Dave, GORGEOUS Ispahan and Indigo! Two more of my favorite old roses in your garden. I had no idea that OGRs grew so successfully in MO. I am so glad you are growing these Damasks as well as your Gallicas. Do you have any Mosses? Carol

Librarian, thank you for your lovely bud of MH! The photo on the Gallica thread is lovely, too! She’s just indescribably elegant. I grow Botzaris and Madame Plantier, but if I could squeeze in one more white OGR.... I think you are going to LOVE Jacques Cartier/Marchesa Bocella and Rose de Rescht! Their fragrances are swoon worthy. RdR a deeper Damask-old rose and JC/MB a strong Damask scent with a sprinkling of bath powder...nice bath powder, not Johnson’s Baby Powder. Both have been super healthy for me. Ditto Ispahan. Strong fragrance and super heathy. With maturity, both RdR and JC/MB rebloom well, with a few blooms all summer and a small more flush-like smattering in the fall. Carol

I planted Ispahan in fall 2019.

I’m not sure how I feel about it. The flowers are small and not as fragrant as I expected, but it is a vigorous plant.

Carol, hahaha, you made me laugh... I love the smell of Johnson’s baby powder😂

Catspa, that’s a great collection of Damasks! It boggles my imagination just trying to picture all the roses you grow. I wonder what your mystery Damask Perpetual/not really Rose du Roi from Vintage could be. It IS a gorgeous thing! Gads, I miss Vintage. I have been sorely tempted to try Portland from Glendora (somewhere aptly described as a “rose from Victorian wallpaper”), but I worry that it will blackspot too much in my region. Carol

Noseometer, thank you for your photo of Ispahan! One of the things I like about this forum is reading about roses growing in a wide variety of regions and climates of the US and the world. I’d give Ispahan 5-6 years to start looking and behaving like its reputation. I was underwhelmed with mine initially, but after a few years, I saw and smelled what all the fuss is about. Your climate is really different than mine, though, so I’d be curious to hear updates. What is the weather like in your area? Carol

Thanks Carol! I was just wondering if I should give it time or if I should take it out. The climate here is somewhat similar to Ispahan, Iran, so I figured it should do okay. Hot summers to upper 90’s low 100’s, chilly winters down to 0-10. Single digit humidity. 10-15” of rain a year. Lots of wind, gusting to 50-60 mph at times. Altitude 6500 feet makes for high intensity UV, and my garden is west facing, making for brutal conditions. The flowers got a bit shredded by the last windstorm. The fragrance is okay - sweet and clear, but mild, and the flowers are less than 2” wide. But my plant is pretty young, so I don’t know if it will get better.

Nose, I would definitely be patient with this cultivar. I find that Damasks— especially some of the old pink ones like Ispahan, Autumn Damask, Kazanlik, etc.—take time to find themselves. Like Tea roses do in my climate. Foot tapping slow, but worth the wait. I believe Ispahan should grow up to be a great rose for you! Mine wasn’t very fragrant either when it was young. Later, SO fragrant! To my nose, Nose, Damasks vary from not much fragrance at certain times of day to “Wow! Holy Cow!” at others, with more aromatic variance than other classes. Go figure. Please keep us posted on your Isphan’s development. I’d love to read what this old classic does in your region/garden over time. Carol

My (thank goodness suckering and surviving) Indigo emerging from under an overgrown Madame Alfred Carriere. Eek! I am glad Dave posted a photo of what Indigo really looks like—deep violet-pink, ink stained, indigo-edged confection of yummy goodness! Violette (rambler) in the background. Carol

We are in Week 6 here and the season is drawing to a close. My Damasks have almost stopped blooming . We had several unusually hot days last week and this week and have had hardly any rain this month. That will change this weekend--we expect rain and storms and daytime temperatures in the 50s and 60s.

This morning Ispahan and Marchesa had a few flowers and there may have been one or two on one Rose de Resht, but that was all. The only OGRs likely to be flowering into Week 7 are Apothecary, La Tourterelle, and Maiden's Blush.

In addition to the Damasks mentioned above, I have Autumn Damask, QSBM, Kazanlik, and a mislabeled Damask from Pickering 15 years ago--it's the same rose shown as Kazanlik on Rogue Valley's website--if you know its real name, please tell me.

Marchesa and Rose de Resht are usually considered Portland Hybrids or Hybrid Perpetuals, are they not?

How do you classify Banshee?

