Kim I feel the confusion starts from Rosenlexikon Book (1936). David thanks for the teabags' notes. Very informative.

I tried to synthesis all we know about these two roses:

See if it makes any sense:

- The both seem to have beautiful buds. And their both red.

But what they differ is:

Colour 
FD is more cerise/ amaranth. Whereas Barcelona is more blackish red.

So, FD could be a lighter shade than Barcelona.



Scent One mention of scent for FD (HMF), whereas Barcelona has a good scent described numerous times as old rose.

So, one can conclude that FD is lightly scented or not scented whereas Barcelona has a nice sweet scent. 



Form 
Fd has a lax, weeping form, "diffused", while Barcelona has erect stems.

Size FD can become really big whereas Barcelona is considered a small rose.


Petal number There are none about FD. However, there are 4 reference that mention 40-50 petals for Barcelona and two mention 75 or more (105).

Possible contradictions


- FD has blue green leaves.[Rosenlexikon Book (1936)]

- FD has glossy leaves.[Kim's source]

- The same German source describes that FD has erect stems, however an English source specifies that FD as a pot plant has weak stems.

- FD is mentioned as a good candidate as a dwarf rose in an Australian nursery catalogue, however, in [Tea Roses in New South Wales -1931] it is recommend as an 8-9 feet shrub.

- One British sources says that it is very hard to distinguish between FD and Souvenir de Thérèse Levet.

- Barcelona has also it’s own lookalikes, regardless the fact that it has been masquerading as FD for the past 30-40 years. Sensation, Etoile de Holland, Chateau de Clos Vougeot, (in color), and Oklahoma (Kim).

In conclusion if one grows Francis Dubreuil and Barcelona side by side in California/ Australia. It is possible that FD would dwarf Barcelona by 4-5 feet. It will be sprawling, diffuse bush, in contrast to Barcelona's erect stems. FD will be a lighter shade of red and scentless. It is possible that Barcelona has more petals than FD.

This post was edited by true-blue on Fri, Sep 12, 14 at 17:46

Add these color descriptions from HMF References.

List of Roses Now In Cultivation At Chateau Eléonore, CannesEDIT
Book (1898) Page(s) 12.
FRANCIS DUBREUIL Tea - Dubreuil, 1895
A fine velvety crimson red with reflections of a lighter shade inclined to pink.

Journal of Horticulture, Cottage Gardener and Country GentlemanEDIT
Magazine (1895) Page(s) 294.
Francis Dubreuil (Dubreuil) This is said to be the finest red Tea rose known, and is described as full flower of a fine form, opening very readily, perhaps too much so; of a crimson red colour, with the reverse of petals cerise, with a long egg-shaped bud of great beauty.

"Inclined to pink' and "cerise reverses" do not fit the current modern rose. Kim

Here is a picture and description of Souvenir de Therese Lovet from the 1993 Antique Rose Emporium Catalog, page 29.

Melissa

Souvenir de Therese Lovet description and photo from the 1995 Antique Rose Emporium catalog, page 37.

Melissa

Thank you, Melissa. Interesting that both seem planted along a fence. I was out browsing older rose books in hopes of finding either Francis or Therese. Both were conspicuous in their absences. Not even Mrs. Foote's Rose Book (1948) listed either, which is unusual. Mrs. Foote imported and grew everything she could lay hands on, including Eugenie Lamesch. Kim

It might have been great, with a good rootstock under it, but frankly, mah deah, it wasn't much of a rose.

Jeri

If there is some one with Therese in their garden in the USA it would be interesting to get a bud stick to Kim and see how it looks.

There is one in Florida, in a friend's garden, who is traveling and should be home this weekend. He's to let me know whether there is any wood available sometime this weekend to the beginning of the week. I'm pushing what I have left upon which to bud (including a couple of seedlings I was going to dump) so there is something ready in case the wood is available. Kim

