Some books speak with great authority on the subject do a search Paul Barden Damasks he has a few interesting things to say

I am with you on this one. Damasks are about as bad as Centifolias. From what I have read everyone finds Damasks to be "mysterious". Of the three you listed none are considered to be pure Damask what ever that is. G.Thomas says that a Damask ought to have grey green Downy leaves-eg. should be fuzzy on the top of the leaflet. It ought to be relatively prickly and bloom in clusters. The receptacle is usually long- not round like a Gallica. They should have a distinct scent. One of lifes more irritating things is to have one of the experts say "this rose has obvious -------- characteristics" and then not say what that characteristic is. It does no good to walk around the garden writing down the characteristics of the roses you have in a particular group because the next book you read will throw half of them out of that group. In any case Graham Thomas says Omar Khayyám and Trigintipetala are true Damasks and they are nothing alike....sigh.

patricia

Actually in many books you can read about confusion between Damask Celsian and Alba Amelia and the possibility of this is being the same rose. I used to grow both of them, Amelia from Pickering and Celciana (I think from Vintage but not 100% sure) and they sure very identical to my eye. I tried really hard to find any difference.
They also both blackspotted badly which is usually more the case with Damasks here then Albas. Evenn though some Albas also get BS.
Ispahan is the healthiest damask of all I ever tried.
Olga

The genetic analysis by Iwata et al found that Kazanlik, York & Lancaster, Autumn Damask, and Four Seasons White Moss (all from Peter Beales) were all related as mutations of a single original. There are probably others in this group-- Botzaris? Kazanlik? Omar Khayyam is a self-pollinated damask seedling. Madame Hardy is a hybrid.

The weirdest classification is moss. It's like classifying objects as two-dimensional, three-dimensional, or purple. At least one moss rose is pure damask and others are pure centifolia. Genes for mossing stem from the damasks.

There is little doubt that the Damasks have a close affinity to the Gallicas; the more I delve into the complex lineage of roses, the more confused I become about them. As a mere grower of roses I can only follow, or attempt to follow, the rules laid down by others.

~~Peter Beales in Classic Roses

Admittedly not very helpful but at least you're in good company.

MichaelAT

Fascinating stuff Michaelg. I knew that the Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseaux was Quatre Saisons(Autumn Damask) because mine reverted. That Kazanlik and York and Lancaster are also sports is surprising. I have all 4 so must compare. Has moss been discovered to be only from Damask? There seems to be two different types-the Damask type hard and prickly and the Centifolia sort softer and thicker. What was Mme Hardy a Hybrid of?

patricia

I thought damasks came from Damascus from the time of the crusades. And China's from, well I forget now. lol!Albas i think are hybridized from R. canina and damasks. I think they are classed by the experts who are familiar with the scents,foliage,historical records, period paintings, old rose catalogs, etc. Of course some albas might be listed as damasks or vice versa. If you had a german shepherd and crossed it with a poodle would you have a gs or poodle? Or do you create a new breed everytime you cross something? Of course with roses you could have several breeds from one litter(rose hip).

patriciae,

In the era of Mme Hardy, most seedlings were open pollinated and tended to be classed with the female parent.

Mossing could come from more than one source, since various species have glandular sepals. But one of the species ancestors of damasks, R. fedtschenko, is slightly mossy. Centifolias are thought to have damask parentage.

The first mention of damask roses in England is the mid-1500s, so they probably arriived after the crusades. According to Iwata, the prototype damask originated as a natural hybrid in ancient times, perhaps in Iran.

Ah, yes. I had a sudden recall last night of the article in Rosa mundi(HRF)summer 2007 about the genetic background of Damasks. I got up this morning to reread it. I had incorrectly remembered that it refered to Damask Perpetuals specifically,but missed the statement that the genetic profile of Summer and Autumn Damasks were the same.
R. gallica, R moschata and R. fedtschenkoana. I know that everyone does not accept their reading of the genetic profile but I suspect that as more roses are profiled we are all in for some surprises.

patricia

Interesting discussion. While I have a general impression of a what a gallica should look like, and what an alba should look like, I have no such mental 'picture' for a damask or a centifolia. (other than 'old') Sounds like most of the roses placed with these two classes will turn out to be complex hybrids, and their classification therefore somewhat arbitrary.

