Enchantress was an impulse purchase for me - when I saw it in September or October at ARE, its blooms were a very lovely dark color. When I brought it home to NE Houston, all of its blooms balled. In the cooler weather of the fall and spring, the blossoms on my plant were quite large and colored just as you describe. When I asked ARE about this balling tendency, they told me that it is indeed prone to balling in humid areas but can open nicely in drier places like San Antonio. I decided to shovel prune it.
Kathy

hmm, I never thought of San Antonio as a dry place. Maybe compared to Houston. I know Matt Orwat, the Texas A&M guy, has listed it as one of his favorites for his garden in Ft. Worth. It is blazing hot there (I used to live in Dallas) and I'd wondered whether those thin petals didn't crisp in the heat.

The breeder, John Cook, I think lived on the east coast and I'd think the summers there are humid as well.

Oh, well. Thanks for responding, Kathy.

I've had similar experiences with this rose, Gean, and one just like it, Souv de Francois Gaulain. I decided to wait for it to mature before making judgment. It is SO healthy, packed with leaves and such a gorgeous evergreen bush (nothing airy about this rose!), looking even better than azaleas, that I almost wouldn't mind if it never bloomed, but it does, and when it does, it's covered. This doesn't help you, I'm sure. I'm just really curious what this rose is going to become.

Sherry

Hopefully Enchantress will be happy in Dallas because I ordered it last week from Vintage. It should not ball here- the highs have been hovering between 102* to 106* and it is DRY. I'm curious to see how it does. About half my roses have developed sunburned leaves in the last two weeks. I'm watering daily and hoping it will rain soon.

BTW, Gean, mine never crisped in the heat, amazingly.

Sherry

Sabalmatt, I hope it does wonderfully for you. If the petals crisp, will you post later? Hope it rains soon for you and the temps cool down.

Sherry, when it's opened properly, it is beautiful, isn't it! Interesting that it doesn't crisp.

This is the kind of info that should go on HMF, I suppose.

Maybe someone else that grows it will post too.

Gean

My climate is hot and dry, although this summer has been cooler here than any since 1916. I have a fairly young plant of Enchantress and for the life of me can't remember whether it balled in our uncharacteristically cool and humid spring, but at the moment it has one bloom that is crisped and one that is still intact and quite beautiful. I suspect its favorite place might be the fall season in Southern California when it's cool, sunny and dry.

Ingrid

The thing that has bothered me about Enchantress is that it makes no sense to me that it balls so easily because of John Cook's comments from 1904 - "Reddish pink, fine form, one of my most beautiful darlings."

He lived and worked in Maryland, certainly not a dry and cool place in the summer.

So why would a rose that balls so easily (it only has 17-25 petals, a double) have been enough loved to survive when so many others of his didn't? He said it had "fine form" -it is beautiful, but a rose that so easily balls wouldn't be considered to have "fine form" - would it?

Anyway, that's why I asked the question to begin with. As I re read the comments under references on HMF last night, it suddenly hit me that this rose lived in a greenhouse in Maryland.

Under greenhouse conditions (no rain hitting it) it would be incredibly beautiful, enough so that he would go to the trouble in 1904 to change its name from Enchantress to Enchanter so as not to be confused with another rose that had previously been named Enchantress, a cream colored tea rose from William Paul that no longer exists, apparently.

So the other Enchantress is gone, but this one still exists. Here's the comment that makes me think this is true:

"Enchanter (Cook) has the colour of Testout, does not make any blind wood and brings forth more blooms under glass than any other variety."

"under glass" - that must be it. Otherwise, I just don't get it. Ingrid, I bet it will be very beautiful for you this fall.

A friend has pointed out to me that maybe as it matures it stops balling. I hope so and plan to keep it to find out. I also found an article on John Cook by Bill Grant from the 2007 American Rose Annual on the Gold Coast Heritage Rose site which talked a little about Cook's business in Baltimore. Mr. Cook had a lot of greenhouses, it seems.

The stories of roses and breeders are part of the allure of old roses. One poignant picture from this article by Bill Grant says that when John Cook died in 1941 a plaque reading, "John Cook, a renowned rosarian worthy of this honor whose fame will never die" was placed in a garden dedicated to his memory in Baltimore.

The plaque was discovered in 1989 under some unmown grass in the garden where all the roses had died. His descendants re established the memorial in 1989. I wonder if it's still there now.

