Hi Camp: I love your rambling, I find it very soothing. Wildflowers? I can collect seeds while walking in the woods in late fall, and sow them in my garden in spring time ... save money that way.

One time I bought $40 worth of wild-flower seeds to sown in my garden. My husband volunteered to clean-out the "weeds" in that bed, and killed all my newly sprouted wildflowers! He thought Basyes Blueberry rose is a weed too, and was about to pull that off.

I just had a talk with my neighbor. She spent money planting Rose of Sharon (blue, pink, white), but they shed seeds and sprouted all over her lawn. So she spent $250 to kill those large bushes. I have a double-blue Rose of Sharon that doesn't sow seeds ... that one is quite rare. I use that in my roses-bouquet. See the blue in the vase:

Well, the history and character of T. sprengeri are pretty darn interesting (scrolling down to its entry in the link below). That by itself is really something to anticipate, Camps. I only have T. bakeri 'Lilac Wonder', being winter-chill deprived here. I should research which other tulips of the species come back and rebloom with minimal chill -- the species are more charming and attractive to me than the hybrid varieties (which are a bust here anyway -- I refuse, on general principles, to refrigerate bulbs to make them bloom).

Here is a link that might be useful: Species tulips

Ramble on to your heart's content.

Somebody gave me some cleome seeds. Also icelandic poppies. Also lupine, And chamomile. And blue flax. If I try to grow things by seeds, I can't. So I just tossed these hither and yon and they all came up and dropped more seeds and so on and so on. Now I'm trying to isolate them to a patch of meadow. It is glorious and completely self-maintaining. I will be happy to send you some. Clear a 10x10 square (meters or feet or miles) and just toss them in and wait til spring.

It looks purple...mauve to be specific.
I have a Rose of Sharon 'Althea'.
Flowers rarely last more than 1 day ( a la Hibiscus )

This post was edited by mauvegirl8 on Wed, Jul 31, 13 at 23:54

Stay with us, Suzy. Many of us post about non-rose gardening here, taking advantage of the impressive amount of knowledge forum members possess, and not infrequently about non-gardening topics: I remember a rant of my own about my daughter's horrible school transportation service. So keep it up.

Strawberry, Rose of Sharon covers a lot of different plants. From Hibiscus to Malva (very much a weed) to a shrub. One of those plants that it is probably better to know the species name than the common one. We pulled out 3 trash barrels of Malva this spring-but it is pretty when in bloom.

I am with you Cats, not a chance I am going to force bulbs. Either they survive and naturalize or they are done. I have to admit I have been checking the stores to see if they have bulbs in yet, I am going to spread some used hay and cover with wood chips, would much rather have the bulbs in before I do this.

Camps, I have to admit to spotting a good looking plant hanging over the sidewalk and dropping seeds....and picking them up. Or taking my own spent annuals and letting them dry and reseed some where else. I will have another bumper crop of columbines, probably 4 O'clocks everywhere and poppies. Once it rains or gets close to raining, I will pop in the sweet peas and hollyhock seeds I have set aside. I know the birds and the chickens get a lot of the seed I put out, but some still makes it.

And of course there are some nice sunflowers that come back from the bird seed or from the previous years plants

This is rambling too but I remember your post about perennials and how everyone said they were sick of daylilies and hostas. I didn't think much about it until my first trip across the US and saw it for myself. Everywhere we went once we got past the southwest was orange daylilies and hostas. It seemed strange to me to see plants like that growing without irrigation. No yellow daylilies like you see here. Just the same orange ones. I loved the hostas because we can't grow them here where there is no chill.

So I like your wildflower idea because it's something different and seed won't cost too much. I would think you wouldn't have to add much soil improvements to get them to succeed. I hope you can get some areas of bulbs going too. I always thought that was pretty with trees. I can't imagine what I would do with that much space. I always feel bad about the discarded plants when I have to divide them. There is no room to keep them all. Especially the iris which multiplies like rabbits. I would love to have the room to plant them in big beds or even let them go wild. Everything has to be maintained in its area or else the whole garden just begins to look like a giant tangle and the stronger plants choke out the weaker ones. Just one month away from it on vacation and it looks unruly already.

Wild flowers in the grass out in front of the wooded area sounds wonderful. I saw many areas like that along the blue ridge parkway. And in Great Smoky Mtn. Natnl. Park, they have some old cabins preserved in clearings in the woods which have some wildflowers and it makes all the difference having them around those old homesteads. I imagine that there must have been flowers gardens there once but now it's all wild again. It's nice sitting on the porch of those homes and listening to the wind and the birds and the rain. I was trying to imagine living there. Your wildflowers are always going to be there as a gift to someone a hundred years from now.

someones picture of one of the cabins in the fall season

Yes, yes, yes, please plant wildflowers and update us - even better, post pictures! I have a soft spot for grape muscari and snowdrops, which multiply so well. Any room for them in your garden? Oh yes, and Lily of the Valley. Who knows, if you get lots of them you might be able to sell bouquets ;)

I used to live in Sweden and every spring, the florists would sell bunches of Lily of the Valley and sweet peas. Beautiful, old fashioned posies that smelled wonderful.