Lindsey

@portlandmysteryrose - I’m glad your Indigo has survived - battling it out with MAC shows just how tough it is! The only mosses I grow right now are Salet and Paul’s Treasure Trail. Well, I received what is supposed to be Ralph Moore’s Strawberry Swirl from RVR this spring but I think it was mislabeled. I saw you grow Salet as well - any others and recommendations? Is that multiple Rose de Rescht below the close up? It’s like a sea of blooms - beautiful!

@slumgullion in southern OR - Your Celsiana and Gloire de Guilan look just perfect!

portlandmysteryrose, Re: 'Rose du Roi' (of commerce) - ex Vintage. The Vintage Gardens Book of Roses notes that they got their clone of this from Pickering. The listing on HMF with the most photos resembling this rose (but not always!) is 'Rose du Roi à Fleurs Pourpres'. Vintage didn't sell 'Rose du Roi à Fleurs Pourpres', but I do wonder if that's what they got from Pickering... Unfortunately, I didn't explore Pickering's offerings while they were still in business, so don't know what they were offering in this class and such.

Not to torture you, but I think "Portland from Glendora" is probably one of the most indecently, heavily scented roses in my garden -- the first flush can be overwhelming if you are standing nearby.

Here was an interesting bicolor bloom she produced in 2019:

This is my "second" year (probably 2.5 years) with my Joasine Hanet (Portland from Glendora). At first she was on probation (like all I new roses) but this year, she has been throwing out wonderful blooms. I just LOVE her!!!!

What a great rose!

Lindsey, here are my thoughts on remontant Damask classification. I think you’ve pointed out the grey ID area, the part of the Venn diagram where remontant Damask descendants reside. Is a rose more Damask perpetual/Portland or more HP? I usually let my nose and eyes (and some general agreement by various rose authorities) decide. For forum posting purposes, I just lump remonants and once bloomers all together. They are all fairly Damasky to my eyes, and my nose’s opinion is, “Oooooo, yum! Damask.” Carol

Lindsey, apologies! The following was cut out of my last reply.

BANSHEE’s classification: That is a puzzle. (Plus there seem to be a few roses going around called Banshee.) My guess is that Banshee is a true interclass rose whose heritage includes a variety of classes so that it resembles one or another in different climates and regions and weather. I’d love to hear about any genetic tests on Banshee! I hope others who are more in the know will reply if I capitalize BANSHEE to get their attention.

As far as the photos on RVR’s site, they more closely resemble Autumn Damask to me even though they are labeled Kazanlik. Every K that I’ve seen is distinctly blowsy and informal. Does your Not Kazanlik look at all like your Autumn Damask to your eye? I’d love to see photos if you have any.

Carol

These are incredible blooms!!! I'm sooo in love with them!!!

Mustbnuts - that's insanely beautiful!!!

Thank you everyone for these fabulous pictures!!

Catspa and Must Be Nuts, you are wicked for reminding me how exquisite Portland from Glendora is! Honestly, that bloom IS Victorian romanticism. Does any other rose actually unfold in such perfect quartered raspberry swirls? And the powerful aroma you describe, Catspa, is really tempting me. I am mustering will power, holding firm and putting PfG on a back burner while I finish reorganizing my garden and place the roses that I already have, but if I locate even one empty shoehorn spot or an open large pot, I am soooo ordering her! And Benny Lopez. Carol

Dave,

Indigo truly is a tough beauty, right? I wouldn’t survive a battle with MAC!

We’ll have to compare notes on our Salets. Mine came from Vintage and has been a disease resistant, reliably remontant and well-behaved old Moss. I put it by the sidewalk because it remains pretty tidy with pruning and has such lovely, fragrant, seductive blooms. I also grow Nightmoss, Capitaine John Ingram and Nuits de Young. (You might spot a dark Moss theme here.) I am about to try again (#3) to propagate a neighbor’s rare old Moss. Tentative Lanei ID. I would LOVE to squeeze in William Lobb! I think the Henri Martin might do well for you. I’ve heard of it growing fine in what I am guessing might be your climate.

Congratulations 🎉🎉🎉 on your Treasure Trail! I’d love to hear more about your experience with that delightful Barden rose. I have been eternally waitlisted for Paul’s Scarlet Moss. I have a pot reserved for that one! If I ever get notification.

Carol

P.S. Yep. That huge, sea of raspberry blooms is my Rose de Rescht! So much to love. Ha, ha! I am going to plant Marianne right behind RdR. I figure that if anything can complete with and compliment that mass of OGR, it’s Marianne!

I tend to think of MB and Rose de Resht as Portland hybrids because of their small size and the China influence, although to my eyes the latter is more apparent in MB than in Rose de Resht.

