c2g,
IMHO allot of people end up thinking about the maximum possible size for everything, and thinking that them touching at all as a horrible thing. It's then not "perfect". Another is theoretically, trees that don't have to much competition with one another, then are healthier. Human's also seem to have a very strong affinity for a tropical savanna like environment. With that in mind, a yard with a relatively few large stand alone trees very much resembles a tropical savanna. So while I agree that planting White Oaks 5' on center is not a good ideal. I also happen to be of the opinion that done smartly, planting closer than maximum size would dictate, is not all bad either. I have two freeman maples planted about 18' apart oriented north-south. Too close by most standards here, but I did so for a very important reason. They are to be a sun shield from the hot western sun in summer (it was 98 degrees yesterday) so that we will have far more use from our patio. They will soon mingle on one side, but only one side, and both will receive almost complete sunshine. They are growing up together, and will be fine. This growing up together is a key. Relatively the same high and growth rates. Near my house are a pair over very large ash trees, that at first glance appear to be one tree. They are growing perhaps 8' apart, but since they grew up together, they act as one extra large tree.

So in short, I can see value in your goal, and your reasoning. I also know that it will be several years before the canopy completely closes. In the past, you have tried to do a few things that just would not work, but in the present case, I'm on the fence.

JMHO
Arktrees

when i post.. and i am only speaking for myself.. i am always concerned that the OP ... the original poster ... has created a box.. and refuses to look outside of it ... or as i said in your other post.. duct taped yourself into it ...

so i often say such ...

now as to your postage stamp .. let ME be clear.. its YOUR POSTAGE STAMP ... if you decide.. after reading whatever i have to say.. that you would prefer to plant one foot on center.. every tree you can find.. then just go do it.. AND DO NOT FEEL GUILTY .... got that part ...

when i moved to my 5 acres .. 11 years ago .. i planted 6 foot oaks.. the biggest is now about 25 feet.. and it creates some shade .. a moving target of shade.. about as big as the footprint of that pergola... that is an 11 year investment in growing some shade .... and as the sun moves.. that little footprint of shade is basically useless .... at 25 feet!!! .... and buying bigger trees is not going to make usable shade any quicker ..

i think the root of my concern with your small space.. is that though you will have some trees .. you are not going to have much usable shade for a decade or two ... are you young enough.. and plan to retire to this shady yard ..????

if you want to shade.. and use your yard ... in the next 10 years.. you better think outside the tree box ...

or.. AND THIS IS KEY ... do whatever makes you happy.. that is really the whole point to a garden.. its YOURS ...

BTW .... there is no reason you cant build a structure.. get the shade immediately.. and still plant the trees ... so that by the time the structure starts rotting away in 10 or 20 years .. the trees will be ready to take over ...

though this is typed .. its simply a conversation.. i assumed you would do whatever you wanted .. once you listened to the BS ... lol

there is a difference between a dream and reality ... and that is summed up in the passage of time ... its your dream of sitting under the canopy of a diverse canopied forest ... which may never come to fruition.. if you die of skin cancer basting in that sun .. before the canopy matures ....

you ask for opinions.. so that you may make an informed choice ... i dont understand now.. why you seem, in this post.. to be getting defensive ...

whatever makes you happy .. is fine with me ...

ken

ps: boy i sound like a pergola salesman.. whats that all about ...

pps: here near ann arbor.. its been near 100 heat index for a week .... the thought of standing anywhere in my yard ... or in your little sunny patch ... is what is making me tell you that waiting for trees to grow to make some shade.. is what is making me sit in the basement and write posts on the computer ... if only i had a structure to sit under ....

You don't have the dynamics to mimic a forest with the drive, patio and structures therefore you might be getting push back from that perspective.

In the end do what makes you happy but make sure you know the risks as well. Just be sure to select trees that are shade tolerant if you plan to keep them tight.

Here is a link that might be useful: Shade Tolerance by Species

Another bonus of plantimg close is if something dies in ten years you are not starting from scratch.

My only don't involve huge trees over your bedroom and planting on underground utilities.

Go for it!

I agree that you won't have a bona fide forest in that space, but you can certainly make your yard the favorite spot for a lot of birds. I think the number of trees you have in mind is fine. If it gets too crowded, you can take some down.

Re: that list of "Shade Tolerance by Species", I'd like to know who put Sassafras in the "shade intolerant" section!

Alex

Assuming they grow up together (similar growth rate, from a similar starting size), then shade tolerance is not a concern, as no one tree becomes dominant. With that said, the maples next door have a pretty good head start, but that could probable be managed with a good exchange with the owners and a bit of pruning if they get too close over the property line. The Scarlet Oaks can actually grow pretty fast, and should be able to hold their own with the maples if the disparity is not to great.

Arktrees

I have some trees as close as 10 feet to each other in 2 rows trying to make an alle', I think that's what it's called, as well as some with lots of room, and the tree heavy parts are more interesting. Forests are beautiful. There's a place near my home with trees pretty close together and I love going there. Picnic areas and parks across the country are usually tree heavy, cause who wants to bake in the sun in a bare boring field? When I'm in a tree packed place it feels like some place special. It's nice to have a giant specimen, but I would plant whatever you want and after you aren't there anymore, whoever is there can change whatever they don't like. I can't wait til I can walk through certain parts of my yard and be in shade the majority of the time. Okay I'll shut up now!