Oh campanula, do have a bluebell woods. I dream of them knowing those beauties would not survive coastal California but i long for them anyway and will derive great vicarious pleasure knowing you will have one.

There is a scene in i believe "Howard's End" where they walk through a bluebell wood and it is my idea of an earthly paradise.

Diane

How can anyone forget the "Blue Bell" scene in Howard's End?We should have enough chill here for them but only a few of the ones I planted come up. I have difficulty timing when I plant wildflowers. The last mix I used only the Primroses came up.
Camp go ahead and post here roses or no. I'd hate for you to disappear.

I agree with everyone else, I don't care if you're writing about roses or not Camp, you have to stay here!

I must confess to never having seen 'Howard's End' but I recently saw a Nature program about the remaining wild lands in England and it was magical, especially the part about the bluebell forests. Sad that they are disappearing due to over harvesting of the wild bulbs, but I'm happy to hear you're getting seeds even though they are expensive.

So how about a picture trade? You plant beautiful English wildflowers and bulbs for us to enjoy, and I'll share the California meadow that I'm in the process of making. Deal?

As to the overwhelming nature of a large lot that needs to be tamed, I think the best way to go is start small and close to the domicile and then move outwards as you complete each project. While at the same time scattering hardy seeds farther away to get color going in the wilder parts. Have I followed this advice? Of course not! But I did recently create a new garden area close to the house, and I've been gathering seeds from it and tossing them out into the meadow to be.

Please, please stay here and post about anything you want! Every time I see a new post from you I immediately open it (I just did now, despite the fact that I had left a hose running almost full on at the bottom of my Mme Caroline Testout, on the theory that I would only let it run while I picked up the newspapers and put out the bird seed & peanuts for our flocks of song birds, mourning doves, wild pigeons, & crows - I just ran out there, and of course the water was streaming down the driveway to the sidewalk, and passersby were giving me weird looks.

Wildflowers - of course you have such a benign climate for them. We have wildflowers up where our cabin is in No California, but they are different ones than grow there, I'm sure - poppies, and other things that like wet (in this case freezing) winters and hot dry summers. I go for walks and see so many growing which I have no idea who they are. June and July seems to be the Spring season up there (3500 feet).

Here is a pic I took of a really pretty one. I posted it on the native plant forum, and they told me it is a wild penstemon. Isn't it pretty? Anyway, I am certainly looking forward to stories from you of all of your adventures in the woods -

Jackie

Hi Jackie: I'm a sucker for blue plants, I love your pic. of wild blue penstemon. I have red penstemon in my garden, very drought tolerant.

Below is my shrub of Double-Blue Rose of Sharon, which I use in bouquets ... blooms last longer than the single-type. This shrub I got from my Mom, it's rare since it doesn't seed itself on the lawn like other Rose of Sharons. My soil is alkaline, pH 7.7, so it's not as blue as it should.

I had double-purple Rose of Sharon, also doesn't sow seeds which died during my spring flood. I miss that one, but local nurseries only sell the single invasive types that sow seeds. Springhill Nursery sells the "Blue Chiffon" Rose of Sharon that I have for $30, see link below:

Here is a link that might be useful: Blue chiffon Rose of Sharon

Yes, stay, and tell us about your successes (and your failures! we love your failures!!!).

We have California poppies aplenty in the Sacramento cemetery garden. I scattered their seeds a couple of springs and now they are everywhere. Glorious in the spring but then floppy and trashy-looking. I have the luxury of free labor - convicts on a Sheriff's crew who work, or laze about, at my direction - and I have them cut the poppies to the ground. They have already rebloomed this year. One more cutback and there will be a fall bloom, too, although never with as intense color and vigorous growth as the first spring flush.

I made an ill-fated attempt to have a wildflower meadow in one of the cemetery plots. It was impossible to distinguish weeds from flowers - and even harder to stop people from trying to clean things up. A few flowers did well but then, in our dry summer, began to look really weedy themselves. The following year, only a few reseeded, amidst many weeds. I think that is the reality of meadows - the best-adapted plants assert themselves and the weaklings fade away.

I brought in nigella seeds from my garden to the cemetery, where they thrive. The plants look good for a bit but immediately set their balloon-like seed heads and dry out, looking very unkempt.

We have worked and worked to establish the low blue lupine and tall yellow bush lupine. Wildflowers are so picky about where they will grow. Turns out the blue lupine wants bare soil and some shade. We mulch, not their preference at all. The yellow bush lupine were spectacular this spring after three years in the ground - but then dried up and looked nasty and weedy. We hope they come back.

Jackie, that wild penstemon is lovely and would probably do well in the cemetery, although my bet is that it wouldn't like our mulch either. I've tried to grow it at home and my clay soil just doesn't provide enough drainage. The cemetery is on a sand hill so drainage is not usually an issue.

The illusion is that wildflowers (and annuals that self-seed) are carefree and easy. Not my experience, but certainly an interesting pursuit.
Anita

Hi Anita: Thanks for the info! I don't use mulch, which explains why plants become invasive here. After much searching, I found the "Purple Ruffles" Rose of Sharon that I lost during spring flood .... except it's in Canada.

