the amounts of circling of roots. I have not found any circling roots out of one yet, actually. And businesses like soonerplantfarm have made the switch. Yes, I have ordered from them before. No one says it has to be overnight, but at least show me some effort (directed at any local nursery that wants my repeated business)!

John

Hey Guys, sorry it has taken me so long to get back. I got up off the couch and got busy repotting all my trees into larger plastic containers. LOL :). I hope you can take that statement in fun. It is obvious, you guys take quality serious, as do I, and should all business owners. However, I can assure you, I did not choose to use any type of root control pot, to somehow trick, deceive, or create some kind of marketing gimmick product. I know firsthand the benefits that root pruning offers to the product, both regarding growing at the nursery and for the customer. Using RE methods reduces my profit, period. 90% of my customers have no problem buying plants grown in plastic pots, is it because they are uneducated or don't care? I don't know that ratio, and I�m not going to poll them. So why do I spend all the extra money committing to grow every tree I grow,(not sell) in a RE pot, Why, because I know it produces a better product than plastic pots on my farm, and within my business model. Business is finding a niche that you can fill, cost effectively, and hopefully in a field that you are passionate and care about. There is a market for all types of quality. Cadillac customers, shouldn�t expect that manufacture to cheapen the quality so they can afford it, just as you can't expect one of the lesser costing car manufactures to put the best parts on and charge the same. To me it is about offering the best quality I can to fit my customer demand, based on how much they are willing to pay, and selling enough for me to remain in business. I do it because it is the right thing for me to do! Well this will probably be my last post,I'm really not into this, I truly would rather be working on the farm, Potting Trees!
I have enjoyed the comments and my eyes have been opened,
God bless all of you,and
Good Growing!
Brian

I've been trying to fugger out how to respond without being too pissy, so I'm going to tell a story.

A few years ago, after taking my career path on a veering course that prompted a move halfway across the country, I found myself browsing through a local nursery, looking at the plants and the prices.

Then I made a series of comments that re-altered my concept of spare time.

I can grow a better plant for less than you paid for that, I would say.

Then I stuck my foot in my mouth: And I can prove it.

So if you think you know how to build a better mousetrap, or grow a better tree, or anything else, there is nothing stopping you.

So yeah, you win the argument.

Whas,

I once had a Shantung maple that stayed in 5g Rootmaker container for 2 years.

When I got around to planting it, it still had excellent root system. I don't think you could get away with smooth sided container after 2 years.

The downside to it is that there are a lot of large holes on rootmaker container where media mix get washed out leaving open space around it. It can get hard to get watered properly when water just drains out without effectively watering entire root system. In some spots, it was pretty dry no matter how often I water it.

I much prefer roottrapper bags. Best all around I've ever tried.

{{gwi:497562}}

I was browsing Sooner's website today. A LOT of their stuff is out of stock. That could either mean they're sold out because they got a lot more business than anticipated this spring, or, they're going under or downsizing… Does anyone know?

I've noticed ALL mail order nurseries seem to be running low on stock this year. (in other words, all the ones I deal with!)
I think it's mostly the economy picking up. Although horticulture will continue to seem more and more arcane in an era of smartphone attention spans, there was probably a fair amount of pent-up demand because landscaping is something people can easily put off. I noticed a neighbor talking to his landscaper about some work a few days ago. A friend of mine just bought a house after hemming and hawing about it for a few years. etc. etc.

I stopped looking at Sooner since they started inflating prices on their plants and shipping costs.

Here is a recent article from a local nursery talking about shortages in the trade.

During
the mortgage market collapse in late 2007, which lead to the recession
in 2008, everyone suffered, including nursery and landscape businesses.
Businesses had to make adjustments to compensate for the decrease in
sales activity. Many good people lost their jobs. A number of nurseries
went out of business. And most of us in the green industry had to find
ways to save money.

The
poor economy had a dramatic effect on the plant supply stream, creating
huge excesses of plant materials. Nurseries were sitting on large
amounts of plants because builders weren't building and shoppers weren't
shopping. There were lots of trees of a good harvestable size, but
fewer people looking to buy them. And when people aren't buying trees,
there aren't funds to plant new ones for future harvests. Most, if not
all, nurseries had to destroy large parts of their plant inventories
that weren't sold as expected and many drastically discounted their
stock. These actions were necessary for survival.

As
we enter into the spring 2015 season, we are all happy that the economy
has turned around, but the industry is still seeing ramifications of
those survival tactics in the form of nursery stock shortages,
especially trees. The major tree whip (starter tree) producers that
supply nurseries have sold out of many varieties in the last two years.
So the field growers of balled and burlap trees, who had decreased
planting during the recession, are having difficulty fulfilling their
needs to build up their inventories now.