James, I think rather there is a distinct group of true damasks, and then some other roses called damasks that are hybrids of true damasks and x. The same is likely true of centifolias. Hybrid teas are a genetic hodgepodge, but they are fairly uniform because of a hundred years of breeding with selection toward an ideal type. But true albas, damasks and centifolias each stem from a particular unique hybrid, often by mutation, and haven't been subject to much breeding-- some of them are nearly sterile. Many hybrid offspring of these don't clearly belong to a class, but were just assigned a class name.

What is/are the true centifolias? Centifolia major and its sports? What are the visual keys for centifolias, as opposed to damasks?
thanks again

Been debating this point for some time myself. So many of the roses that have been put with the Centifolias are gradually being moved to other classes.
So from my notes
Plants tall and arching, thorny with mixed prickles some large and curved others bristly.
Leaflets are soft and pendant(hanging downward) glandular on the edges and deeply serrate
the ends of the leaflets generally rounded more than pointed.
sepales often foliose and they do not reflex
flowers large, wafting fragrance quartered nodding
they are early to lose their leaves
In my main bed of Gallicas Damasks and Centifolias the Cents stand out for being somewhat disease ridden and gawky in growth habit-they are more open and airy looking-fewer leaflets less healthy looking but the flowers are outstanding. that would be like Bullata, Reine des Centfeuilles and Rose des Peintres etc
The hybrids mix in-you cant tell them from the rest.
This is in my garden and you might find it different where you are. I will be interested to hear what others find.

patricia

Re Amelia and Celsiana: they have been submitted for gene mapping recently by Swedish experts who believe they are the same rose. I'll report the results here when I have them.

Appropos of Amelia and Celsiana, how do those who theorize they are the same classify them? Is it/are they alba or damask? I never got the classification of Celsiana as damask.

I always thought that Amelia/Celsiana was an alba....

I'm no expert or rose historian but when I think of the DAMASKS I think of Autumn Damask. That incredible fragrance is my olfactory template for what Damask should smell like. Isn't "typical" Damask growth habit supposed to be big and arching but less dense than the Albas? Anyway, I'll let you folks figure the details out.

But AUTUMN DAMASK is what a DAMASK should smell like.

Patrick

James and Max, I think you are confusing Celsiana (damask in any available source that I am aware of) and Celestial (alba). I never saw Celsiana classified as anything esle, it is always damask. Alba Celestial is very different from alba Amelia and damask Celsiana.
Olga

olga, right,no confusion here, at least no more than usual, amelia(alba) and celsiana(damask) are the look alikes. Don't think anyone has posted anything above re celestial, which does not look like the other two.

my Q is: if celsiana and amelia are one and the same, is it an alba or a damask? Can't be both....

To my eye, Celsiana is a definite damask - downy foliage (alba's are relative smooth and somewhat glaucous stemming from R. canina),tapered hip/receptacle, thorny (albas almost or entirely without thorns) - fragrance typical damask - alba is lighter and somewhat sweeter.
Mme Hardy a damask hybrid (with alba) - alba bloom on a damask bush - thorns, downy foliage and all.
Centifolias are lax plants - the flowers are two heavy for the stems (with the exception of such things as Petite de Hollande) leaves are more circular than damasks or albas, thorns are mixed. Fantin Latour, classed as a centifolia, is actually a hybrid - a bit like a non repeating bourbon. Same with Juno. Smoother foliage than true centifolias.
The fact is that divisions are made by man and the rose doesn't necessarily recognize them.
Typical is Koenigin von Danemarck - alba leaves, thorny plant, flowers a deeper pink than most albas - a damask cross?
Gallica have spines rather than thorns, round receptacle, rough, rather dark foliage, thin stems, shorter, more upright growth. But the you get something like Charles de Mills where the blooms are so heavy the stems arch over like a centifolia.