I no longer buy Rose of Sharon from local nursery, one time I bought gallon-sizes of pink and red double-Rose-of-Sharon from Meijers, and they turned out to be single-white blooms, and sow invasive seeds.

So in 2004 I checked for the existing blooms before I buy ... got a double-Lavender-Chiffon Rose of Sharon from Meijers. But it died during 2004 drought. The blue-chiffon R.of Sharon in the vase becomes more blue as it ages, looks good for several days.

Rose of Sharon, once established is very drought-tolerant, the roots extend 3 to 4 feet like a long rope. They are covered with blooms from July to late October (4 months). Below is the link to "Purple Ruffles" Rose of Sharon, I really miss that one which I got from my Mom's garden. She sold her house.

Here is a link that might be useful: Purple ruffles Rose of Sharon

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Aug 1, 13 at 13:59

As implied by my first reply, though not explicitly said, campanula, please do keep posting. Obviously, we are all more than willing and even eager to talk about other than roses! Count me in, especially, for wanting to hear about your wildflower meadow experiences. Not to mention that I count on tips from you for new, interesting plants to grow (lookin' into those tulips even now).

Hi Catspa: Tulips like it dry ... I find out too late after losing $$$. The ones that survive for several years were the ones I planted next to trees.

Daffodils can take spring flood, but tulips can't. Below are tulips planted next to my cherry tree:

Right then, for your kind and considered responses, I will try to reply:
Strawbs - you are always so complimentary that I get a faint blush going (and I am not known for gardening modesty) - so thank you. By the way, I had a bit of a thing for those hardy hibiscus and I fail to see how the 'doubles' could be considered an improvement on the singles....and even then, they look pretty scabby after a couple of weeks unless you are on top of the deadheading. That, and the deathly protracted start (still looked fossilised in May) kind of ensured that I only have 1 left - the obvious Bluebird.
CatsP - too right, only a crazed obsessive would keep bulbs in the fridge (and the posts come rollin' in) although there are far too many seeds in mine. I buy little brown envelopes to keep them in and when I went to buy some more, the stationer's office had them hidden under the counter - summat about drug-dealers!
CatsR - well obviously, you can grow seeds! Very little difference between throwing them on the ground or throwing them in a pot or tray
MauveG - over here, we have always meant St.John's Wort or shrubby hypericum when we talk about Rose of Sharon (and I am always shunted off to Steinbecks epic, Grapes of Wrath (Rosasharn) when I hear the word)
Ah thanks, Melissa, knew I could count on ya (as a fellow rambler of some distinction)
Kips, despite the vast differences (culturally and geographically) between you and me, I am amzed how often we are on the same page (of course, I am much lazier than you).Hmmm, mallow is not likely to be making my wildflower lists either having tortured me for a decade.
Yep, Kitty - the space is kinda terrifying but also liberating because it is all so huge and beyond the pale that I can have ridiculously low standards ( I regularly bully myself at home or the allotment). As for preserving a patch of beauty, I surely hope so.The timescale is epic - the local forestry group suggests doing 5 year, 10 year and 50 year plans (while I had thought waiting through a winter was the height of patience)
Rabbit - I will make an effort to use my camera. Apparently, some famous galanthophile ( Heyrick Greatorex) about a mile away (in some reclusive falling-down cottage with a great snowdrop wood) and the whole area, including parts of our wood, is full of stray snowdrops (supposedly rare and unique but not so as I could tell!). Nevertheless, will be looking at them a bit harder next year.
Fogrose, I thought you might have a special affinity for woodland - it has the same mysterious potency as fog and mist. The bluebell wood has immense resonance in the UK - not least because we had the smallest amount of woodland in Europe - at the worst, we had less than 10% tree cover, compared to around 40% for almost every other European country. The establishment of a Forestry Commission after WW1 halted the decline until we have around 15% cover. An ill-thought out idea to sell off our woodlands to private investors was massively opposed and fortunately abandoned (for now)However, it galvanised a huge number of people (including Mr.Camps and I) to take a deeper interest in our natural environment and definitely try to safeguard a tiny bit of habitat (wetland, marsh and marginal plantation).
Pam, I have covered my bases by buying a few bulbs which have been dug from cultivated stock -the ethics of buying wildflowers are murky...but also, because of costs and scale, buying 20grams of seeds, although they will take around 4 years to flower. I am going to sow mine in pots using some of the woodland soil, plus a good amount of leafmould (anything humusy would do though) and I am going to leave under one of the trees for the winter and probably the next season, only transplanting in the 3rd year.....but of course, this is all vague hypotheses, wild hope and a regular call-out for forum help.
PeachyMo - yep, you've got it - too many bulbs being stripped from the wild (also why tulipa sprengeri went extinct).Not only are there unscrupulous villains despoiling the countryside, they are ripping us off too, often selling the spanish hooligans or 'spanglish' intermediate hybrids. Ho, I will be starting small alright! I planted a (huge) rose, a few solomon's seal, violets, epimediums. Stood back to admire....and nearly fell over laughing....but hey, baby steps.
Lovely Jacqueline - have already been mithering over on the perennial forum for penstemon info because I am definitely going to plant some. I am vaguely following the style of William Robinson - hardy perennial plants for the wild garden....but not necessarilynative or naturalised plants.....just ones which look right and will thrive in a rough and tumble environment without much intervention. Perfect!
Well Hey, Anita - whenever I have seen cemetery pictures, I am always drawn to the cheerfully iconic poppies - I am going to throw them about with enthusiasm here. I guess this will be the first test of how my environmental neighbours in a nearby meadow feel - I hope I can convince them that diversity is a good thing as long as responsibility is exercised.
I agree - a wildflower meadow is not the easy project - I certainly am not planning on undertaking it here because the topsoil is impossibly rich and fertile.....but there are possibilities for growing some good prairie species - Joe Pye Weed (hemp agrimony), fireweed, meadowsweet, goldenrod and various sedges flourish in the water meadows while the woodland will, I hope, get the same type of treatment ( a kind of rising layer, from the tiny early spring bulbs and ephemerals, to taller aquilegias and cranesbills, finally climaxing with the tall umbellifers, foxgloves, aconitums, thalictrums.....and so on - in a kind of interspersed jumble of reeds and grasses, understorey shrubs and new saplings. Well, that it the hopeful plan.
Lupines only last for 5 minutes for me, too.