Other images which popped up on a Google search:

http://search.aol.com/aol/imageDetails?s_it=imageDetails&q=souv+de+therese+levet&v_t=TB50CL-ff&b=image%3F%26s_qt%3Dsb%26q%3Dsouv%2Bde%2Btherese%2Blevet%26tb_oid%3D18-08-2013%26s_it%3DTB50CL-ff%26tb_mrud%3D18-08-2013%26tb_uuid%3D6295E30BBC35455DA4A5B1B7A0B9E3AC%26oreq%3D001fcc7f76dc4f27ba9576fee5b9792a&img=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencephoto.com%2Fimage%2F133939%2F350wm%2FC0070942-Rose_Rosa_Souvenir_de_Therese_Levet_-SPL.jpg&host=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencephoto.com%2Fmedia%2F133939%2Fview&width=127&height=85&thumbUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fencrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcTuzKgR-Z7HqXN9fgmGV1p5gdot72YVYiFFh9MBkmLtDD16rtbv6MN33m0&imgWidth=350&imgHeight=234&imgSize=14482&imgTitle=souv+de+therese+levet

http://search.aol.com/aol/imageDetails?s_it=imageDetails&q=souv+de+therese+levet&v_t=TB50CL-ff&b=image%3F%26s_qt%3Dsb%26q%3Dsouv%2Bde%2Btherese%2Blevet%26tb_oid%3D18-08-2013%26s_it%3DTB50CL-ff%26tb_mrud%3D18-08-2013%26tb_uuid%3D6295E30BBC35455DA4A5B1B7A0B9E3AC%26oreq%3D42cd9ae0dc894b47a420cf9e20c5d77c&img=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.countrysideroses.com%2Fcsr%2FRosePages%2FPictures%2FSouvdeThereseLevet.jpg&host=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.countrysideroses.com%2Fcsr%2FRosePages%2FSouvdeThereseLevet.html&width=127&height=85&thumbUrl=http%3A%2F%2Ft1.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcSp5FrX1d4wYs87fxad-gkmfq1j8MdBNb9PQyMDBhgPPJAoLnaOdUWx2w&imgWidth=420&imgHeight=280&imgSize=54553&imgTitle=souv+de+therese+levet

A rather suspicious one on Mistydown's site.

http://mistydowns.com.au/plant_display/display/1220-souvenir-de-therese-lovet

http://www.saorrosa.it/il-cuore-della-collezione/le-nostre-t%C3%A8-6/souvenir-de-th%C3%A9r%C3%A8se-levet/

Scroll down to Therese' photo.

http://www.rosesanciennesenfrance.org/fr/galerie_photos_roses-couleurs.htm

http://www.flickriver.com/search/souv+de+therese+levet/

Kim

I'll just mention that I think Macoboy's photo of 'Francis Dubreuil' looks- to my untrained eye- very much like the Flickr photo of 'Francis D' at the Adelaide Botanic Garden.

Both the leaves and blooms look similar to me.

Virginia

Macaboy's book came out in 1993, and since virtually everything called Francis Dubreuil from Sangerhausen, long considered THE last word in the world of roses, was actually Barcelona, I'm not surprised they are similar. Kim

Kim, both the Macoboy and Adelaide Botanic Garden photos show dark glossy leaves. Are you thinking they are 'Barcelona'?

Virginia

I see enough "blue" to the foliage in the Macaboy photo to not accept it as definitive. The Adelaide photo does have more "Tea-like" foliage, yes. Comparing that photo with those of Therese Levet, would you consider them "almost indistinguishable"? Now, someone in Adelaide needs to photograph what is currently there as FD, and, ideally, obtain bud wood. Hey David, are you around? Kim

I just replied to a lovely email from Mr. Mayberger of Roseglen Gardens concerning Francis Dubreuil. They obtained theirs from Heirloom. Two previous plants performed badly for them, but this one appears to have broken that pattern and is behaving itself. He graciously offered propagating material. I sent him photos of Barcelona/FD prickles, canes and foliage as well as the link to the Adelaide photo to see which plant parts most closely resemble his. I've emailed Ben Hanna of Heirloom to determine the provenance of their plant. Ben is usually pretty swift at responding, so there should be more definitive information concerning the origin of that plant fairly soon. Kim

Yes Kim I am around to serve(hahahaha). What would you like done, I have two people in South Australia or would you prefer I contact the Botanical Gardens direct.