But in theory at least a true Damask Perpetual ought to be free of any China influence, as described by Phil Robinson, and even his list, if parsed by DNA testing, would probably include varieties with some China ancestry. Without DNA testing we have only the phenotype to judge ancestry.

Kazanlik, aka Trigintipetala (30 petals) looks like Autumn Damask. There is a rose on the Rogue Valley web site labeled Kazanlik which has many more petals and a button eye.

I have a rose sent to me by Pickering when I ordered York & Lancaster that closely resembles Bella Donna and the mislabeled Kazanlik. It produces small rosette flowers with a button eye and usually starts blooming a little before AD or Kazanlik. It looks pure Damask to me and is indistinguishable from the other two except when it blooms.

I would like to see a DNA test for Banshee. It's a beautiful rose and has that Damask look I like so much. One of mine was still blooming today in the rain.

High Country has something different they call High Country Banshee.

Lindsey

I am growing 'Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseux, which is listed as a Damask Perpetual/Moss. I grew Rose de Rescht, which was less impressive in my prior desert conditions, however, Portland from Glendora was near perfect. I would definitely grow PfG again...

The roses displayed here are just breathtaking.

Here is Indigo in my garden-

How often does Indigo rebloom? --as often as any rose with good repeat or often compared only to other 19th century remontant roses?

Lindsey

DD had no classes today and amiably went out with me to photograph roses around the house and in the shade garden. We didn't get down into the big garden. This is either 'Rose du Roi' or 'RdR a Fleurs Pourpre', though it looks pretty pink to me....a little redder than this photo communicates. Whatever it is, it has what I call a damask look, with heavy canes that bend at the nodes, moderately prickly, and downy growth, all making a stout shrub. The flowers are fine; I just like this kind of plant.

I got this years ago from Tuincentrum Lottum in the Netherlands, I believe. I just checked, and they list 'Rose du Roi' and don't list 'RdR a Fleurs Pourpre', so I think it is the former, though how authentic I wouldn't undertake to say.

@lplantagenet7AVA It blooms in flushes, not continuously. Hard for me to say exactly. Mine is in quite a but of shade.

Melissa Northern Italy zone 8, to merely flip through the disparate, motley collections of photos for both 'Rose du Roi' and 'Rose du Roi à Fleurs Pourpres' on HMF is to lose all hope that this will ever be sorted out -- it is an historical/political/commercial mess of epic proportions, it seems. The amount of variability among the blooms shown in the photos on either site surpasses any other site on HMF that I can think of. The true 'Rose du Roi' is maybe there somewhere....

Your plant's blooms, from the photo, which I am grateful to see, looks to be at least "in the neighborhood" of mine, which does show redder, somewhat less structured blooms during the summer, though the flowers in spring and fall's cooler conditions always resemble the photo I posted. Your bush itself looks much like mine, though a bit more vigorous.

chris209 (LI, NY Z7a) Thank you. I'm trying to decide whether to add it to my garden or propagate more ADs or Pickering Four Seasons (if the latter recovers enough to provide cuttings). I do not want to add a new variety unless it offers better repeat than either of these.

Lindsey

Madam Hardy is having the best year yet in my garden. I think this is year 5. I started with a band.

We've had more hot sunny days than normal and the blooms are opening so fast. The bloom cycle might end up being shorter than the 4.5 weeks I've had in the past. The fragrance is so deliciously strong. The heat seems to be bringing out a blackberry scent in the damask/old rose fragrance.

Click on the image for a full shrub view.

Oh wow! She is covered in blooms. Must smell fantastic.

@catspa, there are some amazingly confused varieties in the old rose world, as I've seen in my dabbling with less common kinds. I'm worn down with almost a year and a half of coronavirus restrictions, plus being perpetually behind on garden maintenance, and perhaps for that reason can't be as concerned as I'd like about bringing a bit more order into the universe of old roses. I'm glad to add one little piece to the jigsaw puzzle you're piecing together about 'Rose du Roi'. If I can come up with the attention span to do so, I want to take cuttings of my RdR so I can plant it out to join a group of Damasks and Hybrid Damasks that are thriving at the other end of the garden. There's always so much to do! Today, I hope to finish--a month late--potting!!

RE: Rose du Roi--What about the vintage reversion? Hasn't that solved the the mystery of the original Rose du Roi?

RE: other Damask hybrid questions--does anyone here have the real Rose Edouard? I have an interesting Damask hybrid given to me by a friend whose grandmother grew it which seems it ought to be closely related to RE, although my opinion is based only on pictures and texts.

