From reading the Vintage catalogue, 'Mlle. Cécile Brunner' has two sports in commerce: 'White Mlle. Cécile Brunner' and 'Rita Sammons' which is a slightly deeper pink. It also produced the larger shrub sport 'Spray Cécile Brunner'.

Vintage also mentions 'Lady Ann Kidwell', 'Red Sweetheart', 'Pasadena Tournament' and 'Topaz' as belonging to this special "poly-tea" class. All are currently available on their online list.

Thank you, Jeri. Lady Ann Kidwell was the one I was trying to remember. And thanks to Ispahan for doing the right search on the Vintage site.
I just knew there were more, but I went to helpmefind and struck out.
So, I asked here, and voila!

It sounds as if LAK would be a good transitional rose in a long border.

It's a lovely, shapely plant. I think you'll enjoy it.

Jeri

I also have three very similar Tea polys. Rita Sammons, Etoile de Mai, Spray Cecile Brunner. I love these roses and their scent.

Perle d'Or is a little charming Rose indeed! I also love the idea to put togheter many similar Poly-Teas. Does anyone can say more about 'Ravensworth', who's a golden yellow sport of PdOr?

Cass,is it Spray CB the same Rose as 'Bloomfield Abundance'? 'cause Bloomfield Abundance isn't a sport of Cécile Brunner, and honestly I don't understand how it could be possible that nurseries here in Europe have such a mess with them... they are entirely different!! But very often happens that you, happy gardener, put a little charming Cécile but you'll fight all your life with a huge (gorgeous) octopus!!

I've found in a garden here a Rose very similar to Cécile Brunner, but quite large in all parts: flowers, foliage, and bush. Flowers are not only larger but also dark coloured. Maybe is it the Rose known as 'Mme Jules Thibaud'? I've taken some cuttings, and wait to see the flowers next spring.

Another little Rose related to CB is 'Jenny Wren' (Cécile Brunner à Fashion (floribunda, Boerner, 1947)), in Austin's catalogue.

Ciao!
Maurizio

Here is a link that might be useful: comparison of Poly-Teas,

That was a great link Maurizio. I have PdO on a wish list, but may add the other two flanking it.

Oh wow, I had no idea that 'Perle d'Or' produced any color sports. Does anybody know where to obtain them?

Hi, Maurizio,

The original 'Bloomfield Abundance' appears to be lost for now. We know this because of genetic testing of so-called 'Bloomfield Abundance' from both the USA and Europe, 'Cécile Brunner' and Cécile Brunner, Climbing. These three roses are virtually identical genetically. Because they don't look alike in habit, they seem to be a very specific kind of mutation, or sports, probably of the original 'Cécile Brunner'.

No one would ever call Cécile Brunner "little" in the San Francisco area. It easily grows to two meters in height all over the area and was planted in hedged between houses. It usually reaches a meter and a half in width.

Confusion of labels is so common. When a label in a famous rosarium is lost or misplaced or when a famous nursery makes a mistake and distributes a rose far and wide under the wrong name, this kind of confusion is common.

I do hope you found Mme. Jules Thibaud. Perle d'Or is a wonderful rose here, and a pink sport would be most welcome. I sometimes wonder if some of the larger Cecile Brunner plants are this rose...

Ann, I do love these roses. Lady Ann Kidwell, Red Sweetheart, Pasadena Tournament, Rita Sammons, White Sweetheart. Etoile de Mai may be my favorite.

Lisa

Here is a link that might be useful: Etoile de Mai

Where does Opal Brunner fit with these roses?

A few comments: Lady Ann Kidwell can eventually grow to the size of the side of a garage if left to its own devices. A specimen in Glendale, CA did just that before being hacked to the ground by a non-rosarian. LAK also has long, elegant buds that open up to a quilled form of bloom not unlike the bows on gift boxes. Another rose that shares that trait is the Kordes polyantha, Topaz--a lemony or buttery yellow before fading.

