Aimee, I'm afraid Felicia might fry in your afternoon sun. I had it in an area that had mostly morning sun and it still didn't do very well for me. I don't want to make the mistake of directly comparing my climate to yours, but overall the Hybrid Musks do not do well for me in the heat. Mme. Lambard will be a deeper color in the sun and you may not see its pale phase very much during the year. At least I didn't when I had it in another garden some years ago.

If your rose is eight to ten feet tall would it obscure the view from your window and would that bother you? E. Veyrat Hermanos would probably not ball for you (it didn't for me) but it's a monster that might overwhelm everything else when it's mature. Jaune Desprez did not ball for me but the flowers do hang on. Many people love it but I merely liked it. My favorite climber is probably Lady Hillingdon which I had no problem of any kind with. Great rebloom, healthy and carefree. For a smaller tea you might consider Duchesse de Brabant or Westside Road Cream Tea. A Bourbon like Souvenir de la Malmaison or Mme. Cornelissen might also be a consideration. Bourbons do very well for me here and did not mildew this spring when some of the teas did.

I'm sure other people will have other interesting suggestions.

Ingrid

As much as I understand, on the pillars you have two MACs growing, correct? And you want to plant Felicia and Blush noisette in between them? It is of course personal aesthetics, but wouldn't it be too much white in that spot, with two white climbers and Blush noisette being very light pink, almost white? Also for me Felicia is a bit peachy, when Blush noisette is pink, so I don't know if the color combination would work that well, maybe Buff Beauty would be a better choice?

Jaune Desprez is a big climber, I don't think that it would ball in dry climate, as much as I understand, balling is an issue only in cool and very wet climates, mostly with the roses that have high petal count. Jaune Desprez has different bloom structure, more ribony petals (like Perle d'Or has ribony petals), fragrance is really nice. Smaller climber rose that has a bit similar structure of blooms is Phyllis Bide, it is also shade tolerant, but unfortunately non fragrant. Or you might want to try Perle d'Or, which is spicyish fragrant and it probably will get big for you, but it is non climber.

Here is a pic of Jaune Desprez from my garden:
{{gwi:306783}}

{{gwi:306784}}

(are you guys tired of all my questions yet???)
I really appreciate you guys helping me work through this. There's so many options and I'm not really sure what to do yet. It's really helpful, thankyou.

I'm planning on definitely putting Gruss an Aachen and probably molieux somewhere near the front of that large bed. ... and for some other smaller roses, I'm probably going to get Sweet Chariot, Pink Rosette and probably some yellow, purple and white companion plants.

As a side note, my immediate neighbors have yellow daylilies and pink roses.

ALTERNATE IDEA:
The other thing I could do... is I could put Gloire de Dijon or Mme Berard in the "B" spot hanging over a small fence. (are they smaller and more manageable than E Veyrat Hermanos, etc...?)
and then put a more normal sized rose at the "A" position. Archduke Charles maybe. or Bermuda's Kathleen.. or Golden Celebration?

Right now I have a very very small Gloire de Dijon in the spot where my arbor will be with Sombreuil in the back yard.
and then I have Eden cl., behind the arbor. There's a 6 foot diameter measuring out from the corner behind the arbor where Eden cl is. (I'm not set on her being there...)
and then Mme Berard is on the wall of the guest bedroom next to the A/C. All are full sun positions.

Could I put a larger tea like Mme Lambard or Mrs BRC in a 6 foot corner? (where Eden cl is now?)

Could E Veyrat Hermanos be good on half an arbor.... (or would it be too huge with Sombreuil?)
or climbing up the side of my house next to the A/C?

Ingrid, I'm definitely getting SdlM. I think I have room for it somewhere near the front of the front yard, or in the back after I nix some morea (african lily)
-so far- the hybrid musks in this area of the front aren't being burned, I don't think. They're pretty young though, so maybe that's not really a show yet? There's a Felicia and Lyda rose in more sun than right up against the porch.

Elemire - Yes, I have two MACs growing on the pillars. :)
You're right, Jaune Desprez does look a lot like Perle D Or! Thanks for calling attention to the petal shape, that helps me visualize the rose better.
I think maybe you're right about there being too much whiteish right around the porch. Maybe a more pink noisette like you said, or maybe something else entirely (like a brighter camellia maybe...?)
I like Buff Beauty a lot, actually, I think it's colors would probably meld nice with MAC? Can you really keep it as a small-medium shrub, though? Maybe around 4- 5 foot? I don't want to block the porch completely.

I like Phyllis Bide, but the position I need a climber (or some kind of trailing lax growth) is actually pretty much full sun all the time and people say that PB gets "spotty" in full sun?

Phyllis Bide for me was a viciously thorny climber that did not do well in the heat. I have a feeling it's a much better plant in England. Buff Beauty can get huge, it really likes to spread sideways, and rebloom is not all that great. A pink noisette that is on the lavender side is Mrs. Woods Lavender Pink Noisette. Mine is young but the blooms are beautiful, although here they do fry in the summer. E. Veyrat may be a good house climber since that would give it more room. I understand Gloire de Dijon has very bare legs that people try to cover up with companion plants/roses. For a small rose that could be dotted anywhere and blooms constantly I've come to love Mr. Bluebird from Rogue Valley Roses. It's an exquisite little rose of which I have four, but even that doesn't seem enough.

I've had a yellow rose (Julia Child) in an area of mixed-color roses and finally had to move it because it always stuck out like a sore thumb, in spite of being a pretty plant. Something to consider, although it may not bother you.