My first rose has already been planted (Paul's Himalayan Blush)......so obviously, they are not as out of favour as all that

Suzy, do not think of leaving or I will haunt you in your dreams. You're a fixture here and it matters not what you waffle or maunder or moan about. It wouldn't be the same without you and that's that. I think we all get tired of roses sometimes, and veer off into pets and children and neighbors and other plants, so don't fret. We need to know what happens to you in your new home in the woods, so you must see it's obligatory for you to stay.

Ingrid

I'd hate to miss you, roses or no roses. But you will grow ayrshire ramblers, sweet briars and dog roses in your wood, won't you?

My heavy clay soil is also too rich in general for wildflowers but hypericum, lady's bedstraw, ox-eye daisies, cowslips, wood anemones, sweet woodruff, musk mallows, wood cranesbills, and wild strawberries selfseed everywhere, even in rich border soil, especially if it's on the dry side. Raspberries go wild easily, too. My wood is too small for woodbine, a curse here, but with your space you may perhaps let it loose.

I've tried to establish rarer (to me, not rare in general) plants with plugs in the few patches of dry and poor soil, meadow saxifrages, harebells and sticky catchfly. The result has been so-so as plug plants are expensive and I couldn't afford many enough for them to selfseed as much as I hoped. Solomon's Seal and convallarias take care of themselves and thrive in shade.

I've tried many wild tulips but deer have eaten them all.

Marianese,

I'm so glad you mentioned that the tulips are at risk from woodland creatures. I was reluctant to mention it as perhaps being too discouraging but "to be forewarned is to be forearmed". Camp's rare tulips deserve better than to be deer dessert.

Camps,

You really don't want to leave us do you? And we love your posts. So stay. Anyway, plums, raspberries, strawberries, etc. are in the Rosaceae. I would love to learn more about your experiences with them and with your woodland.

Cath

I can't imagine a garden without some wildflowers !

I am fond of many native ones here -- mertensia virginiana is our local version of bluebells, foamflower, bloodroot, dicentra, wild spotted geraniums, Great Solomon's Seal, wood asters etc for the shady places; Echinacea, Black-eyed susans, Shasta Daisies, in sunnier spots. I've unfortunately found a few "wildflowers" spread like weeds and wish never planted -- the wild sweet violets and Queen Anne's Lace, for instance, but most are welcome. I love many non-natives as well including your hyacinoides non-scripta and primroses. Bulbs of course too.

Planting diversity makes a garden special and extends the flowering season. Plus for spots where roses won't thrive -- too much shade, wet, acidic, root competition, low fertility, etc -- it's good to plant other things!

Hi Camp..you better hang around here. How else will I know if my chuckler is still working.
Anyhoo..can you grow wild lilac? It grows slightly wildly here. The blooms look like regular lilac but instead of 6-9" blooms they are miniature as in 1". With oodles of blooms crammed in the 1". They are evergreen...oh and non-invasive.
Tulip Bulbs...here they have to be planted near the house or barn, else something digs them up and they deteriorate. I wonder which critters do that. Do you have bulb eating varmint? Daffies are not disturbed by anything..
Wildflowers...well I tend to get confused and weed them.
Have a great weekend. Take care.
Jeannie

Oh My----please don't leave us---I always look forward to your posts---I love your sense of humor---and I'm so looking forward to your woodland garden----you mentioned Paul's Himalayan Blush------is that the same as my Paul's Himalayan Musk ??----if so you will be thrilled-----my PHM has been a joy every spring but I'm afraid the RRD has invaded that precious old plant which saddens me terribly----I love all the wiidflowers--in fact when my present DH and I were married we picked a lovely bouquet of Queen Ann's Lace and Trailing Arbutus---we were married by a Justice of the Peace in a small town near my DH's cabin in the Pocono Mtns---the JP was closing for the week-end and our license was running out so it was a rather rushed affair---LOL--LOL--I thought the bouquet was beautiful.
Please keep us posted with your progress----You wouldn't want to make an old lady sad now would you ? I would be sad without you on this forum.

