There is an alternative to genetic studies for determining ancestry of a puzzling cross. I'm interested in hardy citrus, and I keep finding parallels between citrus and roses. Both include tropical, subtropical, and temperate species that have been crossed all kinds of ways. The example I have in mind is the Yuzu, a tart citrus fruit prized by Japanese cooks with a loose sweet edible skin. It is much hardier than most citrus. A number of crosses have been made between Citrus inchangensis and Satsuma resulting each time in something remarkably like Yuzu. It's true that when you make a cross so wide that the result is ovule sterile, as seems the case with Banshee, that you seem to get a lot of sports. We have assumed that the variations in Banshee are sports, but what if some of them are the same cross repeated? What could we try crossing to see if we can get Banshee again? The candidates I would consider would be our various native species and damasks, centifolias, gallicas. When you are out in your garden in spring, if you want an excuse to spend a bit more time there, you might want to do some deliberate pollination by one of these species onto one of the others that you know makes hips. Mark the blossom stem in case it makes a hip. If it does, be sure to include what the pollen was if you are doing several crosses. Experts go through a lot of trouble to keep the bees away and to get ripe pollen, but I think this is a fine job for some of us worthless lackadaisical wannabees to do our stuff. All we want is some seed from one plant that makes seedlings that look nothing like the parent. If you don't mind sowing some virginiana seed in hopes that you'll find one extremely different seedling, it won't matter all that much if the bees got to the flower too. (Although it might be better if the flower can't find anything except the weird foreign pollen you added.) If a couple of years from now someone on this forum says hey, I crossed this and that and one of the seedlings is looking a lot like Banshee, we will all sit up and take notice. Then others will try the same cross and maybe we'll prove, us simple amateurs, something that has had us wondering for a long time. One or two of the big name rose people who pay attention to something besides HT's will eventually write it up in a book and we'll all have to find some other mystery to solve.

"if this accurately represents tree hardiness, a number of trees deserve colder ratingscolor>" Let's look at which trees those might be.... From experience (three winters) I would say Picea breweriana is quite happy in my zone -- versus the Z6 designation above. Especially this year, the new shoots are extra long ! By contrast, I would probably move Pinus thunbergii from Z6 to Z7 -- no end of grief with this one (yet). My Taxus baccata 'Fastigiata Aurea' is doing a lot better, despite being rated the same Z6. That Z8 rating for Sciadopitys verticillata seems totally out of whack with what I've been told recently on this forum, although I have no experience with it myself. Z7 for Picea sitchensis seems a bit overblown too.... and probably likewise for Cephalotaxus harringtonia. And Pinus contorta rated Z7?! ....give me a break ! Not easy to find a reliable list, that's for sure.

Thanks for your comments everyone, I am having the time of my life watching the changes each day. Jo, I have 74 so far although some are duplicates and some in the ground which are surrounded with weeds and am embarrased to show lol. I am not sure if that Undulata is medio or uni, hopefully someone might let me know. Am trying to convert the sister lol, she has a 3/4 acre garden to plant from scratch, will start her with a few pots of old reliables. James, yes I ordered a few from bali-hai before I found out about the dutch guys from you guys and probably will give him a miss in future as his plants are so small also the exchange rate is does not help, I am converted to Mr VDT! I do have a lot of space but as I expand it is such a lot more to maintain but cramed with hosta, weeds will have no where to grow, I need some staff lol. Thanks for looking folks, the camera will be busy this year! I will Probably make it over 100 this year, but I probably won't aquire more than Mocc lol. Denis P.s. Don, you being the resident Guacamole expert/addict lol, Is she slow to get going in the spring? she is up but not doing much yet, thanks.

Many on your list are right, Jayeanne, but not all so we are still playing the game! I'm adding 2 letters today "C" and "Y." _ l o r _ n c _ , South Carolina _ d n _ , Kansas _ _ _ l _ _ , Louisiana C _ _ r l o t t _ , North Carolina G _ n _ _ _ , New York _ _ _ _ s o n , West Virginia C _ l _ n _ , Ohio _ l _ c _ , Texas J _ _ n , Nevada L _ _ r _ l , Montana _ s _ l _ y, Michigan _ l _ _ _ n d _ _ _ , Minnesota L_ _ r _ l , Delaware L _ _ , New Hampshire _ _ t _ _ n y , Connecticut And so sorry to all, I forgot to include an "L" in the name for Ohio when I added the "L's". It's in there now. Jayeanne, I hope you feel better soon and hopefully the doctor will think everything is healing fine. If it's a spider bite, those are scary! For our swap: Vina and Jayanne will send to each other. (Jayeanne has received and has mailed to Vina.) Heidi and Katie will send to each other. (Both have received.) Jeanne will send to Annie. (Annie has received.) Annie will send to Janine. (Janine has received.) Janine will send to Jeanne. (Jeanne has received.) Have a great day! Jeanne