I think your front garden is going to be wonderful when it matures, and you just have to accept that mistakes will inevitably be made before you get there. You never really know how well a rose will do in your particular conditions in the long run until you've tried it. But getting there is certainly part of the fun.

Ingrid

Right off the bat, I'd get rid of at least one of the redbuds. You will end up with too much shade, since you already have the two trees in front. A redbud canopy can easily be 15-20' across. Plus, redbuds reseed and if you don't get them when they are two inches tall they become a nightmare to pull out.

I second cat's observations. In fact, when those 3 trees mature, your front yard is going to be very shady. Trees always get bigger and the canopies spread out much wider than most people expect and cast a wider swath of shade too.

Plus roses won't like competing with tree roots.

It's hard to tell from a pic, but I fear that front yard is destined to be a hosta and hydrangea shady yard. Which isn't the worst thing in the world since hostas and hydrangeas are quite lovely also.

Good luck--and plan on your yard/garden "evolving" over the years. The best gardens do.

Kate

well, the builders put those trees in,... I'm PRETTY sure I can remove both redbuds if I wanted to (they weren't my choice). I might have to get HOA approval though. The one tree close to the front, I can't do anything to, though, as it belongs to the county. (lame).
By the way, they are Western Redbuds, listed at about 6-20 ft. tall and 10-15 ft. wide mature.
NOTE: there are only 3 trees. Two western redbuds, and one in the front that I don't know what it is.

I'd love to have a hydrangea yard but... (a) already have a good amount of roses here it'd be sad if they died and (b) hydrangeas are pretty water heavy for this area.

Ingrid, I do have Lavender Pink Noisette, which I got accidentally instead of Mrs. Woods (at your recommendation) The I bought was this one from Rogue Valley: http://www.roguevalleyroses.com/product_info.php?products_id=765
I was thinking it was a climber, but... looking at their entry about it, it says "spreading"... so that would be a shrub-ish habit like Blush Noisette probably, right? (ie I could use it as a bush instead of a climber...) I have no idea if it's shade tolerant or not. Right now it's very happy in a full sun pot. (it keeps covering itself in buds which I pinch off)

Regarding color combos, I was a little worried about there being perhaps too much hot pink with La Reine and Baronne Prevost. Near them are Carding Mill and Queen of Sweden though... so maybe I'm just overly concerned? It does seem like putting some kind of pale rose there (maybe Gloire de Dijon or something with that sort of coloring) would be better than something hot pink, though. I was thinking if I got a couple yellow ones, then they'd look cute, but maybe you're right that they'd be too different? I'm not sure. It's hard to visualize when the plants are really small.

I took a walk outside this morning to look at the "A" spot again and I think Ingrid, you're right, that a 10 foot tall rose would just be way too tall and huge looking there. It wouldn't necessarily block the view from the window... but it would look ginormous... and it would pretty much block off the MAC climbing that pillar. (the porch itself is only about 10 feet tall or so.
So I think if I put a rose at the "A" position it can't really be taller than 5-6 feet or so. I -could maybe- put my Grandmother's hat there... but then that's more pink, again.

Thanks for the encouragement you guys. I guess you're right that I can always move or change things later if it turns out that they don't work that well.

how did E. Veyrat do for you Ingrid? Or was it just not to your taste?

(seriously considering using it as a house climber and moving Mme Berard to the front on a low fence, or maybe an obelisk)

So..does your front yard face north? How wide is the bed next to the garage? 4 feet? Total width from walkway to property line?

I have some ideas. I suggest you put on the breaks for a moment. I know you want to add roses, and so do I. I wonder if you're skipping a step in landscaping this garden. First, add your trees to your drawing. Second, revise all the circles to show the eventual dripline of all trees and shrubs. That will give you a better idea of the grown-out scale of these plants. You started with the trees, which is perfect, but you've shorted evergreen shrubs that are the backbone of every garden. We are so lucky to have many everygreen flowering shrubs that grow in California. You need a few. Agapanthus is a shrub, btw.
Step 1: trees and shrubs for scale, demarkation and screening.
Step 2: a couple of specimen shrubs (this includes roses).
Step 3: fill in with low shrubs (that's almost an oxymoron) and perennials.

On the screening point...Do you want to demark your front garden from your neighbor's? I'm not suggesting a straight hedge, more like something softer, arching from the corner of the back wall to the front sidewalk. That edge was started with agapanthus and...what is the little shrub adjacent to your neighbor's yard? Rosemary? Coleonema? I like that nice arching edge and would carry it down to the the point where the lawn meets the sidewalk. You could move the Agapanthus from the center to that soft edge and intersperse that low evergreen shrub. No rows. At the bottom of the drainage swale, plant something clay and water tolerant, maybe a landscapey thing like Chondropetalum tectorum. Me, I'd move the second redbud, the one square in front of the front window, into that edge, not in a line with the one already there. No lines.

Next, think of the pathway as going through the garden, not marking the edges of the garden. I wouldn't put a large rose like a Hybrid Musk in the little bed next to the garage where the camellia is planted. You can fit a couple of low, shrubby roses that won't get taller than 3.5 feet. That's almost any polyantha and very few shrub roses. One Rita Sammons closer to the camellia and closer to the garage wall would be enough. Or (not and) a trio/triangle of something very small...I suspect it would have to be a modern. Everything wants to be close to 4 feet tall. I have very few small roses. The best:
The Faun
http://www.rosefog.us/TemporaryImages/2TheFaun.jpg
Pink Koster
http://www.rosefog.us/imagesJtoZ/KostersInBank.jpg

I would leave enough room to plant some low shrubs or perennials to soften the sharp corners of the front pathway, something like Teucrium chamaedrys blending into Teucrium cossonii 'Majoricum' or creeping thyme that you can plant on both sides of the walkway (they attract bees. Don't use them if you're allergic). I'd plant Teucrium on both sides of the walk and blend into the other Teucrium, also on both sides of the walkway.