Thanks for all the feedback. I have a clearer picture of both sides of the fence now. This will help me to make educated decisions about the plantings on my property.

Sorry to sound defensive, Ken. Just a bit overzealous with the whole native planting thing sometimes. By valuing the feedback, especially the push-back, I saved myself from my original plan of throwing a dawn redwood and planetree into the mix, lol.

But really, thanks for the advice. I love working with stone and wood. The idea of incorporating a wooden structure to get immediate shade into the plan which will eventually give way to the trees has really got me thinking. I love the impermanence of it.

Also, the reason I was in such a hurry to add another canopy tree is because while I usually get an earful from my wife about how much time/$ I spend on trees and landscaping, she's practically demanding I get some trees to make up for the lack of shade -- and I just can't let this window of opportunity close before she changes her mind!

Thanks again, and I'll be sure to post updates and questions on my follies, whichever direction I go.

Hey, as someone else mentioned, you can always plant those extra trees and then take them down in the future (before they get too large they become dangerous to dispose by yourself). I love watching my "babies" grow just for the fun of it. I have a few projects just to see what happens and that is my entertainment. There is always bonsai for curiosity. You can be as hardcore as you want. So what if it only lives a few years.

Anyways, my .02.

(also the more trees the less yard mowing, HUGE plus ;) )

I was originally thinking of doing that cut down method as a way to work in a shagbark hickory. Really wanted one of those in the original plan, but found out I could only get them in a small pot size. Was thinking about planting something fast-growing, like a tulip poplar (which are all over the place here) to start the canopy while the hickory grew nearby, and then cut it down and use it for firewood after some years.

Nothing wrong with that plan though it would take a very long time for that hickory to achieve large size. I am going to dig up some hickory trees in the woods this fall after I can see if any display superior fall color and move them to a more noticeable location.

j0nd03,
FYI, I have not tried it, nor do I know anyone that has, but supposedly hickory trees are not at all tolerant of being transplanted one they reach any real size. But then again, neither are Scarlet Oaks, and ours is doing well. Not telling you not to try it, just that you might do some looking for info first, and might need to prepare a particular tree by some method of root pruning, with time to recover before actually trying to transplant.

Arktrees

Yeah, I looked far and wide for a decent size b&b shagbark and the biggest I found was 3-4' tall at a place 4 hrs away in NY. Evidently the taproot prevents transplanting after 3 yrs old. A few amazing large ones at Morris Arboretum here.

I am another fan of the wooded, canopied look. Lots of shade means less grass (I don't like grass) and I like the way leaf litter looks. I have the good fortune of living on a corner with no overhead wires so I planted two planes about 20 feet apart and 3 to 5 feet from the fence. I sited them to shade the asphalt of the road and my yard since they get enormous which will make my house more comfortable in summer. I've had them for two years (I think). I enjoy watching them grow. When they get big, I'd like to plant a japanese maple under them.

Other parts of the yard are treed up with Crape Myrtles.

I've seen a number of yards in California where they planted a lot of trees and I really like the look.

John,
I'm amazed that I'm typing this, but I know where there is a 2" Caliper B&B Shagbark Hickory Carya ovata and probable 15'+ for sale here in NW Arkansas. About feel over when I found it today. Tree looks healthy on initial inspection. If you are interested, then let me know, and I will send you more info.

Arktrees

Ark, plz email me with info. I had a southern catalpa that literally had roots that ROTTED from our spring rains when I pulled it out of the ground a 3 weeks ago. It was a bareroot I planted in late March. I was going to put a seedling mockernut hickory from the woods in that spot. I am very interested in this shagbark. Maybe I will splurge and pick up a scarlet oak while I'm up there.

The ones I was going to transplant are around 2-3 feet so maybe they are too large?

As an aside, please, God, let it rain. I am sick and tired of these 105-110* degree days down in the valley. We have had 9 out of the last 10 days 105 or greater.

I understand your neighborhood is doing pretty much the same thing in creating a canopy. I like the idea. It's different, but if everybody goes along with it, it should work. Sort of an island for bird life in the city.

Trees, when planted properly, and irrigated when needed, grow surprisingly fast. I wouldn't worry about overplanting, you can always edit or limb up. The thing I wouldn't do would be to plant trash trees. They get in the way all too quick. Nor would I plant trees that can't handle shade.
Here's what I did about 25 years ago. Some would say it's over planted. Those are the people who look at each plant as an individual, rather than the plants as a composition. Their trees are arranged as if they were knick-knacks on a shelf.
To each his own, of course.
{{gwi:392164}}

I grew up in he Valley, and there are plenty of year where it's no fun at all. Worst summer I've ever seen, was 1980 in the Valley. Ozark had a bank clock reading one day of 120 that August. NO rain for 4 months. Drought was so bad, fully grown trees shed all their leaves to survive. I've been watching what's going on there, and I have thought about all those that you have planted. While hot and dry here, it's not been nearly as hot as you. Hoping for improvement soon as well.

I will send you a PM through GW in a few minutes. There are things you should definitely know about the Hickory.

Arktrees

Botann: That's the look I like. Foresty, green and cool looking. Makes me want to tie up a hammock somewhere in there and relax with a good book and iced tea.