Maybe, maybe not. Back in the early nineties, Limberlost Roses had Autumn Damask from Pickering and it was once flowering. Not sure what it was determined to be, but even the best sometimes mess up. Kim

Vintage carries "Pickering Four Seasons Rose", listed in the Portland (Damask Perpetual) section of the website. According to Vintage, this rose reblooms well, rebloom "good". Better in fact than its Autumn Damask which it only rates as having "fair" rebloom.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: Pickering Four Seasons Rose

Pickering Four Seasons Rose was one suggested identity for "Benny Lopez," (Found, Santa Barbara, CA). Grown side-by-side, they proved to be different.

But PFSR has been around for a good long time, and appears to be a pretty nifty rose in its own right.

Jeri

'Autumn Damask' likes to be sprayed. I am not sure about Pickerings version. It looks like it may be a better choice. Let us know your take.

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Royal Perpetual'

As Melissa says, Pickering Four Seasons is considered to be a Portland damask, more compact than the common Autumn Damask(s) and with better rebloom. As far as I know, it has not been identified with any known Portland, but is a unique clone of unknown origin. It has a good reputation, but I have not grown it.

Thanks everyone for assuring me that grafted PFSR might be a better choice for my small garden due to its size and flower production.

But now I am very confused as which rose it is. I emailed Pickering and they told me it was "Autumn Damask" with a link to HMF page of Autumn Damask.
Do they sell/had sold Autumn Damask AND PFSR? Or what they believe is Autumn Damask is actually PFSR?

Jeri:
While we are on the topic of damasks and portlands, why Grandmother's Hat has been classified as a HP and not as a Portland?

I learn a new thing about roses every day.

FJ

Here is a link that might be useful: Link from Pickerin's email

'Autumn Damask' and 'Four Seasons' are traditional synonyms. Like some other names, they have been applied to more than one rose over the years. Pickering thinks they have the "real" one. Others think Pickering propagates a unique clone.

Does Pickering's version have an Accepted Exhibitor Name? If so, what is it?

Thanks Michael for explaining that Pickering's clone is different than the common one.

Zack:

According to HMF, it may be Royal Perpetual. Vintage names it as Royal Four Seasons.

Here is a link that might be useful: PFSR on HMF

FJ -- I'd never have thought of Grandmother's Hat as a Portland.
To me, it's not -- "Portland-Ish"? :-)

Tell you what I think it is REALLY like ...
I think it has in some fashion to be related to "Ragged Robin" ('Gloire des Rosomanes').
Just look at the two plants together. Look at their habits, and their foliage ...
Gotta be related.

So, maybe it's one of those roses like "Ragged Robin," that doesn't seem to fit neatly into any slot??? God knows, there're lots of them.

But, maybe it's an early HT?
Maybe it's one of those things sort of between HPs & HTs?
Only The Deity Knows. :-)

Jeri

FJ, it is interesting that you posted about this rose at this particular time because it started me wondering. I have been waiting to order 2 roses from Heirloom in Oregon--both currently out of stock and your post triggered some memories. One of these roses is Quatre Seasons (aka Autumn Damask) and the other Rosa damascena semperflorens. What piqued my interest with your post is that the photo of Four Seasons Rose on Pickering's website, http://pickeringnurseries.com/web_store.cgi?cod=15fsr looks very much like the photo of Rosa damascena semperflorens in the 1996 catalog for Heirloom. Also the description of the Pickering rose mentions a date, 1819 which is the same date used in the description in the Heirloom catalog, 1996, page 11 which reads:

"Rosa damascena semperflorens (Autumn Damask): Very fragrant, old-fashioned blooms of medium pink (darker than 'Quatre Seasons') on a spreading plant with grey-green foliage. Repeat blooming. 4-5 feet. (Before 1819). Photo pg. 101."

For comparison is this entry for Quatre Seasons:

"Quatre Seasons (Rosa damascena bifera) The rose of four seasons (also called Autumn Damask, Rose of Paestum, Pompeii Rose). As you can see from its many names, this rose has been around for a long time. We chose the name that is used in England. There is confusion as to whether this and R. damascena semperflorens are the same. Our two varieties are definitely different. 'Quatre Seasons' is the oldest repeat-flowering European rose. Its gracefully beautiful, double, ruffled blooms of rich clear pink are blessed with a wonderful wine fragrance. A spreading bush with grey-green foliage. Repeat blooming. 5 ft. (Ancient)"

Is it merely a coincidence that both Pickering and Heirloom refer to 1819 in their descriptions of Four Seasons Rose and Rosa damascena semperflorens? Where did each of them get their roses with these names? Did Pickering get theirs from Heirloom, or Heirloom get theirs from Pickering, or maybe did both originate from some other common source???? Or maybe they are different.