Hi David! I was just wondering if there was anyone who could and would please find that Francis Dubreuil in the Adelaide garden, photograph the whole plant and its parts (foliage, prickles, wood, peduncles, buds, sepals, blooms, etc., to get a decent botanical look at the thing. That would make it a whole lot easier to compare against any other candidates. If that garden also contains a Souv. de Therese Levet and Barcelona, matching photos of them would also be wonderful. Ideally, all would then be uploaded to their appropriate pages on HMF. Imagine how neat it will be to be able to compare foliage, prickles, stems, buds and flowers, creating a definitive identification tool to tell them all apart. Tall order, I know, but if there is anyone interested and able, I think it would be quite an interesting task.

I'm unconvinced by the early statements that Francis and Therese are "indistinguishable". That sounds too much like the early statement that images of Irish Elegance sufficed for Irish Fireflame. They were both single HTs but they ARE different. Thanks! Kim

Kim, I have sent an email to Pat Toolan asking.

Thank you, David! Much appreciated! Kim

Kim, I'm suspicious of the 'indistinguishable' claim, also, but I would expect some similarity beyond 'Francis Dubreui' and 'Souv de Therese Levet' both being dark red Teas.

What I'd expect is that the plants would be similar in habit, and that their dark red flowers on the large-ish rosebushes would stand out (or 'pop' to use a more modern parlance) in the garden, giving a similar effect.

As garden plants they might be barely distinguishable, but even garden writers who mention the similarities between 'FD' and 'SdTL' seem to prefer FD's bloom form, and elegant bud shape.

Do I think the photo of 'FD' from the Adelaide Botanic Garden looks like photos I've seen of 'SdTL'? Not especially, but I think we all know enough about photos of roses to know that the same flower can look pretty different from itself after a few days. A lot depends on camera angle also.

And I'm standing by my intuition that Macoboy probably photographed the real 'FD'... The blue tinge is possibly from color processing of the photo, or even just due to the age of the book. I suspect that Macoboy probably knew the real Tea Rose 'Francis' from gardening in the Sydney area before the Sangerhausen 'FD' was introduced to Aussie gardens in 1981, though I have no way to prove or disprove that notion without knowing more about Macoboy himself.

I am so intrigued by the conflicting reports from the Tea Bag ladies about 'FD' at Sangerhausen in the early 2000's. A visitor in 2001 says the 'FD' rose she saw did not look like 'Barcelona' or an early Kordes HT; it quacked like a Tea Rose. Another report from the early 2000's (from Lynne?) said she couldn't tell the difference between 'FD' and 'Barcelona' when she visited Sangerhausen. This does make me wonder if they might have (or have had) more than one rose labeled 'Francis Dubreuil' during that time frame...

Kim, when did you first experience your revelation that 'Barcelona' and 'Francis-in-commerce-in-the-U.S.' were the same?

Virginia

That would have been prior to 1996, Virginia. Work got in the way of being able to spend my full days off out at The Huntington about that time and our Rose Festivals and Old Rose Symposium events ended about then.

As usual, David has been one step ahead of me. He contacted a friend there in Australia who grows Francis. These are the images Gail (David will have to fill in Gail's last name, but I genuinely thank them both for making the images available!) sent of her Francis Dubreuil.

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Is this the real Francis Dubreuil? I certainly don't know, but it DOES have darker green, glossier foliage which is far more "Tea-like" than our rose, and it is definitely NOT Barcelona. The "weak stems" may, or may not express themselves with longer, newer, thinner growth as the bush grows. Whatever it is, it definitely looks more as I would expect Francis to look than ours does.

I agree- definitely more Tea-like. And the buds are elegant, and the leaves are glossy- and round with the abrupt point at the end of the leaflets (apiculate?).

I've seen those round, glossy leaves a few times as I've been looking for 'FD' photos amongst the 'Barcelona' types. Definitely outnumbered by the 'Barcelona' plants, but there were a few others along the way.

It's labeled as 'Francis Dubreuil', it has the long, elegant, red buds, and the glossy, dark green foliage, and it just LOOKS the part. If it looks like the Adelaide 'FD', I'll be pretty tempted to say we've got the proverbial walking, quacking duck.

Oh, and just imagine if the Florida rose should also look like that!?

It's all very exciting!