Florence

You don't think roses would grow around the horsebox? I can't imagine you not having roses.

Ha, Mariannese and Cath - not to worry - I have a cunning plan. There is a reason why a single T.sprengeri bulb costs a small fortune (8 pounds or12 dollars) - not only are they tiny little things, they have 'dropper' roots which pull the bulbs so deep into the ground they are almost impossible to harvest. Also, ours is a tiny little 5 acre copse (obviously gigantic to us) but much less inviting to the water deer than the other wood across the meadows (not least because we are in there with brushcutters and mowers (and a shouty grand-daughter and ancient dog) Course, this might be hopeful denial on my part...........Mariannese, your wood is exactly what I am hoping to achieve here - and certainly, Splendens will be arriving this autumn, after being threaded through old tomato supports to keep it in hand - obviously, I won't get away with that sort of thing for another year.
Grief, of course I don't want to leave this forum - it's like you are my mates (and friends let other friends talk rubbish sometimes). For sure, there will be roses in the woods too.....and even more reason to try those whoppers I could only fantasise about. Because it is essentially neglected poplar, the canopy is both ridiculously high and fine - even though bramble is the dominant understorey, grasses still flourish (so have been spritzing around the densest bits with broadleaf herbicides and trying not to feel too murderous).
Oh Florence, what a lovely story - rest assured, Queen Anne's Lace grows in wild profusion, along with various other graceful umbels, some of them taller than I am. I surely did mean Paul's Himalayan Musk (a rose I had desired for many years).
Lori, because we had such a long isolating ice-age (and as an island), it has always been a bit of a given that our native flora and fauna is somewhat lacking in both interest and diversity.....but of course, that assumption was largely my ignorance....which I am striving to correct. Also I am re-reading William Robinson's The Wild Garden...and finding much to be of use (I know Cath is a reader of Wm Robinson's decisive prose, too). And what a great learning curve this is.
Ingrid, way back in the day, you were one of the very first replies I ever had -I can still remember your post - a terrible warning about the true face of rosemania.....it didn't save me though. Here for the duration, now - and ARF soap-opera -the pets, spats, flounces, sulks, whines, rants as well as the support and enthusiam of fellow travellers.

Camps, have you ever grown martagons? I keep getting drawn to them on Hyde's website but it's a pricey gamble if you don't know how they do!!

I surely have, Caldonbeck. Have a go - they really do take a full season to settle in but are reliable and easy. I paid an eye-watering 6quid each for my 5 white martagons (have been looking enviously at the newer hybrids too such as Rose Arch Fox, Marmalade and so on.....but bought seeds instead so in for the long haul). L.cernuum a waste of time though, but L.pumila/tenuifolium is easy from seed. Easiest of all are the Formosa lilies.........and Regale isn't too tricky either.

I wrote off lilies here some time ago after lily beetle arrived in the garden (fritillarias too, alas) but L. henryi survives as a relict down in the shade garden: neglected, ignored, but back again every year and blooming reliably. Perhaps there's a message for me there.
I've had a question in the back of my mind about the suitability of poplars as trees to grow climbers on. Black and white poplars are common here, found growing down in the drainages. In my experience they're fast-growing, weak-wooded trees, and the white poplars at least are short-lived and given to suckering, though certainly handsome. In short, our poplars wouldn't be the trees I would choose to grow climbers up, especially after my recent experience with (weak wooded and fast growing) black locust and 'Treasure Trove'.
Wildflowers and wild plants in general are an essential part of my garden, so I know you're going to have a lot of fun. I want to try bluebells (non-scripta) in the shade garden here as well, though I don't know how they'll like our gray clay and steep slopes, even in a wood.
Melissa

True, poplars are indeed fast growing and not long-lived either.....but, as it is essentially a plantation, this is what we have (and a few oaks), so must make the most of it. In truth, poplars would not be a tree I choose to plant but since they are there, all 300+, I am going to use them - although we will be doing a few areas of clear felling and replanting for more diversity (alders, hornbeam, more oak, downy birch, limes, sorbus and so on). Funnily enough, I am keen to try a couple of locusts as the timber has natural tannins and it possesses an ability to avoid rotting in water - a bit like red cedar (thuja)
Lily beetles - gah! And yet......for the last couple of years, they have not been seen in either my garden or allotment. I have limited myself to what I could check continually - just a few dozen bulbs, mostly in pots. The worst thing concerning lilies are virus....and it is getting harder to buy clean stock too. I had a friend who grew canna for years until virus began to affect 90% of all new stock (Might not be applicable in the US but here in the UK, they were everywhere, even wheeled out in municipal plantings on roundabouts and such but now, nada).
What are your wooded areas like, Melissa - do tell me more. One of the things I am noticing is the abundance of info on meadow (and prairie) planting but nothing to address these ideas to a shade arena. Practically every 'woodland' garden I am seeing are basically careful arrangements of heucheras, hostas, pulmonaries, epimediums. A lot have mulched woodland areas with log edged paths, lots of rhodies and azaleas in the acidic areas and a huge penchant (at least here in the UK) for situating sculptures in woodland settings. However, working with what I have (bugger-all), I was going to sow amounts of seed - I thought I could cope with about 2000, 2,500 plantlets at a time, which sounds a lot, but isn't, in the hope of making a sort of darker prairie with swathes of perennials existing alongside the weeds and scrub. This autumn, I am ready to sow the first batch of foxgloves, aconitum, geraniums, thalictrum, epilobium, angelica, campanulas and aquilegia. - should go in at the same time as the bulbs. Basically, I am literally and figuratively working in the dark.