The Heirloom website does have a photo of Rosa damascena semperflorens, a photo different than the one used in the 1996 catalog. The web picture appears darker and more red (but still with pink tones). See the Heirloom website for comparison shots of their varieties. Try opening browser windows for Vintage (Pickering Four Seasons Rose), Heirloom
(Rosa damascena semperflorens), and Pickering (Four Seasons Rose)--plus refer to the old Heirloom catalog (if you have it!) and compare. Makes one wonder. Maybe I need to order from all 3 places and grow them side-by-side.;)

Btw Vintage lists the color as crimson, Pickering shows deep pink, and Heirloom says medium pink.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: Rosa damascena semperflorens and Quatre Seasons at Heirloom

I have long said Grandmother's Hat held a strong affinity to Ragged Robin. There are just too many common traits to them for them not to be related somehow. HMF states, "China / Bengale, Hybrid Bourbon" for RR. Grandmother's Hat has much of that, but there is also a lot about it which is rather late HP or very early HT. Portland, I can't see about her, but the Hybrid Bourbon/HP/early HT definitely. I lean more toward early HT due to the greater health here in the Southern California climates. Neither Bourbons or HPs are anywhere near as trouble free as GH is in these parts, nor do any flower as incessantly here as she does. Kim

Melissa:

Thank you for the info on Hairloom's roses.

I grew up in Iran and Damask Rose is its national flower. It is grown as a crop. Flowers are used to produce rose water for cosmeic and diatery consumption and dried and fresh pedals are used to make spice, jam, etc. However, there is at least one variety that is completely similar to the other(s) except it is diaretic with other health benefits. It is used for medicinal purposes and sold in health food stores. I heard of a farmer who planted a few in a corner of her small farm, but due to suckering, the two varieties got intermixed and she had to go through a lot of trouble to clear her fields of both and restart all over again. It shows that even experts cannot distinguish between varieties.

If I ever go back for sight seening, I will try to time it during the harvest time. It should be incredible.

FJ

Here is a link that might be useful: process of making rose water

I just looked at the HMF listing for Grandmother's Hat and noticed something I hadn't before. It says "fragrant foliage". I've never grown it before so don't know what that means. For those of you that have gram hat, what does the foliage smell like?

I have an unidentified rose from Eurodesert that sometimes the leaves/canes smell like a pine tree--love it (need to post some pics to perhaps get an id)! And I recently planted R. primula which is supposed to have fragrant foliage (incense of some type is suggested), but it is a bare root just starting to leaf out, so I'm gonna have to wait to experience the scent.

Melissa

Hi FJ,

Since you are from Iran, do you happen to grow the damasks/damask perpetuals Ispahan, Gloire de Guilan, and Rose de Resht? I have grown Rose de Resht in Southern California and absolutely loved it. One of my favorite rose nurseries, Greenmantle, carries it as well as the other two above, see here: http://www.greenmantlenursery.com/2008revision/roses2008/roselist2008.htm

If you do go back for sight-seeing, and both Iranian and US agricultural restrictions would permit it, could you bring back some rose seeds? From Iranian species roses, like Rosa persica maybe?

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: Rosa persica on HMF

I take it back. I have seen wild roses there.

1. I have seen Rosa Persica there. Not realizing, (until now)that it was a rose in the first place. Evil TORNS. I don't recall seeing any flowers on them, but definately remember those thorns.

2. In Iran, all species and wild roses are called Nastarana(as a class): vigorous, shrubby or rambles with single flowers. They were used as root stocks too.

Both groups are considered weeds and undesireable. Although I always thought Nastaranas were charming, I remember my father removing them while young and managable.

To many HTs are the only real roses.

FJ

Hi All,

Bumping this up since I was on the search for Autumn Damask and this thread helped me a ton. Also, note that Heirloom is now distinguishing between two varieties and listing Autumn Damask and Quatre Saisons (Four Seasons) separately. The former is a once-bloomer, the latter has good repeat rebloom. If not for this thread, I would have continued thinking Autumn Damask iis the Four Seasons rose (per HMF and other sources) and blooms all year long.

https://www.heirloomroses.com/rosa-damascena-semperflorens-autumn-damask.html

https://www.heirloomroses.com/quatre-saisons.html

Thanks,

Nancy

This is my Autumn Damask from Peter Beales in England.

Hi Oldrosarian,

Is it a repeat-bloomer for you? What is your zone and general climate like? I zeroed in on this while looking for roses that will bloom spring through late fall in my 6b zone.

Thanks,

Nancy

PNW around zone 8. A lot of rain and only a main snowfall in the winter.

Small repeat, just scattered blooms. Very fragrant. Again a few blooms in the fall. I grow it mainly for the history of the rose. I have nearly 200 different OGRs but Autumn Damask is not one I would tell a gardener to get. Unless they were into making rose scent for something. Would be wise to grow it in a pot in case it runs around the garden.