Virginia

While that would be exciting, I'm not holding my breath. There hasn't been anything like that floating around this country needing a name. The only thing I have ever seen here as FD has been Barcelona. I haven't heard back from Ben nor Roseglen from this morning's emails, but it will be interesting. And, yes, I did post Gail's photos to HMF on the Francis Dubreuil page, with her permission. Kim

I don't have a good idea of how well 'FD' sold here in the States at the time when he was reasonably popular elsewhere. The economy had a few downturns early in the 20th C. that may have affected all rose sales.

From looking at rose catalogs and magazines, it seems that Dickson's crimson HT, 'Liberty' was extremely popular around that time, and was reportedly very fragrant. And there were other dark-red (a subjective description) Teas and HT's to compete for gardeners' attention and garden space.

I don't know my gardening history as well as I'd like to, but I imagine that by the time 'FD' was successfully imported to the U.S., American gardeners may have already succumbed to the allure of Hybrid Teas. Teas were just so last-century, dude...

Actually, I just had a look at the Sep 30 1905 Gardeners Chronicle & New Horticulturist, and was intrigued by a report of 'FD' being shown at the Royal Horticultural Society's joint meeting with the National Rose Society, and the reporter notes: "Among the varieties shown were remarked François Dubreuil (a fine, dark crimson bloom), Madame A. Mari, General Schablikine, Papillon, Gruss an Teplitz', varieties not known to many of our readers, but great acquisitions to our Rose-gardens."

From the above report, I'm left with the impression that eleven years after his debut, 'Francis D' was still not well-known in the U.K. I can't help but wonder if the British and American arbiters of taste just didn't care for his nodding habit, and preferred the stronger necks of HT's like 'Liberty' and 'Gruss an Teplitz'?

'Francis D' must have been introduced to Australia fairly early on, given that George Knight, writing in 1931 when he was in his early 50's mentioned planting 'FD' as a boy. Apparently, Knight started work in a rose nursery at age 12, a few years before 'FD' was introduced. He started his own nursery at age 18, a few years after 'FD' came out.

Very sensibly, it seems that Aussie gardeners didn't mind (or actually liked!) the nodding habits of Tea roses; as far as I can tell from this distance, 'FD' seems to have been more popular in Oz than in other Anglophone countries?

I also know very little about how 'FD' was received in his native land, or elsewhere in Europe.

I did read that he was planted at a chateau in Cannes that had a well-known rose garden, but I've no idea if that garden still exists, or if 'FD' still exists thereabouts. Won't somebody please volunteer to go to the French Riviera on a rose-hunting expedition? It's a tough assignment, but someone ought to make the sacrifice for the sake of knowledge!

Virginia

Virginia they have a FD at Roseraie de le Hay and another rosarium in David's list. Their shop sells the original in my opinion. As you see, they "fragrance" is light. I'd ignore the photo. As I believe they use a stock photo. The best bet will be someone in Europe buying it with Barcelona and see if there is any difference.

Concerning FD in US there are two blurbs in Andorra nurseries 1901 and 1903 (check HMF, reference tab for FD). And another less than a blurb mention in American Florist, Volume 18, 1902.

As for teas and UK. If you have GST rose book, I recommend you reading the mini chapter on teas. He lamented that he could with difficulty grow teas and there are few areas where they can be grown in the UK. He continues that in order to enjoy them one should go to France, southern Europe, South Africa etc.

Also I read a lovely description of "nodding" teas roses by Lux in this thread. Basically, I quote: "It is only at the very end of a bloom cycle, that all of the roses on a Tea rosebush nod

And finally the colour of FD. If one reads between the lines, one considers "colour" in an "historic context", 2-3 accounts of similarity with Souvenir de Thérèse Levet, "Several mentions of cherry reflexes" FD is probably crimson/amaranth in the centre with cerise reflexes.

Kim the photos are promising. I wish there was photo of the open flower :-)

Thanks, Bob. I received an email from my friend in Florida who is listed as growing Therese Levet. He says his notes relate how the tiny plant he received from Vintage was weak and has gone the way of weaklings in his garden. The name was sufficiently similar for him to confuse, but what now remains in his garden is "a nicely vigorous Souv. de Germaine de St. Pierre". Fortunately, jasperplants may have access to another Therese and is willing to explore the possibilities. (Thank you, Debby!).

I note your notes on the color descriptions, Bob, and remember the one listed in an earlier post about the coloring being "inclined to pink"?