That leaves the center of the center garden for some roses. Here are my comments on your choices.
-I like Location A for a nice Tea rose.
-Mrs. B. R. Cant is huge and won't fit in a 6 foot corner. Think 9 feet across. It's a nice rose, smells great, has good foliage. Mme Lambard blooms more often for me. The color is bright, almost garish at times, but similar to Archduke Charles/Mons. Tillier. Mme Lambard is bushier than Mons. Tillier if you resistant the temptation to prune off the lowest, twiggy wood.
-The same size rose is Le Vesuve. Blooms all the time, is large and bushy, can be pruned into a vase once mature. Check how it handles SoCal heat. It may be nothing worth growing.
-I'd plant one of the later Teas with lots of petals, though they don't have great fragrance, or Le Vesuve, if it handles the heat.

-Climbers on the front porch.
-Two MAC's growing on the front porch may be one too many. The rose next to the front door will eat the front entrance. I'd plant something more mannerly near the door, like Renae. It's thornless, scented and loves the heat. But this depends on the orientation of your front yard. Renae wants sun. If you choose it, ask Burling to bud you one. It can take an eternity on its own roots.
-E. Veyrat Hermanos is huge and bushy and won't fit as a pillar. It will eat your front yard and, depending on climate, may ball alot. It must be deadheaded because it sets the standard for "finishing badly." You don't want that in your front yard. Too much work and too large to deadhead constantly.
-Juan Despray, as they say in Texas, is every larger than E. Veyrat Hermano. Rebloom isn't impressive.
-Phyllis Bide doesn't rebloom very well. It is a huge, burly, prickly thing, no scent. The colors are lovely but the rebloom is spotty.

-A second rose in the location of the shrub with rubra foliage. Is that Berberis or Leptospermum
-Nice location for a second specimen shrub. The rose would be the focus of your landscape from your front window. If those Austin roses actually grow well and rebloom in your climate, then that would be a good location.

Bottom line: plant your roses with their probable eventual sizes in mind. Roses get large in California.

Well, since my Gloire de Dijon threw three 10' tall canes this year and it is still not the end of the season, I would not call it a small climber. For me he likes to grow straight up for about 7-8 feet, then starts arching and from the point where he arches he throws long lateral shots. Nice for the top of the arbor, but otherwise he is rather stiff and does not want to branch out lower than 5 feet or so. Also the color at least for me is amber yellow-orange, quite unique really - now I have it paired with Sombreuil and it looked good together, but before I had it near Golden Showers (which is bright yellow) and Symphatie (which is bright red) and the color clashing was annoying me significantly.

With Phyllis Bide, I would plant it only in a shade in your situation, where otrhre plants do not do that well, but it is rather shrubby and thorny. I have him in a pot in full sun and fading was ok in my opinion, the unusual color fades rather quickly and he stays somewhat whitish-peachy, but blooms stay for quite a while. Perle d'Or however is much more elaborate and nifty rose, which probably would be better for the center of the flower bed, while Phyllis Bide is really good to hide some ugly shady corner - it would even look better there than in prime spot.

I'll need to go in and do a more detailed drawing of the yard to get better measurements of the trees and everything. I'll try and do that tonight, thanks! :) I appreciate the detailed responses, truly! I'm a bit overwhelmed, but ya'll can probably save me -some- mistakes.

Gloire de Dijon - elemire, would it work well for an arbor with Sombreuil? or is it going to be too hard for me to train there?

The tea tree is Leptospermum, I think? I'm not sure, but it looks a lot like that. I think it's an Australian Tea Tree. It died though, i think, and I don't like it that much anyway, I'd rather have a rose there.

I think my front yard faces roughly N/W.
Here's a drawing I did of where the sun comes up:
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SHRUBS:::
Regarding putting in evergreen shrubs. I could put in more low camellias (sasanqua or whatever they're currently calling them) I really like those. Maybe there are some that are a little more sun tolerant? I also like agapanthus a lot and plumbago. Maybe one of these types might work well in a loose group near the border of the properties? Is that what you mean?
I like the idea of moving one of the redbuds closer to the property line (or removing it entirely)

The little shrubs that are near the border of my yard and my neighbor's is cistus (rock rose). They require almost no water, apparently...? I was going to move them to my sideyard which isn't on my drip system, I figured that would give a little bit of interest there and make it low maintanance (it's a very small side bit to the far side of the garage, not shown in the above photos)
You can see what I'm talking about in this photo:
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SIDE-OF GARAGE BED:
The space inbetween each pillar on the porch is about 12 feet width. I'm not at home right now, but I'd guess that the bed next to the garage (with the larger camellia and Rita Sammons) is about 7 feet wide? The sidewalk is 3 feet wide., so if you subtract 3 from 12, and leave a foot or two to the side of the sidewalk, then you'd get about 7 feet.
I put Penelope (hybrid musk) there hoping to use it as a short climber to climb up the side of the garage. Is that a bad idea? (ie, is there not room for it?)

I really like the Faun, it was on my short list. But I'd never even heard of Pink Koster before... am I right in thinking that it looks a little bit like a small Bow Bells?? That bank of them is amazingly gorgeous. You make me tempted to move the Rita Sammons there and put a couple Pink Kosters there instead. The Camellia there in that small bed is a pink camellia,... so it would look a lot like the photo you have of the bank, only smaller.