Martagons take seven years from seed. I have hundreds of the common pink and red because they grew in my wood when I moved here but my 12 whites are from divided bulbs from a friend. It's a much quicker way to build up stock.

I envy you your freedom to make what you want with your wood. My little pocket of natural Scandinavian wood puts more restraint on my plans. I have rhododendrons in one separate part but I don't want to interfere too much with the rest. The lilies of the valley are already gone because we cut down a tree and conditions changed for them. The bilberrries, the hepaticas and the windflowers still thrive but I've had to get rid of the woodbine and the vinca that I introduced against better judgement.

In spite of the differences, I think our conditions are roughly similar, so if there's any wildflower you want from my wood and garden, I would be happy send you seed or seedlings. I still cherish the alchemilla I had from an Irish internet chum in county Cork almost 20 years ago. I wanted a lower variety but hers proved to be exactly like the one I had but I am still fond of the Irish one, now a mainstay of my garden. Of course, I can't vouch for the success of the shipping, but I'd like to try. Would you like a hepatica, for instance? Or some of my common pink martagon bulbs?

Sigh -- Hundreds of martagon lilies, Marianne. I've always coveted martagon lilies (seven years to bloom from seed, though -- there's an exercise in patience), but we moved from Massachusetts before I could realize the dream and it's about a zone too warm for them where we are now. Regal lilies do okay here, though, and I love them. From seed, both here and in MA, L. regale was easy and only three years or so to get blooms.

Ecologist that I am, I lean toward your approach, Campanula. A lot of woodland gardens, as your quote marks around "woodland" indicate, are mainly gardens that happen to be sitting in woodland; could just as well plant them under a tent of shade-cloth for all the relationship they have to real woodland dynamics. Some of the most satisfying parts of my garden are where, once planted or introduced, the populations of plants maintain and recruit themselves year in and year out, including the annuals and biennials -- with no need for me to be hovering over them on a regular basis. A little arbitration, maybe, from time to time. I have a "multi-cultural" (not everything strictly native) chaparral that does that, and a self-maintaining sort of larger-shrub understory elsewhere.

Sounds like fun to me: turn 'em loose and see what happens, then go from there.

This post was edited by catspa on Mon, Aug 5, 13 at 16:49

Mariannese - what a generous offer....and one I would love to take up. 7 years from seed sounds ages, but isn't really that bad....and you will get the odd flowering plants after 4or5 years.....so yep, when your martagons are ready for splitting their seed pods, I would love some seeds (I will be saving the seeds from my handful of whites). Is there some way to send you my details? When we were looking at land, there were numerous restrictions on land-use in the UK (and rightly so) - many areas which were designated ancient or semi-ancient natural woodland or Sites of Scientific Interest, have restrictive covenants and Tree Protection Orders....and often difficult topography with fallen trunks and changes of level - whereas ours was essentially a field, with some trees on it - a situation which had special resonance for no-one so we can make radical changes (although we probably wouldn't) without much interference and without requiring masses of heavy (and costly) machinery..
Cats - you have no idea how cheering I find your statement. The adjoining areas (3 meadows and another poplar plantation) have been bought my people with deep ecology interests or who want to take wildlife photos and do birdwatching .....and I am slightly anxious that I do intend to 'manage' the woods and definitely increase the diversity, without being too dogmatic about using native plants but attempting to be faithful to the general spirit of woodland - I have actually almost felt the wood is 'talking' to me, hence the unforeseen interest in wild flowers which can survive without much intervention (the dynamics of a woodland, as you put it so well, Cats).
All-in-all, there are times when it seems less daunting, especially making an iconic garden. I am pretty anxious about a permanent relocation, although it is heaps cheaper to live in Norfolk than Cambridge and there seems no end of garden work

Camps,
Regarding woodlands: Asarum makes a nice ground cover and A. europaeum (which I assume is a native of yours) makes a nice evergreen ground cover as do some other species. Our native, A. canadense, is deciduous. The Trilliums which are native here also make nice, ephemeral, ground covers. Then there are ferns which are very varied and Mertensia, called bluebells here. A few years ago I planted Lycorus squamigera, Cyclamen and various species of Cochicum but my favorite is C. byzantinum alba. More recently I planted white bleeding heart. Plants seem to grow slowly here and so far it just looks like a smattering but some day... In the meantime I am using both Vinca and ivy (Hedera helix) to keep the weeds at bay. Every year or two I tear down any ivy that is climbing the trees and so seem to have it under control. What I destroy on sight though is Euonymus. I do not know the species. It was here when we came. It is evergreen and can climb trees but is usually used as a ground cover and it looks very much like the vinca except the leaf edges are slightly scalloped and it is more robust. And it is very invasive because the birds eat the berries and seed it around. The ivy has not seeded until very recently because it is usually kept as a ground cover but the neighbors have some growing up a large ash tree and it must have finally reached maturity. Long ago I planted Danae racemosa (Alexandrian laurel) which I like very much but this is zone pushing and the small size of the plant shows it. This year I planted a variegated Rhodea which, although unremarkable, has a slightly exotic air about it, maybe due to the size and substance of the leaves (so I am guessing you wouldn't like it?). We also have Paw Paw trees (Asimia triloba), and American persimmon (Diospyros virginiana), Hamamelis, and redbud (Cercis canadense) and also cornus florida but not in the "woods".