To me it's poignant because I think of all of the noted rosarians that have died in recent years and the passing of nurseries that we support. "All flesh is like grass," as the psalmist said.

The roses John Cook bred are some that some still grow. They are beautiful plants, but I like to remember and know a little of the people whose life work they were. Mr. Cook said Radiance was a favorite because "it is so hardy and popular and goes everywhere. It broadcasts beauty." Enchantress wasn't as popular as its child, Radiance. Maybe because of that balling problem.

Thanks for bearing with me. Sign of old age, waxing philosophically and endlessly. Gean

Hmm, mine has 80 petals. I counted, and it does crisp a bit. :))

Sherry

Sherry, thanks for counting petals. I've counted too and as different as our climates are, my petal count is roughly 80 on three different blooms as well. I'll send the pics to HMF too so they can change their petal count.

I'm posting pictures of the rose on the antique gallery to show how it's put together. The way the petals bundle (is that the right term?) is probably another reason it doesn't fully open well. Thanks so much, Sherry! It was fun to do this with you. Gean

I just posted all of those pictures; here's the link if anyone wants to see the way this rose goes together.

Here is a link that might be useful: Enchantress

I decided to count petals on mine too. The bloom that had been almost completely fresh yesterday crumpled to bits in my hand today and looked like potpourri. As best as I can tell my bloom had 62 petals. I have a feeling that its having fewer petals may have been due to my dry heat. Of course, I blame practically everything on the dry heat!

Ingrid

Those outer petals are so thin, I can imagine that the dry heat would really suck the moisture out of them so as to crumple them. But then moisture causes those thin silvery petals to turn brown easily and to ball up.

Catch 22 rose.

Prima donna rose. But such healthy foliage and blooming power.

So Ingrid, then if we work this principle backwards, do the roses that do well in your heat have really thick outer petals? What are the ones that do well for you like?

The roses under glass is quite likely scenario in the beginning of the century. Even now a lot of rose breeding happens in the greenhouses, florist roses do not see that much of the open fields even now. Over here, where the flower industry is quite elaborate, a lot of plants are grown in the greenhouses, even if they are meant for outside planting.

Regarding philosophy, what strikes me as a bit odd, is that I get an impression that American rose sellers have trouble staying afloat, when over here things seem to be just usual, although we also have the glorified crisis. That just not only the big companies, but small growers seem to cope quite well also, I buy my plants from quite a few family run businesses and all are staying it seems.

Another thing that strikes me as odd, is that quite a few European rose breeder companies are there for generations, Kordes, Dutcher, Tantau to name a few, regardless of all the wars and crisis of their time. Of course, quite some expired with time, but is there any American rose breeder company which is around for a couple of generations?

This has been a terrifically interesting thread and exactly the reason why I love this rose forum. Gean, you always seem to touch on some fascinating aspects and you clearly have an enquiring curiosity from which we all benefit. Keep rambling on - I for one, always look forward to reading your postings.
Regarding the seemingly numerous closures of rose nurseries in the US, I am thinking that this is a scenario which has certainly not run its course. This year, Peter Beales business, while not going under, has certainly been anxious - postings on their rose forum have revealed worries regarding the future of the company and an awareness that many will go under unless they are able to expand or innovate. A typical european solution is to seek strength in numbers, by strategic partnerships, cooperatives and shared resources. Also, I am susoecting we have a slightly less harsh social system where we tend to pay a higher proportion of our income in taxes, in order to maintain some rudimentary (but vital) safety nets in health, welfare benefits, education and public services etc. Of course, whether these ideals remain in place under the increasingly individual and right-wing regimes across europe, remains to be seen. The US, at least to me, still seems like a young and continually evolving country without the (sometimes stifling ) weight of history this side of the atlantic.
The UK imported the Garden Centre system from the US in the 1960's and since then, small nurseries have been continually up against the wall - certainly in the 80's and 90's, many garden centres where actually set up by venture capitalists, rather than horticulturists, which points the way the horticultural industry as a whole is going. We are seeing a picture which is divided between some very tiny operations with a specialist clientale and a massively industrialised system with a few huge corporations which have the capital to continue expansion. Farming, which has immense implications for everyone, is even more under the cosh - in the UK, we have lost over 30,000 middle sized dairy farms and a couple of years ago, the very last firm selling outdoor tomatos in Guernsey closed - unless you grown your own, it is virtually impossible to taste a tomato not grown hydroponically in rockwool! As for roses, if we lose nurseries like Beales, we risk being able to only grow a handful of heavily publicised roses promoted by a few corporate interests - The 'Tescoification' of horticulture (they have already bought out a once family-run, medium sized garden centre business, Dobbies). Resisting the selling and supporting small nurseries, is something we can all do.