E VEYRAT:::
if E. Veyrat really holds onto brown flowers after it finishes (ie finishes badly) then I'm not sure if I want it or not. :\ I think I'd prefer to wait and see how well I can tolerate Maman Cochet cl. (I've heard it also holds onto brown flowers when it finishes. I already have it. So maybe it would be a good test of whether I'm ok with that kind of finish on a tea.) If I get it at all, it'll be for the back, then. If Jaune Desprez is even bigger, then I'm not interested in it. Thanks, it helps to eliminate it. I'm not that hot on Phyllis Bide either unless she fit a specific need, and I don't think she does.

LINING THE WALKWAY: Right now I'm planning on doing nepeta, but I like Teucrium and thyme, too. My plan was to have shorter roses closer to the edges of the beds, and then in front of them things like nepeta and lambs ear. I haven't seen Teucrium at my local nursery, but maybe they can get some for me. Is it easy to deal with?

LOCATION A: Berndoodle, regarding location A, I think all those teas are probably just too big, right? They would fit width-wise, but if they really get 10 feet tall, it seems like it would just look too huge there. I'm not a big fan of Le Vesuve, at least not ones that I've seen growing at Descanso. They look pretty in people's photos online, but I wasn't impressed when I saw it in person. Also, if I get a tea, I'd prefer to get one that has changeable color in the flower. That's the big selling point for me with those. I wish there was a medium rose (like a tea or something with a similar habit) that changed color. Perhaps that is Archduke Charles? Jeri was saying she thought I might be able to keep it more like 5 feet,... where as Mme Lambard and BRCant are pretty much always huge (like 10 feet) Do you have any suggestions on a tea that wouldn't be huge but still has a pretty color changeing bloom? When you say one of the "later Teas" could you give me some examples...?

LOCATION B: (this is the spot where the Australian dead tea tree currently is) I was basically thinking that I'd do either A or B, not both.
so... if I did some sort of shrub along the property line... and then did a nice medium rose at the B position (where the leptospermum is). I think that would probably work pretty well. It could either be a shrub... or the idea I had with the small fence and a mannerly climber or lax-cane bush laying over the fence.
I'm not sure if any of my existing (moveable or pot ghetto) roses would work well for that or not. Maybe Mme Berard??

Austins seem to do really well here, by the way. The Jude the Obscure and William Shakespeare and James Galway cl in the back seem to be really happy (planted this past January.) If it makes any difference in information, they were bareroots bought from DA. (so probably grafted)

Thanks a ton you guys, I appreciate you taking the time to give it some thought and respond in such a detailed manner.

as a sidenote, my neighbor across the street put a crepe myrtle in his little garage sideyard thing. (where I was talking about putting my cistus)... and I think that's kindof a fabulous idea. (or maybe moving one of my redbuds there.) but I don't know if it's a big enough spot or if it would be weird. at least crepe myrtles you can control easily with pruning.

I have a front garden too where I grow roses. I spent ages planning and graphing it, so I understand your obsession! There are two things I think you should consider. One is scale. Teas get huge in hot climates (like yours and mine). I chose not to put any in my front yard because they'd overwhelm the garden there. I'm planting mine in the back. The tallest roses I have in front top out at 5 feet and form a hedge from the neighbor's driveway. All the others are in the 3-4 ft range.

Another consideration is foliage. In the back I've planted two teas (Rubens and Mme Mari) and Grandmother's Hat (I'm not sure what she is). Rubens is going to be shovel pruned. Flowers are ok but the foliage is thin and it's just not an attractive bush. Ms. Mari is staying but the bush is wider than tall and a little awkward. I need to move it to give it the room it needs sideways. Grandmother's Hat is a true winner -- Jeri is right. The plant has lovely leaves -- green and full. It's shape is attractive and the blooms are magnificent. It may or not be the right rose in your yard but it's taught me a lesson about looking at the rose bush as a whole.

If it were my yard, I wouldn't put more than one really big rose and I'd put it in position A (seems more balanced in the yard). Whichever rose you pick will dominate and set the tone for the entire garden so pick one you love that will look good most of the year, has clean foliage and an attractive shape.

Yes, it's a lot to ask from a rose but the right one for your garden is out there.

Debbie

Aimee, if you get a crape myrtle, please make sure it's a miniature one. The regular sized ones will get huge. Pruning the bigger ones will be a chore and you can't just whack the branches off; the tree has to be shaped. Miniature is the only way to go. I've noticed there's not that much difference in the amount of bloom either.

I got rid of E. Veyrat Hermanos because I realized I didn't have a big enough space for it anywhere, the blooms die badly, and frankly when I saw even the fresh blooms in person I didn't like them as much as I thought I would. They were rather stiff and tightly formed, almost fake-looking (my personal opinion, I realize many would disagree.) Grandmother's Hat was six feet tall for me in less than two years and will easily reach 8 feet or more and in hot weather the blooms may frizzle badly (they did for me at least). It's just too large a rose. I still think the soft pink of Duchesse de Brabant and it's graceful habit would go well with the other colors. It also gets large eventually but could more easily be kept pruned. If your front garden is more shady than you realized the rose Spice will not get huge, has pinky white flowers that go with everything and a nice bushy habit. Cels Multiflora would also be a considerations; it's really cute and a pale pink. I would definitely avoid the stiff, awkward habit of Gloire de Dijon and Phyllis Bide. Phyllis Bide's blooms fade very quickly after they open. Since the Austins do well for you why not go for a few more of the smaller ones until everything you have so far has had a chance to grow and develop a little. Wife of Bath, Chaucer, and Anne Boleyn are good smaller light pinks. Vintage Gardens has Austins that are own-root and these stay smaller and supposedly bloom more than the grafted ones. They also have quite a few polyanthas that might work for you. It's sooo temping to have large shrubs until you realize that you don't have the space for them in your front yard.