Cath

Camps,
Regarding woodlands: Asarum makes a nice ground cover and A. europaeum (which I assume is a native of yours) makes a nice evergreen ground cover as do some other species. Our native, A. canadense, is deciduous. The Trilliums which are native here also make nice, ephemeral, ground covers. Then there are ferns which are very varied and Mertensia, called bluebells here. A few years ago I planted Lycorus squamigera, Cyclamen and various species of Cochicum but my favorite is C. byzantinum alba. More recently I planted white bleeding heart. Plants seem to grow slowly here and so far it just looks like a smattering but some day... In the meantime I am using both Vinca and ivy (Hedera helix) to keep the weeds at bay. Every year or two I tear down any ivy that is climbing the trees and so seem to have it under control. What I destroy on sight though is Euonymus. I do not know the species. It was here when we came. It is evergreen and can climb trees but is usually used as a ground cover and it looks very much like the vinca except the leaf edges are slightly scalloped and it is more robust. And it is very invasive because the birds eat the berries and seed it around. The ivy has not seeded until very recently because it is usually kept as a ground cover but the neighbors have some growing up a large ash tree and it must have finally reached maturity. Long ago I planted Danae racemosa (Alexandrian laurel) which I like very much but this is zone pushing and the small size of the plant shows it. This year I planted a variegated Rhodea which, although unremarkable, has a slightly exotic air about it, maybe due to the size and substance of the leaves (so I am guessing you wouldn't like it?). We also have Paw Paw trees (Asimia triloba), and American persimmon (Diospyros virginiana), Hamamelis, redbud (Cercis canadense), Beauty berry (Callicarpa - white berries but the woods are too shady for this), Aucuba japonica (non-variegated), Itea virginica Henry's Garnet (beautiful Fall color and almost evergreen er deep red) and also Cornus florida but not in the "woods".

Cath

I apologize for the double post. Don't know how it happened.
But it gives me a chance to add.

Lately I have been trying to increase winter color and interest in the "woods". This year several Helleborus niger Josef Lemper, one H. Jakob and one H. Winter's Moonbeam (I like the foliage, not wild about the flower) were planted. The first 2 begin blooming in November or early December. Next year I hope to add more Itea Henry's Garnet (or I. Little Henry), more Ilex Sparkleberry (lots of red berries on dark naked stems) for late Fall and winter color and maybe Lindera benzoin, native here, for a light haze of yellow in late Winter to early Spring. I also have Magnolia grandiflora which never looks right to me in a woodland except once in southeast Georgia where I saw a grove of it it hung in Spanish moss with the golden late afternoon sun streaming between the trees. So why did I plant it? Well there IS gardener's avarice but besides that the magnolia is planted to block the sight, year round, of a house which interferes with the woodland vibe. And I am trying to establish ramblers and climbers on the trees: Paul's Himalayan Musk, Madame Alfred Carriere, New Dawn, Weisse Dawn (spelling?), and Rosa filipipes, A note about that: I had thought that the roses were immune to the poison excreted by black walnuts (Juglans nigra) but then discovered that the only roses that survived were planted next to a maple and on the side opposite the black walnut tree. The maple roots seem to be blocking the black walnut roots enough to allow those roses to survive.

Cath

I apologize for the double post. Don't know how it happened.
But it gives me a chance to add.

Lately I have been trying to increase winter color and interest in the "woods". This year several Helleborus niger Josef Lemper, one H. Jakob and one H. Winter's Moonbeam (I like the foliage, not wild about the flower) were planted. The first 2 begin blooming in November or early December. Next year I hope to add more Itea Henry's Garnet (or I. Little Henry), more Ilex Sparkleberry (lots of red berries on dark naked stems) for late Fall and winter color and maybe Lindera benzoin, native here, for a light haze of yellow in late Winter to early Spring. I also have Magnolia grandiflora which never looks right to me in a woodland except once in southeast Georgia where I saw a grove of it it hung in Spanish moss with the golden late afternoon sun streaming between the trees. So why did I plant it? Well there IS gardener's avarice but besides that the magnolia is planted to block the sight, year round, of a house which interferes with the woodland vibe. And I am trying to establish ramblers and climbers on the trees: Paul's Himalayan Musk, Madame Alfred Carriere, New Dawn, Weisse Dawn (spelling?), and Rosa filipipes, A note about that: I had thought that the roses were immune to the poison excreted by black walnuts (Juglans nigra) but then discovered that the only roses that survived were planted next to a maple and on the side opposite the black walnut tree. The maple roots seem to be blocking the black walnut roots enough to allow those roses to survive.