Not to worry! Gail, the lovely lady who provided the photos of her plant, has written that as it grows in her garden, more photos of more fully developed blooms and foliage are easily provided. Bless her! Thanks. Kim

Here is a possible contender, I have a friend going there this coming Friday,
http://nationalcapital.gov.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=232:h2s5-old-parliament-house-gardens&catid=57:ql-menu-visiting&Itemid=200

Here is a link that might be useful: Old Parliament House

I'm sure you'll find the Souvenir sometime soon, yes I read the thread Levet thread, Synchronicity?!

Yes, I'm sure there is more pink somewhere in Francis, even though he doesn't want to admit it ;-)

Glen you mean the The Rex Hazlewood Rose Garden?

They have both FD and Irène Watts Kim, though neither Pink gruss nor Souvenir or Barcelona!

- Bob

" . . . the tiny plant he received from Vintage was weak and has gone the way of weaklings in his garden ... "

*** ALAS! The one we got from ARE decades ago was similarly a weakling. They said it might be slow to take off -- and it was. But after 6-7 years, we gave up on it.

After all that time, there wasn't even enough plant to use as kindling (the fate of most failed roses).

Jeri

Kim, forgot to say, I'm looking forward to Gail's pictures of FD.

Thanks, Bob, as am I! To the Francis and Irene questions, I would also love full plant and plant part photos of the following...

Archduke Joseph - to see if it's our Mons. Tillier

Bloomfield Abundance - to see if they grow Spray Cecile Brunner or the real Wichurana hybrid Captain Thomas bred.

Dame Edith Helen - to see if it is as vigorous in Australia as has been long reported.

Jacques Cartier - to see if they grow the same rose we grow under that name.

Juno - I wonder if this is the OGR or the infamous 1950 HT? Juno (HT) had curious, heavy, thick foliage which it passed on to Pink Favorite. It was sufficiently distinct to have been singled out by several breeders over the years for comment.

White Ensign - to see how this actually compares to Snowbird and Louise Avenue.

If I was able to go, I would photograph every part of each of these plants just to satisfy my curiosity.

Therese's inability to grow well own root (at least initially) could well be a main reason it fell from commerce as quickly as it seems to have. Kim

"Therese's inability to grow well own root (at least initially) could well be a main reason it fell from commerce as quickly as it seems to have. Kim"

*** So I was speculating. :-)

Jeri

Yes Bob and the "Macarthur Garden", both are listed in the link I placed and both have Francis listed. I have contacted a friend that volunteers there, awaiting reply and a friend visiting this weekend coming, he is going to the gardens to find what they have and will photo what he can.

Regards David.

Thanks for pointing that out to me, David. So many rose gardens, It's funny both Macarthur and Rex have both FD and Irène Watts :-) And all 3 (+The ladies rose garden) have Gruss an Aachen, though not the pink one ;-)

David, I'm glad y'all are following up on the Old Parliament House gardens. I had noted they were both listed as being grown there, but could not find any historical info about WHEN the roses would likely have been planted.

I'm guessing that this is one of the best times of year for roses over there?

Virginia

Bob, did we find a good reason to think Roseraie de l'Hay (AKA Roseraie du Val-de-Marne) has the real 'Francis' aside from their description of fragrance being light?

I did search the following web site for photos of 'FD' growing at the Roseraies du Val-de-Marne and Raymond Loubert, but to me both roses look like 'Barcelona': http://www.roseraieduvaldemarne.fr/roseraie_internet_2010/

These do not look like stock photos to me, so I suspect that 'FD' at these rose gardens is really 'Barcelona'.

I did see the Andorra catalog, and others listing 'FD', so I know that the real 'Francis' did make it to our shores; what I'd like to know is how successful those retailers were at selling him to American gardeners. I'd imagine that most customers for FD here and in the UK would have needed to grow him "under glass" if- as has been suggested- he wasn't a particularly good Tea for California's hot, dry summers.

I don't know about the suitability of our climate here in the Southern U.S. for growing 'Francis', but much of the South was impoverished for decades after Reconstruction ended in 1877, so I wonder how many Southern gardeners were buying the latest rose imports to try them out. Probably some folks did grow him successfully, and he might persist in a garden somewhere in the lower half of the country- perhaps known as "that red Tea" or even as 'Francis Dubreuil'.