You must feel overwhelmed by now. Sometimes it's best to do nothing for a while except to take care of what you have until your thoughts about all this advice have coalesced a bit more. If you make a mistake with a small rose it's no big deal, but trying to dig up a huge climber is another matter altogether.

Ingrid

The roses I currently have in the pot ghetto or could move to the front:
(not counting the smaller roses, only medium/large and climbers)

Alchemist
Eden cl
Grandmother's Hat
Maman Cochet cl.
Mme. Berard
Madame Joseph Bonnaire
Reine des Violettes

Currently in the front, but could be moved around:
Felicia
Rita Sammons
Lyda Rose
Wild Eve

I do worry about the whole bush look of teas. I've never once seen one year round. I keep going back to Huntington and Descanso to see them at various times of the year... but even though people say "Teas are great for heat" and "teas rebloom a ton"... they're not often blooming (I've been probably 5 times since this spring and I've yet to see a single tea in a "full flush" or even with more than say 5 blooms...) and some of them look a bit scraggly on a whole. I don't know if it's just the ones that are at those gardens, or if it's just that I don't really like the habit of old teas. I don't know. Most people don't post full bush photos on HMF, either. Like, you say you find Rubens to be a bit ungainly, but all the photos on HMF look gorgeous. ;)

which makes me feel like maybe I should just not bother with getting a LARGE TEA... and just stick with Grandmother's Hat, which I already have and I know I love.
I would put Grandmother's Hat in the front "A" position, but it gets super huge, too, right? on HMF it says up to 12'... (which by the way... I absolutely adore the bloom on. I've only seen it bloom once since it's a baby, and I love it to pieces.) so I think she'd be too big for the front yard, too.

I think what might be ideal for my Grandmother's Hat... if she'd fit, would be to put her behind my arbor in the 6' corner. But... not sure if she'd fit. Maybe I could move the arbor back just a bit to give her a little more space?? (I'd have to move Sombrieul and Gloire de Dijon, but that would be ok, probably, right?) I haven't actually put the arbor in yet.

What really attracts me to the old teas is what people say about them reblooming quickly and being heat tolerant.
but even more so, I really liked the color changing aspect of some of them. But putting a gigantic one in an awkward position, isn't worth it.
I wonder if there is a somewhat mannerly or small CLIMBING tea that has color changing bloom aspects. Like... 'Souvenir de Madame Lnie Viennot'? Though it's probably too big, too. Someone compared it to kudzu on HMF, and that's rather scary. haha. If I could find a small color changing tea climber (or tea noisette climber), then I could probably easily find a spot for that and I'd adore it.

I could do one large climbing tea on the side of the house, but it would have to be:
(A) color changing bloom
(B) not hold onto it's blooms like old paper when their finished.

INGRID:
Thanks for the recommendation re: crape myrtle, much appreciated!

I appreciate your candid response about E Veyrat. I know everyone has different taste, but still, thankyou! Usually you only see the pretty side of a rose online, and I need to know all the sides before choosing them if I can. Which is, of course, impossible. :) I'm sure there will be plenty that I will take a year or two to decide that I don't like it...

Spice is really pretty, but I think I'd rather stick with my Queen of Sweden and my (to be) SdlM.

I like Duchesse de Brabant a lot. Can you really keep it pruned smaller though? (since it's a tea? aren't you basically supposed to not prune teas?) The bush photos of it on HMF look lovely. What size should I be expecting from it mature, though? HMF is pretty vague at 3-8' :\ considering how things go, I bet it's 8',... if so I'm probably better off just keeping with Grandmother's Hat.

Thanks, ya'll. You guys are sweet. I really appreciate ya'll answering all my questions. I feel like I keep coming back with more questions, so thanks for bearing with me.

I'll definitely think about this for a while before I make any choices, thanks for the encouragement. That's usually the best way for me to make choices is to try and learn alot and then stew about it for a while.

Duchesse de Brabant tolerates pruning well, for what it's worth in California. I just went out and measured mine, in the ground about 4 or 5 years now. She is 8' tall and 10 ' wide, with leaves solid all the way to the ground. Every winter I whack her back by about a third. I shudder to think how big she might be otherwise!

My design instinct was the same as Rosecorgi's: old hybrid teas in the front yard and teas in back, for the same reasons.

I know I sound like a broken record, but consider Le Pactole for your tea, so lovely with its upright vase form, healthy and happy with such nice blooms and foliage even in the baking heat. It would be fabulous for position A as the only large tea. Also, for constant bloom, pretty much everything in the Agastache family would be nice to look at while waiting for those rose flushes.
I did not see if you said which way your house is facing. I would guess once those Redbuds get a little size, whatever is planted between them and the house will be in constant shade.

instead of a tea I could go with Bermuda Kathleen, which I think is very charming, at least from photos. And it would pick up all the other colors (light pink and pink).
or I could go with Bow Bells which has a nice airy feel. If I got those Koster low roses, they'd probably match.

I did some more detailed measurements, I hope this helps! I tried to roughly estimate sizes
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oh... just so that it has more information... there's about 17' from the tree to the house., that's spot "A". (so spot A could be around 17 feet, but that's not allowing for the real size of the tree or shade from it.)