Cath

Oh dear another double post!
But this time I know what happened. I sneezed, the screen went blooey and I lost my place. No more posts tonight.

Cath

Are you going to have animals as well or just plants? If I had the room, I would get some fluffy honey colored hens. The city used to let people keep hens but now it's grown in and they don't allow it anymore.

Ah yes, Buff Orpingtons, Kitty. Well.........maybe, in the (distant) future. We had them at the allotment and they were fun to have around.....as long as they didn't escape.....and therein lies the dilemma - Mr Fox is perpetually lurking and chickens, unlike a lot of birds, were not terribly smart.
Cath, I love the thoughtful info you impart - it is worth reading twice, especially since you are mentioning plants which I am utterly unfamilar with. Even now, shrubs have not popped up in my brain - still playing with perennials. Way back in the day, when I first started gardening, it all began with a particularly colourful flowering shrub (lavatera) and, thrilled with the success and ease of having colour and structure, I followed the well-known novice route of rapidly buying several more (philadelphus, weigela, the usual stuff)....and, of course, roses. I ran out of room in the first year! Anyway, apart from a few deutzias and philadelphus, those shrubs are long gone from my garden and also from my brain - so thank you for reminding me about a huge class of stalwart plants.
I do recall checking out lindera and fothergilla and concluding they wanted a more acididc soil than I could provide (I had a brief flirtation with autumn colour) but I have always been crazy about heps and berries (I might have to risk a few of the better behaved cotoneasters) and I love the sound of your holly(although I have been looking at non-prickly types such as J.C.Van Tol). Also, I now have room to indulge in some of the less familiar fruits such as aronias, japanese wineberries (and indeed, rubus of various winter colours and good white spring flowers). I feel a bit faint when I consider the massive shuffling around this autumn, moving roses and perennials, so I may have to reach into my purse (deep pockets and short arms syndrome) and spend a bit of cash on a few statement bushes, for the sheer ease of straightforward planting (as opposed to cutting back, digging up and moving ).

Suzy, you can reach me by e-mail from my page. I'll try to collect seed but it will have to be the ordinary pinks and reds. I would also like to send some bulbs so you can scale them. I have some martagons that grow in odd places and I'll dig them up anyway.

From what I've read, the wilds of California 150 years ago had huge swathes of orange and purple in the early Spring, where the lupine and poppies were nearly solid. The only place I've ever seen that nowadays was in the Tejon Pass, on the Grapevine between Los Angeles and the Central Valley. It's beef pasturage, don't know if it's publicly owned or privately owned, but you really can't get to it without a serious hike and risking the beef encounter, even if you can SEE it from the road. So, it's not been stripped like most of the accessible areas have been. That's the reason it's now illegal to pick wild poppies. I have managed to get the basic poppy to grow in my yard, and it keeps going most of the summer what with my watering of my roses and other stuff, but it's not all that easy to grow. I've probably broadcast 10+ packets on our little lot, and hardly any of it has germinated. And it doesn't transplant at all well, so it's not sold as plants...

Melinda

That's funny, Melinda. The orange CA poppies reseed like crazy for me here in Mtn. View (Silicon Valley). I've got a bunch of baby poppies coming up around my newly planted and therefore deeply and regularly watered Mableton Crimson rose (a found rose from Vintage also called Agrippina, a supposedly dwarf Cramoisi Superior). Ah! I managed to sneak in an OGR :-)

Anne

Melinda

Some times you just need to know where to find those stretches of wildflowers
{{gwi:296265}}
The CA Poppy preserve is fun to visit, but to really bloom we need a good rain in September and October.

I have not had a lot of luck buying and spreading poppy seed. What works for me is to plant a few of them and then sprinkle that seed. If you are not finding the plants locally, keep trying different nurseries. I can find them here, but not at the box stores.

I've seen broad swathes of Lupinus bicolor and orange poppies, too, but due to contractor error. It's what you get when those seeds are a minor "pretty-fying" component in a native seed mix composed primarily of native perennial bunch grasses and the contractor doesn't hydro-seed it until late November/early December. Early first rains (October) in the fall favor grasses and late first rains favor forbs ("wildflowers"), but if you seed too late, the native bunch grass seed won't come up well at all and guess what you get?

Poppy seed thrown out in the fall without too much competition around (they favor open ground) should come up, as long as there is enough rain or other timely irrigation. I've used the big packets of the white-colored variety available from Home Depot for winter erosion control on my xeriscape front slope.

Annie's Annuals offers fancy varieties -- this is another of our native species where the plant breeders have just gone nuts.

It's a myth that it is illegal to pick California poppies, specifically (though I was taught that in grade school, too). Actually, it is illegal to pick or damage any plant on public land in California (except some federal Bureau of Land Management or BLM lands), which includes the right-of-ways running along most roads and highways. On private land, with permission of the landowner, pick away.

Aha. They favor open ground, huh? Well, that makes sense. And that is what they have in the new bed where they are sprouting all over.

Anne