Did you see that there are new photos of 'Francis' posted at HMF courtesy of the Tea Bag Ladies in Oz?

Virginia

Aren't they wonderful? Patricia is pretty wonderful, too. Bob, notice how those prickles are longer, more hooked, as if they were intended to be used to hook into tree growth so the plant can "climb"? Compared to the smaller, less hooked prickles I posted of our FD, you see the difference between the bush-type European OGR and the climbing type Asian species influence. Patricia's photos are of Tea-like prickles. Barcelona's are more HP-like. Kim

Billy has added even more information, including the provenance of Patricia's and her plants of FD, to the Comments section on HMF. Interesting! Kim

So Mr. Beales sent out 'Barcelona' as 'Francis Dubreuil'- at least to the U.S., while Sangerhausen sent out ____? as 'Francis Dubreuil'- at least to Australia in 1981.

Meanwhile how many gardens that housed a pre-impostor 'Francis Dubreuil' still have him hanging around?

Kim, I tried and I tried and I couldn't see much difference between the Aussie tea and your FD/ Barcelona prickles !

I was sort of relieved when I saw the comments on HMF :-)

This concords with all we've gleaned from the references on HMF and those posted by David.

Barcelona own root is smallish plant, 2 feet tall.

Virginia I don't know about Roseraie. David said he contacted them, I assume he's waiting for a reply.

The only source I found was Les Chemins de la Rose, one of David's possible beholders of the real FD. It's all in French. If you scroll down, you'll see the boutique pétals des roses.. They sell to all Europe.

It is there that I found the lightly scented Francis Dubreuil.. That's why I thought maybe some of our European members can get it and see :-)

If I'll find some time, I'll write to them all.

I saw the photos of FD, but as Patricia, Margaret & Billy said in the comments it is a "Barcelona".

From what I know teas can be grown in the UK against a sunny wall, obviously not in all regions, but some.

I assume FD at Sangerhausen was grown under glass.

I had read the comments from the Tea Bag ladies, but will go back to one of the first questions I asked about 'Francis Dubreuil', when this thread first began to drift from its original topic:

Was the original 'Francis Dubreuil' a "true Tea", or was he a "Hybrid Tea"? Or was he that other thing, a "Tea hybrid"?

The earliest descriptions of FD say his color was a dark red with pink or cerise or amaranth highlights. My assumption is that 'FD' was darker than other red Teas, but would not have looked terribly out of place hanging out with other reds such as 'Gen Gallieni', 'M. Tillier', 'Souv. de David d'Angers', 'Mlle Christine de Nouë', ''Corallina', 'Safrano a Fleurs Rouges', 'Princesse de Sagan', 'Bardou Job' and- of course- 'Souv de Therese Levet'.

Here's a 1901 review from a German rose reviewer about Francis:

"Francis Dubreuil (Dubreuil 1895) is not only one of the most excellent red Tea roses but also one of the best Tea roses of all. The flower is in fact only of medium size, and sometimes even small, but keeps extremely well. It lasts In bud form for a very long time, and is then at its most beautiful. The growth is vigorous and the crown is well branched. What I like most about this rose, is its capacity to produce solitary flowers on long, upright stems, I do not like roses in flower umbels (in clusters). Its floriferousness (flowering period) is very long, it lasts right up to the frosts."

That mention of "solitary flowers on long, upright stems" makes me think we might find some HP ancestry in Francis' background, no? And it accords well with other early mentions of FD having "diffuse growth"...

Here's an early discrepancy, though; the review above says 'FD' "lasts in bud form for a very long time, and is then at its most beautiful". Contrast that with an earlier British review- Francis "is described as full flower of a fine form, opening very readily, perhaps too much so"...

So if Francis was dark red and had diffuse growth, he seems to be quacking like an early HT, and not a "pure Tea"? Was he classified as a Tea because of his fragrance?

According to Guillot, 'FD' is descended from 'Souv de David d'Angers' (described as "deliciously fragrant" in 1864) who is in turn descended from 'Caroline', the Tea that may be synonymous with 'Bermuda Spice'.