Also, I remeasured my Arbor Corner in the backyard. It's actually 7 feet from the corner to the first clematis, and 8-9 feet from the corner to Sombrieul and where the arbor would be. So I could probably move the clematis(s) to the other side of where the arbor would be and then I'd have a big spot for a tea or Grandmother's Hat there. Or even move Sombrieul and the arbor a foot or two back... right? I need to think about it regardless, though. But it's a thought.
I loved how Kim on HMF described sitting under a big Grandmother's Hat.

>Do you have any suggestions on a tea that wouldn't be huge but still has a pretty color changeing bloom?

General Schablikine probably will stay at 5' or less there, assuming the Antique Rose Emporium's experience in growing them in southern Texas isn't drastically prone toward growing shorter roses than what you might have in California. (HMF just appears totally wrong on that one's size.) Peter Beales describes it as a compact tea rose. At any rate, if it did grow slightly taller for you, I haven't read that you can't prune it some. That's what the florist suppliers would be doing, after all. (The florists in Italy sold it for a long time as a cut flower.)

Our General Schablinkine did change over time, but was more in the nature of fading from the center outward for any one particular bloom. In cool winter temperatures, the blooms as a whole become much closer to red, though we didn't get that far with it before all of ours were tossed out because of Rose Rosette Disease.

General Schablikine is fragrant, and prone to bloom on into early winter, even in an unusually cold winter. Apparently it's exceptionally hardy for a tea.

Best wishes,
Mary

I'm with Greybird, on 'Le Pactole.'

Jeri

Aimee, if you keep all your trees in the front yard I think you could get away with a Hybrid Musk in the A position because it was be shaded from the western sun. My Cornelia only gets a few hours of sun late in the afternoon. I think this is why it's the only HM that survives in my yard. Every place else is way too hot. I would also recommend early HTs for your front yard, preferably Vintage Type 1, 2 or 3. My Mme Abel Chatenay is prunable and is basically a round bush about 4.5' tall and across with canes going out in all directions, well foliated, big peachy pink flowers, not variable. Save your climbing teas for the garage side (south) of your house or the back yard. Interestingly, my Cl MC looks like a tree espaliered on a fence/trellis with the bottom 5' bare and the top billowing up and out. (In fact, I grow E Veyrat Hermanos the same way.) You will really have to stay on your toes with these, because they will get away from you quick once they get going. EVH is young (but big) and really hasn't bloomed a lot yet, but the color is very nice - kind of coral now. You really need access to both sides of these roses so you can cut or tie as needed. I'm going to start tying the sidewards canes loosely together with stretchy tape to keep them hoisted more UP than spreading OUT. I was thinking you might consider an arrangement like this for the strip next to your driveway, training the climber up and out like a tree on a sturdy trellis. They throw 12' - 15' canes and then long sideshoots off those canes, so you've got some size going on there. I just read that tea climbers really shouldn't be pruned but let alone to do their thing (at least in 1900 they thought so). It also seems like your roses should only go outside the spread of your trees while also accounting for the angle of the sun and where the shade will be. I agree that shorter plants should be out near the street and get taller or undulate somewhat as you move toward the house but I might put a taller plant at the north corner of the front yard. I too would make some sort of line of demarcation on the property line. My front garden seemed better when there was no confusion between whose was what. Keep working on it and inspiration will strike.

Sherry

In regard to a changeable tea, what about Rosette Delizy? I know it can get large but wonder if it could be trained as a climber. Mine is too young for me to be able to tell, but compared to some of my other teas it has a more elongated, thinner form at this stage. The colors are really beautiful, and definitely changeable.

Ingrid

Look, aimeekitty, you're on track here. Make your choices of a few roses, grow them really well so they are beautiful all the time, and surround them with a beautiful landscape. What better way to show off roses?

I love Nepeta, especially Western Hills! Sadly, it looks like cr*p in the winter here. Maybe your climate is different enough that it will look ok in the front yard. I have lots of Nepeta, but not along the entry walk, which I want to look nice even in winter. So...just a thought. Repetition and massing are good in an entry landscape. It's calming, it holds together, it makes sense and isn't cluttered up with a little a this, a little a that. You have Nepeta, Lavender and Yarrow already. I suggest you consider repeating more Nepeta and Lavender. (Yarrow is a maintenance problem because you have to cut it down during the growing year. The others you can do once a year.) Take a look at the Teurcriums I suggested. It's a terrific plant around roses, clumps, doesn't crowd, and is evergreen, a real virtue in winter.

I think Lyda rose will handle filtered tree shade midday, so you could consider planting it where it will get some shade from your trees. Grandmother's Hat can be your great big rose in front. If you can move the camellia go closer to wall E, you'll have more room for a large rose just a few more feet "north" of the camellia's present location.

I have Rita Sammons near my kitchen door. It is sweetly fragrant, blooms a lot, and doesn't seem to get as ginormous as Perle d'Or. I like where you have it, fwiw. Mine is fairly narrow, say 4 feet wide, so there'd still be room to plant something green at her feet next to the walk.

Keep at it. You know enough to do this. Try to keep in mind that less done really well is more. :)

Gloire de Dijon - elemire, would it work well for an arbor with Sombreuil? or is it going to be too hard for me to train there?

It depends a bit how big the arbor would be. If it is that kind that you get just a bench under it, it probably would be too small for both of these 2 roses, but if it is lets say 7-ish feet tall and similarly wide, it should be fine.