Rita Sammons was discovered by the Clarke Bros in Portland OR where it was used by local florists to make wrist corsages for proms for over 25 years--until the mid 1950's when it was finally introduced into commerce. My own bush of it after ten years is a fairly steady five feet in height. In the case of Mlle Cecile Brunner, there is a moment in the early stages where the tea form appears to be edging toward the Classic HT shape--although it never does; it seems to share that trait in particular with Princesse de Sagan (a China).

In my garden Red Sweetheart blooms singly rather than in clusters, a trait shared by Pasadena Tournament. This trait is also shared by some of the oddities produced during the interregnum of few polys in the 70's and 80's like the Delbard red Bordure Vive and the Buisman orange Emmeloord and Vincent Van Gogh.

NOT from the same lineage as the tea/polys is Sunshine (NOISETTE LINEAGE), which produces what could be entered in a rose show as a look alike for Perle d'Or, in the form of small clusters of red/gold buds that lighten to orange/yellow and finally lemony yellow blooms.

JimD

That's very interesting about Cecile Brunner growing to 2 meters height in the SF Bay area. I was at someone's house down here in Los Angeles and there was a magnificent bush easily 6 ft tall by 4ft wide with what looked like Cecile Brunner flowers bursting all over. Except that I kept thinking CB is small, right, so it must be some other rose? It was simply magnificent! and also a very shapely shrub that would look handsome out of bloom, too. I like Marie Pavie a lot, too, and it can get big if it's very happy. Mine hasn't yet, but it's a bit chilly here for it.

Most of the really big Cecile Brunners and Perles d'Or we've seen have been in older cemeteries, where they haven't had the "benefit" of harsh annual pruning.
Likewise that rooftop-tall Lady Ann Kidwell JD mentioned was allowed to grow without being chopped down every year.

Aren't they beautiful when they're grown like that?

Jeri

Looking around for info for older polyanthas I came across this VERY old thread which I found very interesting. ΒΤW is anybody growing Jenny Wren? Not very old but from the descriptions it sounds like she's in the same class form wise. Coming from two very famous parents I wonder if it got the disease resistance of the older one or the health issues of the younger one..

I love the 'Caldwell Pink' I got from ARE. They are such perfect little discs of bright pink, looks like they were cut with a cookie cutter. Though I got it mid-summer it has several dozen blooms this fall. In the picture the blooms have faded from the very bright pink they open with.

I must be the one single person in the entire rose world who actively dislikes Lady Ann Kidwell. I've seen it in person and in pictures and I think it's horrid. Shapeless, weird, spiky flowers in a too-loud shade that I can't imagine anyone wanting in their garden. Okay, now that I've gotten that off my chest I feel better, at least until someone tells me they couldn't care less what I think, they LOVE it. Fair enough, fortunately no one is forcing me to buy it.

I don't really like Lady Ann Kidwell either. The color doesn't bother me, but I don't like the way the petals quill to that extent, creating those points. It does remind me of Christmas bows, and I think some people like that about it.

On the other hand, I think that picture of Ghislaine de Feligonde is yummy. To each his own...

I agree, Ghislaine is beautiful. I really like roses that have different shadings, and it's often those in the apricot color range that seem to do that.

Ingrid, Lady Ann Kidwell, as a full-size shrub, can take your breath away. The blooms nod and dangle, swaying with the breezes and, though not "classic", have a pleasing form. She is relentlessly cheerful in the worst of heat waves and is among the most frequent bloomers in my entire collection. She also, in certain weathers, has a color of purple that is as good and true as any in the rose world. The foliage is clean. I had to have her after seeing the wonderful specimens at the SJHRG, which look great every single time I go there (no small feat for a rose). I love her, but I do have her over in the "bold color" section, where she holds her own!

I'm one who dislikes too much color in flowers unless the flower does it very well. In roses, I mainly have pinks, whites, apricots and a few reds. I do however love Tropicana and have one all by itself to be the magnificent bright coral that reminds me of the lipstick my Mom wore in the mid sixties. It is big bold and a flower all about itself. Everyone who knows me well questions that rose, but sometimes you just have to admire something for doing something you really hate, so well!

I was given a china rose, Arethusa, which has petals similar to Perle d'Or