To my eye, Celsiana is a definite damask - downy foliage (alba's are relative smooth and somewhat glaucous stemming from R. canina),tapered hip/receptacle, thorny (albas almost or entirely without thorns) - fragrance typical damask - alba is lighter and somewhat sweeter. Mme Hardy a damask hybrid (with alba) - alba bloom on a damask bush - thorns, downy foliage and all. Centifolias are lax plants - the flowers are two heavy for the stems (with the exception of such things as Petite de Hollande) leaves are more circular than damasks or albas, thorns are mixed. Fantin Latour, classed as a centifolia, is actually a hybrid - a bit like a non repeating bourbon. Same with Juno. Smoother foliage than true centifolias. The fact is that divisions are made by man and the rose doesn't necessarily recognize them. Typical is Koenigin von Danemarck - alba leaves, thorny plant, flowers a deeper pink than most albas - a damask cross? Gallica have spines rather than thorns, round receptacle, rough, rather dark foliage, thin stems, shorter, more upright growth. But the you get something like Charles de Mills where the blooms are so heavy the stems arch over like a centifolia.

Jessica, You do realize that any roses you grow from seed are unlikely to bear more than a passing resemblance to the plant whose seeds they came from? In other words, you will not get a replica of the original plant. It will be pink, and it will be a once bloomer, to be sure, but the bloom is unlikely to be more than vaguely reminiscent of its parent. If you want copies of 'La Ville de Bruxelles' then you need to propagate it by cuttings or bud grafting, not by seed.

Here is a quote from an article published in North Dakota Quarterly in 1932: "... in 1744 the family moved back to western Virginia which was then on the outskirts of settled territory. On this trip, Nancy Clarke Bouldin took with her a slip of her favorite damask rose. After nearly two hundred years this rose is still growing on the Virginia homestead which remains in the hands of the family and Mrs. Heath was the proud possessor of a slip from this rose which is now a fair sized bush." Fannie was very conscious of naming plants correctly. She learned botanical latin so that she could be sure that she and her correspondents were discussing the same plants. She exchanged letters regularly with T. Hay who was the Superintendent of the Royal Gardens in London and had many connections in the U.S. I even came across a letter from Vita Sackville-West - totally cool.

There IS an "old rose scent". Roses express it in many permutations, that is, with different additions of other scents in more or less quantity. The old rose with the purest "old rose scent" that I have experienced is unidentified from an Indiana farm that was passed down through a number of generations. I gave a rooted cutting to Christopher. I hope that it survived. I am not adept enough at rose classification to say what class it belongs to. It is a once bloomer, medium to light pink, button eye, with about a 2" diameter flower. It is true that the perception of scent differs from person to person yet anyone I have seen who has smelled this rose has been enchanted. I have grown Tiffany, Fragrant Cloud, Blanc Double de Coubert, Rose de Rescht, Reine des Violettes, Souvenir de Claudius Denoyel, Crimson Glory, Chrysler Imperial, Munstead Wood, Proud Land, Autumn Damask (pink), Comte de Chambord, Jacques Cartier, Zephrin Drouhin, etc. and sniffed wild rugosa roses on a beach (clove scent, wonderful but not "old rose"). Also, I have noticed that many of the c. mid 20th century roses with decent "old rose scent" such as Crimson Glory and Chrysler Imperial develop a less pleasing scent as they age. Does anyone else sense this as well? Cath P.S. If you really want to smell the "old rose" scent, buy a vial of true attar of roses. Put the stopper right up to your nose. That medicinal scent is not it. No rose has a scent that concentrated. Then slowly move the stopper away from your nose in increments. You will know it when you smell it.