Personally I like leggy roses way more for the arbors than the shrubby ones, since you do not have to deal with side laterals going all directions and actually can sit under your arbor. ;) Bottom I usually hide with some shrubby perennial, lavender, malva, asters, floxus, well whatever I have in pot gheto at that point and what is not thorny. x)

In my garden Sombreuil and GdD share narrow strip of soil near the separation wall and their legs are hidden by lavender, white malva and tree peony, which should shrub out in a couple of years to a decent size. :)

You also might consider Le Vesuve for your front garden, while it is not a pure tea, it seems to be a good rose for dry and hot climates, especially if you put it where there is a bit more sun (so further from the house. I think a few people in this forum had it in the front beds?

as a sidenote, my neighbor across the street put a crepe myrtle in his little garage sideyard thing. (where I was talking about putting my cistus)... and I think that's kindof a fabulous idea.

*** BEWARE CREPE MYRTLE!
They can suffer from powdery mildew.
Moreover, per Baldo, they attract aphids!

(Our neighbor just planted a large one. We are hoping all of our aphids move to his yard!)

Jeri

Jeri, the older varieties did have powdery mildew but I understand they have improved varieties now. The experience I've had with my three (two regular and one dwarf) is that they had absolutely no mildew (even when a lot of my roses had it this spring), and not a single aphid that I could see (they were all on the roses). However, I've pretty well given up on thinking that one place is like another, or that my place is like anyone else's.

Ingrid

My house faces roughly N/W, in the morning, as the sun comes up over the back of the house, the house itself, and the porch, shades part of the front yard. If you look at my graphed drawing, the area that has Kramer's Supreme camellia, ie about 5-6 feet out from the porch, is shaded until noon, during the summer.
At around noon or 1 pm, the sun comes up over the house and the shadow moves back. So roughly, from about 1pm to 6 pm, there is no shade in the front yard. The exception being the area right next to the garage that has Marie Bracey Camellia. Rita Sammons gets sun, but Marie Bracey gets very little due the the garage shade.

>> early HTs for your front yard, preferably Vintage Type 1, 2 or 3.

Sherry. I have no idea what a Vintage Type 1, 2 or 3 is. :) :) Do you mean the growth habit types Vintage Gardens list ( http://www.vintagegardens.com/classhabits/HT.gif ) ? I'm not sure where to find more information on early HT to see what I like. I have La France cl., that's about all I know. :)

If that's true,... then I really like stuff like Mrs. E. G. Hill, Hermann Lindecke, Jean Cote, Reichsprasident von Hindenberg, Reynolds Hole, Surville :)

Sherry, do you have any photos of your trained E Veyrat? :)

Ingrid : I like Rosette Delizy... but the coloring is a little too red-yellow for me. I'd prefer red-cream or pink-yellow, etc.. if that makes sense.

Berndoodle - I'm so new, I don't know how nepeta looks later in the season, so I guess I'll find out! Right now I'm trying one or two each of a few different perennial ground cover plants to see which can tolerate the situation best. and then I'll try repeating them all along the sides of the beds and sidewalks interspersed with other companion plants and short groundcover-like roses. Or at least that's the plan.
I'm starting to get the hang of watering the lavender properly and which varieties I like better, but I'll probably wait until next year to get more of any sort of repeating ground cover like this. I want to make sure it does well all year, like you said, and that I like it all year.

re: Rita Sammons, that's great! That basically was what my plan was, to keep Rita at about 4-5 feet wide. So that the camellia behind it is taller, and then something short and soft at Rita's feet. I thought it would be cute in the front on the walkway, too. I've always thought of Cecile Brunner and it's babies as something you pop the flowers off and put in your hair for fun.

elemire - It's probably a smaller arbor, I haven't bought one yet, but around 4-5 feet wide, I'm guessing. So... are you saying I should remove/move Gloire de Dijon and just have one rose (sombrieul) climb up over the arbor. Will it cover both sides...? (assuming I have something smaller at the feet anyway...)

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UPDATED DEEP AND MEANINGFUL THOUGHTS: :) :)

I'm inclined not to get a large tea at all.
Instead... I'm thinking about doing:

---- Putting Grandmother's hat in the 7-9 foot corner in the backyard with the arbor in front of it. It could get as tall as it liked here and that would be just charming. The arbor has Sombrieul and Gloire de Dijon on it. I may have to move those two back just a tiny bit to give Grandmother's Hat some more space. But if Grandmother's Hat is beautiful most of the year and has a lovely bush shape,... then it seems pretty perfect for me. I already own it and I know I love the smell and bloom look.
Not sure whether I should remove the tiny Gloire de Dijon band... it might be too hard to train with Sombrieul on a small/medium-ish arbor.

---- inclined to see if the HOA will let me remove one of the western redbud trees so that I can have less eventual shade in the front. I'm wondering whether I could put it on that strip of land on the other side of the garage (which currently has nothing). But I'd have to add some irrigation there...?

---- finding out what camellias are low and tolerate both sun and shade and considering planting a couple pink ones as the lining of the porch (inbetween the two Madame Alfred Carriere). That would give me a different shape than all the roses and would give me blooming in winter.

---- for along the border of the two properties, considering adding some more agapanthus, or just researching more evergreen low-ish shrubs and see what I like there. Not a hard line, but some soft groups of them along the property line. Not truly evergreen, but I suppose I could try a daylily, too?