Lindsey

RE: Rose du Roi--What about the vintage reversion? Hasn't that solved the the mystery of the original Rose du Roi?

What's the real 'Rose du Roi' isn't so much the mystery, Lindsey, as what you might get if ordering it from a vendor. From Vintage, yes, you would get the reversion from 'Panachee de Lyon' which would be the true 'Rose du Roi', assuming Vintage had the authentic 'Panachee de Lyon', of course :-). But, looking through the photos on HMF, there seem to be a lot of different roses "passing" as 'Rose du Roi', whether "of commerce" or not. It was great that AquaEyes (Christopher) posted a series of study photos on HMF documenting the Vintage reversion and thus the presumably "true" 'Rose du Roi', now that Vintage is no longer around to sell the clone of known provenance.

.

But what vendors in general seem to be selling as 'Rose du Roi' and 'Rose du Roi of commerce' is at best a very motley selection and it seems a roll of the dice what you actually will get should you order it. The photo of Rogue Valley Roses' 'Rose du Roi of commerce', for example -- assuming that's what they actually ship to you :-) -- bears no resemblance to mine. I would also be interested in figuring out what my 'Rose du Roi of commerce' is, or what else it is being sold as, at least, as it has such an enchanting flower, unlike any other in my garden.

I totally sympathize, Melissa, with the low level of priority of this "problem" and the press of other things to do. This week I decided I am going to have to embark on a lot of new propagation, potting, and landscape prep over this summer, in anticipation of fall planting and in addition to everything else needing attention, to fend off an erosion problem developing on my native plant hillside. The very large shrubs have matured and shaded out and killed the sun-loving ground covering/protecting plants that was once there, leaving lots of bare ground. It never ends. Planting more of your 'Rose du Roi' at the other end of the garden sounds like a delightful idea, by the way.

I agree with you about the risks of ordering Rose du Roi. Who knows what you would get? I wasn't aware that there was more than one rose in commerce under this name. I would like to have the original and I'm assuming Vintage got it right, but that's about the only assumption I could make about this rose and for that reason wouldn't be inclined to order it.

Thank you for mentioning Christopher's pictures. I don't know that I've seen them.

Lindsey

My Autumn Damask has a good number of buds but some sort of caterpillar seems to be eating most of them. I'll try to get some pictures of it.

The blooms are definitely very strongly scented.

Steven

Autumn Damask

Steven

Autumn Damask

I totally geek out on these conversations about which cultivar is in commerce, in commerce IDs versus original descriptions, etc. A combo of history buff and rose lover! Carol

Chris, your Indigo is so richly beetroot-mauve-grey silk colored! Picture perfect. All watercolored and inky just as Indigo should be.

Melissa, please thank DD again for her photography skills. Whatever your rose is, it’s delightful!

Librarian, your whole garden bed is amazing, like something out of an English garden book! Your Madame Hardy is one of the loveliest I’ve ever seen.

MiGreen, thank you for persevering and posting shots of all those delicious AD blooms. Your garden must smell heavenly! I should try to find the evening shot I took of Salet. I didn’t realize it until I was looking through iPhoto the next day, but when I snapped the pic, there was a big ol’ sneaky army worm or something of that ilk munching a bud. I went outside and spotted the morning evidence of the hungry wildlife, chunky holes. Sort of a time lapse garden critter experience.

Carol

Jacques Cartier has never been so gorgeous. Flowers were very large because of the cool, rainy weather. A branch broke off from a rain storm and I brought it inside where it lasted several days.

Below, the broken branch. i was surprised how long this lasted. Mostly, this spring I have been trying to keep up with the enormous growth of everything. It all bloomed rather early and some things, like the iris, were rather spoiled.

Monarda, JC has become a favorite of mine. Yours is lovely in the rain! I had no idea JC would last that long in water.

I have been downsizing my garden and giving away a number of roses so I can give proper attention to the ones I am keeping. I am also making room for more native plants for pollinators. I never realized that JC is one of my favorite roses until it hit the top of my ”no one will ever pry this rose out of my hands” list! I grow both the shrub and the climber which arrived as a mislabeled Comte de Chambord.

I wish irises, especially bearded ones, held up better in rainstorms. Melted tissue paper comes to mind…STICKY melted tissue paper. But when irises are good, they are very, VERY good!

