As they say in STNG, "Resistance Is Futile!"

Laura

Landlady is their two Sophie's Perpetual? RVR has one but it's listed as a china is that wrong? Would love to know since it's on my wish list for spring, Thanks

Sorry, but I don't understand your question. Wanna try again?
And/or look at SP on Vintage's website.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sophie's Perpetual at Vintage

Alana, I understand why you're confused. 'Sophie's Perpetual' is one of those ambiguous hybrids that is impossible to assign conclusively to a specific class due to certain "class bending" characteristics. Moreover, there is disagreement on whether she was once known under a different name.

The answer to your question is no: There are not 2 different roses known as SP. Based on their knowledge and observation, the folks at Vintage Gardens have opted to assign her to the Bourbon class. Others place her elsewhere.

Alana,

According to some recent scientific research analyzing roses' "volatile" components, this rose does not appear to be even related to the chinas. Thus not only can it not be a china, it can't be a bourbon either (as they are part china). Sophies Perpetual seems to be of European descent and is now thought to descend from R. damascena. So SP may be better classified as a damask perpetual.

I'm posting a link to the references page on Help Me Find which includes the article, "Volatile Components in Chinese Roses", Acta Hort 751, ISHS 2007, p. 401-6 (by Sasaki, Ueda, Wang, Watanabe, and Yomogida) which has this text:

"...some cultivars...did not emit these components [charactertic of Chinas] and 'Sophie's Perpetual', belonging to the China group, emitted beta-phenylethy alcohol and Nerol which R. damascena Miller also emitted...These cultivars might have no relation to Chinese roses and likely derived from European ancient species such as R. damascena."

The results appeared to be somewhat of a surprise, and it seems vendors haven't updated their classification of this rose which would reflect the new research. From reading more on the HMF references page, the assumption it was a china came in part from its perpetual flowering habit. However, the damask perpetual Stanwell Perpetual also has rapid repeat as well as a heavy scent not characteristic of chinas.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: Sophies Perpetual references page on HMF

Yikes, I always thought Stanwell Perpetual was a Spinossima.

OK thanks ya'll for letting me know that, would it still do great in my area, I was told chinas, teas and noisettes, thats why I picked her, hopefully she'll still do great!! :)

VG lists Stanwell P under Spinossimas, but spins are usually once-bloomers. HMF calls it a hybrid spi. It has always been known as a unique rose and it's parentage is unknown. Someday we will be able to stick a cutting under a microscope and all will be revealed. Until then, we are going on best guess on any number of OGRs.

Thanks Catsrose, that makes perfect sense. The Vintage Book of Roses has always been my go-to book about roses and to be honest my interest isn't quite as acute as to need to know much (if any) more than is included there. However, sometimes I do forget that there is a science and a level of interest that far surpasses mine and that roses will continue to be re-examined, re-cataloged, and re-identified forever. For me, they will probably stay stuck wherever they were when I got them, planted them, first smelled them, etc....:-)))

What an interesting thread....thanks to all~