------------ for the "A" spot, I'm considering:

Curious about what a mature bush looks like, whether it tolerates pruning and whether it holds onto spent blooms poorly. I'm asking AntiqueRoseEmporium about what they think the size would be on the mature bush. I like that it blooms in winter sometimes, too. color change. (YAY!) ~~~~~ Archduke Charles. again, I'm asking AntiqueRoseEmporium about what they think the size would be on the mature bush. I'd love to see more photos of the mature bush and what it looks like post\-flush, etc. I've heard several accounts of it doing well in heat and drought. color change. (YAY!) ~~~~~ Bermuda's Kathleen Really not sure on the size of this one. I'm guessing about the same as Archduke and General. Perpetual blooming, probably. color change. (YAY!) ~~~~~ Ghislaine de Féligonde (or a Noisette or Cornelia or Felicia) If I need to be concerned about shade tolerance, then I was thinking about going with one of these. I liked that Ghislaine de Féligonde has the color changing aspect. It's fragrant and isn't covered in thorns. It can apparently take hard pruning, too, in case it gets out of control. I already have a Felicia that I was trying out. I'm also partial to older\-style Noisettes (like Champney's Pink Cluster and Narrow Water) in pale pink since I'm from Charleston and I like the style anyway. Or I could go with the Lavender Pink Noisette that I already have. \-\-\-\-\-\-\-OTHERS\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\- ~~~~~ Tipsy Imperial Concubine plan to shove her in a very pretty pot. ;) ~~~~~ molieux maybe get a couple so that there can be some balance of yellow. ... I'm hoping if I can work some yellow and white companion plants in, then the yellow won't be too much. Or I could put it in the backyard somewhere where I already have a couple Jude the Obscures and some yellow daisies. ~~~~~ SdlM somewhere in the back. I have a couple spots for a medium rose. :) ~~~~~ Yves Piaget smaller footprint, I have a couple spots I could fit her. ~~~~~ Mme. Berard The idea with this would be to basically let Mme Berard trail over a short decorative fence. Would Mme. Berard work for this? I already have Mme Berard, but I could just leave it in the back climbing the house as it is. ~~~~~ if I get any climbing tea, I'll have it climb up the back of my house where I can appreciate it, but won't have to deal with cleanup. ~~~~~ I still have for placing (already own, but are in the pot ghetto): Lavender Lassie Lavender Pink Noisette Maman Cochet cl Alchemist Eden cl Madame Joseph Bonnaire Eventually I wanted to get a pergola, so some of the climbers, whatever I don't find other places for, could go there. Mme Joseph Bonnaire is probably a normal HT size, so that won't be too hard to find a spot for. I have a couple more small climber positions, too. ~~~~~ and then for mini and front\-of\-bed roses, I was considering: Kosters, Pink Rosette, Sweet Chariot, The Faun, Pomponella, Gruss an Aachen (I already have Compassionate Friend and Duftendes Weisskirchen)

When you click on a class, a page comes up on the right with a general description and numbered sketches that correspond to different growth habits in that class. Then on the individual rose page it will show the Growth Habit # along with the numbered plant sketches. I use this a lot to determine the size of roses, but they have been wrong occasionally.

E Veyrat Hermanos, planted 9/08. Posts are 10' apart and 8' tall. It is probably 4'-5' beyond the posts sideways. This was taken a month ago. It's bigger now, but nowhere near as vigorous as Cl Maman Cochet - at least in my yard. Don't know if this is the right way to do it.
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Sherry

Aimeekitty- you mean dwarf plumbago, don't you? Ceratostigma plumbaginoides, not big old cape plumbago. It's really a ground cover.
Renee

Aimee, I am not sure if Sombreuil won't be too big for your small arbor as well, although mine is still a baby, so can't really say how it likes to grow, but if throws 12 feet basals... you might have what to do pruning it to some shape. ;) Looking at the photos Sombreuil does not get monster laterals as some roses tend to have (City of York cough cough), so he might be ok.

As for GdD, why not to plant it to climb your garage roof? It should do quite well in the bed where you have your rita samons and camelia, also it being leggy is an advantage there, since you will be able to pass it on your way home ;) It does not mind shade and when it will get on a roof, it will have almost full sun. You could stick Alchemist somewhere there too, they could look good together and Alchemist is not that shrubby either, but with age he can cover quite some height (after all, his top estimate is 20 feet).

Also, regarding pink Koster (or Morsdag versions of it), you have to keep in mind that they are quite prickly. If you are not obsessed by globular small blooms (like I am), there probably are much better minis to choose from. Kosters are quite popular roses here and require virtually no care.

There also are Lens musks to consider, they are somewhat more tidy and formal looking than old musks and I am not sure how they would do in your climate, but Bouquet Parfait or Feeling are rather pretty in person, as well as Plaisanterie (if you want big wild looking and tad prickly rose somewhere).

Btw in your first plan I see that close to Rita Samons you have Penelope for the garage wall. When I was buying mine (which identity turned out to be in question), I have read in quite few threads here and elsewhere, that Penelope does not like shade that much and rather prefers sunny place. Maybe, if you like her fragrance, you could pair her with Sombreuil for your arbor, since she also is a small climber in comparison, or rather something in between small climber and large shrub.

Renee- I don't really know. :) :) If I got a big cape plumbago, it could be like a shrub, right? I haven't really researched it yet.

Sherry, that is marvelous. truly.

I don't actually have a neighbor on the other side of my house yet. I'm not sure if I could train something like that and not feel like I was putting up a fence. but I guess people do put up fences, huh? I haven't really had to think about it before. All this pretty new to me! Like my neighbor plants a tree, but the tree might shade my yard..., you know what I mean?
It's wonderful though. I really like how you've done it. It's charming.

>I don't actually have a neighbor on the other side of my house yet.

Hello again Aimee,

I'm glad you mentioned that! Forget my references (for the most part) to your "side yard" (which I presumed based on your wintertime 5 o'clock picture of it from the corner towards your house). I was thinking that this was a large unlandscaped area of your yard that you hadn't gotten around to doing anything with yet, and imagining potential ways to fill it up. But now I know to stick my imagination more to the front and back yards... :D

Best wishes,
Mary