Don't worry campanula, I am sure that if even every single old rose farm closes in UK, there will be a Dutchie to sell you your plants... for appropriate price... And I am only half joking... x)

It is a bit interestingly arranged here in NL. We do have a lot of mass flower production farms, with acres of greenhouses and bulb fields, but all that largely goes as export. It is ridiculous, but Dutch grown bulbs is easier to buy in US, than in NL! We do get our share as seasonal packages in all sorts of supermarkets and hardware stores, as well as garden centers, but if you are looking for something specific, none of those huge companies bothers with retail. Big garden centers get their stuff from wholesalers, but a lot of the supply comes also from the smaller growers. Also often even smaller growers do only wholesale themselves and the actual rare plants I buy from the specific garden centers that specialize in a bit more odd plants. What probably also helps that in NL online commerce is something that probably 90% of the population uses, so some small businesses live from that alone.

I suppose if all comes down to market sorting itself out. For a big industry company it is too much of a hassle to obtain for me some rare weed, which has 3 sentence name in Latin only and probably only a handful of people are aware that it exists. That leaves a niche for the smaller companies to empty my pockets. x) Also, in the age of image and lifestyle, a smart businessman probably can even sell the same weed to suburbia by calling it "A charming herb from the heart of France". :D

harborrose, your question to me is an interesting one but one that is difficult to answer. Some roses, like Le Vesuve, which have what I consider to be relatively thin petals, do extremely well here. So does a thick-petaled rose like Mrs. Dudley Cross. Mr. Bluebird, with small, almost single blooms, which looks so ethereal, is one of my best roses in the heat even though I've had it less than a year and it was a band. My (uneducated) guess is that it may have something to do with the ancestry of the roses i.e. the climate of their origin. This of course is vastly complicated by the fact that hybrids have many different origins. Why do Queen Nefertiti and Cottage Rose do well here, even though the petals don't seem to differ substantially from Abraham Darby or Harlow Carr, who were disasters here? If I knew, I wouldn't have to garden with the "buy them and keep or buy them and throw them away" principle. I've had the best luck with the teas, Austins, small Bourbons and Chinas, so I tend to seek them out first and foremost. I avoid hybrid musks and northern European roses. When all is said and done though, it's a bit of a crap shoot.

Ingrid

Elmire, I wish that there were American breeders that had the stability of rose breeding as a family business. If it were passed from generation to generation, the knowledge base, the land, greenhouses, would pass also.

One business I know of that is family run is Petals of the Past in Alabama. They don't breed roses that I'm aware of, but the father was the state fruit horticulturalist for many years; the son went to Texas A&M and learned about old roses and has opened a business that draws on his father's expertise as well as his own in old roses. His wife is a horticulturalist as well; I think her expertise is finding new plants. His mother, I think, does the plant propogation.

Because of his intelligence in marketing and the work of his entire family in this business, I always thought that perhaps it would succeed. He's one that knows to call a weed, "A charming herb from the heart of France". I myself don't know of others; perhaps others do.

Campanula, thank you for your generous comment about this thread. My daughter who is 12 did not exactly see the point of photographing and counting petals on a rose, but it was very fun for me.

Ingrid, I think that one day when you figure it all out you should write a book. :) I know, you don't have time...

Thank you, Gean

And Thrips has been ruled out? Another reason for balling blooms, at least in my garden. The damaged petal edges stick together and prevent the flower from opening with beauty.

Hoovb, the other roses I have/had that were attacked by thrips also looked brown and ugly. Enchantress doesn't have the brown on her when she balls in my garden. But I love her anyway.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

I won't have a problem with her blooms balling this summer, as I think she's croaked. G. Nabonnand may still be alive, but I think the rest of the teas or heavily tea influenced roses are gone: Enchantress, Devoniensis, Mme. Melanie Willermoz and Snowbird. Sad.

Oh, Gean, I'm so sorry, but you gave it a good try. Now you have some room for gallicas and albas and...

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Thanks, Sherry; that's sweet. Maybe they'll come back from the roots. I am going to try again on Devoniensis- I really love that rose. Maybe keep it in a pot. Post pics of your Enchantress so I can love it from afar!