Carol

A Damask that hasn't come up yet, as far as I know, is the red-edged white variety 'Leda'. I've had a devilish time getting this started in my garden (efforts dating from around 2007), but think that a puny sucker taken and transplanted to the first Serbian Bed some years ago may finally have dug itself in and started to grow. The plant is still small, but what a delight! There is also 'Pink Leda', sport parent or sport of 'Leda', and this in my garden is ultra-vigorous and one of the worst suckerers of them all, but very healthy and beautiful. Are these not available in the U.S.? I was wondering because no one has mentioned them, until now, of course.

P.S. Steven, your 'Autumn Damask' is lovely. I'm an admirerer of this rose. There's a plant of it, the only one I know of locally, growing along a ditch in a farmyard on the back road to town, a happy beautiful plant.

Melissa, Leda is a unique and beautiful Damask! I grew her by the walk in my last garden, and she always attracted admirers. At that time, I had a large lot, Heirloom offered a pile of OGRs and Vintage was an addiction! I wish I had moved my Leda with me. I had a really good clone with lots of carmine “lipstick“ around the edges of the blooms. I don’t even have pictures of my former Leda as I was too busy designing others’ gardens, and I only had a film camera then. I can so relate when you mention that you don’t really take pics of your garden. I am so happy your Leda has finally taken hold in the soil! Maybe DD can snap a shot if it blooms next year, or maybe you can provide one of your poetic descriptions which are as evocative as a photo? Carol

I just bought Indigo and I'm blaming ya'll 🙈🙈🙈

@Melissa Northern Italy zone 8 I know Leda is available from HCR here in the states.

Magpie,

Ha, ha! Indigo will NOT disappoint!! The kaleidoscope of inky colors. The delicious fragrance. Yum!

After a few years, Indigo will throw out runners with sproutlings like a Gallica does. I honestly SEE Gallica in this dark and mysterious Damask. If the suckers surface too far from the mother ship, slice them out with a good whack from your garden-booted foot on a sharp spade.

Carol

@portlandmysteryrose Thank you 😊 I called Matt at HCR to ask about albas like we were talking about on the alba thread, but he steered me towards Damasks and Damask hybrids instead for our area and Indigo was in stock and... well... lol. But I'm excited to try something new and I wanted a rich color.

Does Indigo ever have fall colors or hips?

I think Matt 100% steered you toward a good class for your area. Honestly, your garden will be beyond swoonworthy in about 3-5 years. Mature damasks are nigh unrivaled in beauty and fragrance. Pure romance. Warning: They are addictive!

Indigo’s fall color and hips: You know, I’m not sure. Maybe you can give us the scoop on those, Magpie?

I've been revisiting older threads for the photos of roses I'm interested in or had in the past (Portland of Glendora) and, since I'm interested in buying Quatre Saisons in the fall if my rose experiment succeeds, for the enjoyment of seeing not only the flowers but the shrub as a whole. So much beautiful and evocative writing too, it is just pure pleasure.

Ingrid--I think Autumn Damask will always be my favorite not only fro its beauty and fragrance but because of its place in rose history. The disappointment for me is that mine do not do as well as I had hoped or repeat as often. Spring bloom is good, but summers here are hot and humid here, so summer bloom quality is not good and I never get fall bloom.

I have three seedlings this year, one of which I hope is a Damask, but the pot in which it grew was left over from the year before and lost its tag so the only thing I can say about it at this point is that the leaves look European. One of the others has European leaves and the third may be Musk or possibly a Noisette.

I see you are in Zone 10--it must be quite hot where you are. We have been fortunate in central Virginia--daily temperatures in the low 90s for most of the month. Yesterday, was mid-80s, high 80s forecast for today and 80s again for tomorrow, followed by a four day heat wave in the mid to high 90s for the end of the week.

Lindsey

Lindsey, the temperatures here, compared to many places right now, are bearable, mostly in the mid to high nineties. The humidity is much lower than yours, although I'm not certain whether that would affect the reblooming habits of this rose. As always, it has to be grown in one's own garden, and for a few years at that, before a definitive assessment is possible. I very much favor roses that are reliably remontant, but for whatever reason feel the need to experience this rose. Its historical significance has a lot to do with that, but I also want to smell and see the flowers, which seem to be quite different from the teas, Chinas and Bourbons that I've grown in the past.

Reading this post reminded me that I grew Portland from Glendora years ago, and in my location it did very well. Even an idiot like me who can't be bothered to do it right had five plants of it in short order from sticking canes of it around the mother rose, all of which grew into plants. I will say that it's extremely thorny which is not everyone's cup of tea. It did, however, have beautifully formed and very fragrant flowers.