Some early reviews of 'FD' say he is fragrant, most say nothing, and at least one reviewer says "not fragrant". This assortment of varying opinions shouldn't be surprising, given humans' different capacities for smell, and given the way odors can vary according to temperature, time of day, etc. The scent of Tea roses seems to be especially elusive, and elicits a confusion of descriptions, so I'm inclined to believe that the original Francis probably had a Tea scent and was fragrant to some people and not to others.

However, I think it's also possible that if there were an early confusion with at least one grower offering a different rose as 'Francis D', the differences in opinion about form and fragrance could stem from an early switcheroo. Just because there was a later mix-up with 'Barcelona' doesn't mean there wasn't also an earlier mix-up somewheres down the line. And if there were an earlier misidentification, this early imposter might be the rose that was later sent from Sangerhausen to Oz in 1981?

Another question I have relates to size. The Tea rose grown by Mr Knight just outside of Sydney was a large rose bush. The roses grown in the U.S. and Oz as FD today both seem to be more compact and HT-like (although the Aussie plant that hails from Sangerhausen seems to have a earlier HT look than 'Barcelona' does?)

I'm trying to get things straight in my own head, so if I'm off-course in my suppositions, please get me back on track.

Virginia

You don't sound off track to me, Virginia. Welcome to the "challenging" world of attempting to identify or find variable older roses from even the best descriptions. Kim

Even today, rose breeders may put their new introduction into whatever class of roses they wish.

I could see Mons. Dubreuil, in 1894 or so, saying to himself:

"Hmmmmm . . . Such a dark red rose won't be likely to stand out, among these newfangled Hybrid Teas. BUT! If I class it as a Tea Rose, it will be something quite different and remarkable among Teas!"

Jeri

Oh, absolutely, Jeri! While HTs were "the thing", by that point, "red" meant much more than variations of deep pink, cerise, "Amaranth", etc. Though the plants weren't the greatest, the flower colors were deeper, darker, richer and more often with fairly rich scents. Had something as "red" as many of the "red Teas" been sent out as a red HT, it would have been ignored in droves. Kim

Yes, absolutely to the notion that many classification decisions of rose breeders are determined by marketing concerns- will a dark red Tea sell better than yet another dark red HT? In the 1890's, it must have seemed like a good bet...

I was just reading this article by Wiliam Grant at Paul Barden's web site about early Hybrid Tea roses, and I feel a bit better about not really being able to figure out where the line gets drawn in terms of rose classes. I was amused by the thought that many modern HT's are such a mishmash, they probably have little or no Tea ancestry- all Hybrid, no Tea...

Having said that, I do like quite a few of those early HT's that show their Tea ancestry pretty well, and are actually rather attractive garden plants. They're probably also the only ones that are likely to be disease-free in my climate.

And speaking of my climate, the weather forecast is that next week we may get high temps that are under 80F. I am so thrilled at the prospect! Now, if we could just get you West Coast folks some rain...

Virginia

Here is a link that might be useful: William Grant's article on early HT's

I find it interesting that a sport of one class becomes a different class. Guessing that is part of what markets better

Kippy, that threw me for a loop when I first encounted that phenomenon... 'Mme Driout' is a Climbing Tea, and she's a sport of a Climbing HT? Huh???

I guess that made sense to somebody, but I don't see how it's more marketable.

I think we're about to have this thread reach its limit. Again.

If the discussion gets carried over to a new thread, would it be wise to change the subject line to reflect the 'Francis Dubreuil' focus, and perhaps include links to the first 2 parts of the discussion in the initial post?

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg082057486302.html

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg081406439752.html

Any thoughts?

Virginia

A very interesting sleuthing thread which is closing in on the post limit again. It doesn't really seem to have much to do with native species however, so if another continuation thread is created, could it have a subject line more related to its content (something about FD, Barcelona and other identification questions)?

Melissa

Melissa, et al-

Please see that I did start a new thread with a new subject line. I figure that now the subject line is about 'Francis Dubreuil', we can get back to discussing native species roses, right?

Just kidding- clearly this is an anything-goes kinda project...

Virginia

Virginia for the new thread put Francis Dubreuil/ Barcelona part III in the subject.

And it's a good idea to add the links to the previous threads.

For anyone interested in this discussion, Part III of this thread is here
Part I of this thread is here.

This post was edited by true-blue on Fri, Oct 10, 14 at 14:06