Chinas
1. Archduke Charles - good rose, but quite small

*** FWIW, Sammy, I've seen more than one Archduke Charles out here in old cemeteries. They seem to make sturdy, upright plants ranging up as tall as 7- 8-ft.

Here it is in December, in Northern California:
{{gwi:289764}}

Here's The Same plant, in April:
{{gwi:289766}}

Jeri

Sammy,

Chinas
1. Archduke Charles - loved the flowers before it got hot, stays half defoliated now, flowers now tiny & crispy. Mine is in a 20-gal pot. Keeping it.

4. Carnation - The blooms are pretty - love them. Right now he looks ugly, half defoliated, no flowers. Maybe needs a feeding.

5. Cramoisi Superieur. This rose is perhaps my most disappointing rose. In the spring he balls totally, defoliates regularly, so I moved him to the backyard. He survived, bloomed a little w/semi-double/single flowers, grew a few leaves and now is totally naked.

7. Louis Philippe. He's the joy of my garden. I have two, one in full sun, one in a lot of shade. They just finished a beautiful smelly flush. They're both fully leafed now, even though their history in my garden says they should be losing leaves now preparing for the next growth spurt. I see why he's called The Florida Rose - NO BS. This is the only China that I'm totally happy with. Does that mean I need more of them? I'll have to think about that. This is a totally carefree rose here. Had the same feeding as Carnation & Old Blush with an entirely different result.

8. Martha Gonzalez. Got her recently for $3 at Lowes. Still in a pot, probably needs to be in the ground somewhere but it's too hot. She blooms her tiny blooms pretty regular. Typical China - not too leafy. We don't get PM in the summer.

9. Spice. Gorgeous bush, inconsequential flowers (IMHO), gave it to a friend.

Hybrid Musks

2. Bubble Bath. A little more than a year old. NOT a very pretty bush yet, throwing out long arching canes, but not bulked up yet. In a LOT of shade so I thought that's why she wasn't blooming, but she is now - a little. Like all my HMs her leaves get ugly with a different kind of BS and just hang on looking all tan/yellow & splotchy. She has a blank check from me before I take her out since no other rose will grow there. HMs are still iffy plants for me. I also have Felicia, Francesca, Cornelia & Nur Mahal. They're not pretty bushes for me, more accurately, butt-ugly. Waiting to pass judgment maybe after the fall flush.

Bourbon

1. Souvenir de la Malmaison. I have 2 of this rose, and I think I will love it. Doesn't seem too bad with BS, as good as some teas. And gorgeous flowers, naturally, much smaller now in the heat. Mine are very young so I have to wait and see.

3. Maggie. Gone. This long-caned type of Bourbon doesn't do well here - at least not in my garden.

Thanks, Sammy, for letting me get this off my chest. It just goes to show - roses are very location-dependent! I'm glad so many are doing well for you now that you're no-spray.

Sherry

I agree with Jeri, my Archduke Charles is seven foot easy and it is only a three year old. Fairly clean. AC is my favorite china next to Sophies Perpetual.(ok, a hybrid china)
Cramoisi Supirieur got the shovel this morning. It hasn't had a leaf on it since mid May. Enough is enough.

Jim

Very interesting.....I know some of you folks have very similar climates to mine but the reports on the same roses vary widely......I suppose that is where the other factors such as soil, etc. come into play.

I have Archduke Charles, Cramoisi Superier-whatever! (oh the spelling of that one!) Ducher, Martha Gonzales, and Caldwell Pink. As far as plant vigor goes, all do very well here and while some get a touch of BS (in this BS-ridden climate), none need spraying to control it. I don't think I have ever even seen a single BS leaf on Caldwell Pink. I think it is a first cousin to Knockouts - lol. For landscape plants, this is truly one of my favorites - nice rounded shape and foliage from top to bottom, pretty color of flowers, blooming continuously. I don't even deadhead mine.

I bought Ducher because of a very attractive speciman at the Antique Rose Emporium but this one has been a bit of disappointment. The blooms are a bit sparse and, being light colored, are always a thrip magnet.

I also have SDLM and I won't bother reporting on that one! Is there anyone who doesn't love that variety?

I also have Maggie - new for me this year - and so far so good but we'll see what the future holds. I'll know more when it has been in the ground for longer than a few months.

Penelope is also a plant that has been a bit of a disappointment. Mine is in a large pot, probably not the best spot, but I don't really like the way the blooms are at the end of the canes. I had also read somewhere that you should NOT prune Hybrid Musks too much or very much at all? Can any of you shed light on this?

Lynn

Lynn, they don't respond well to hard-pruning HERE, but there's a world of difference between my climate and thine.

Jeri

May I add some other chinas and HMs to the list?
I too do not spray.

HM:

-Francesca: very bad, lots of fungal diseases. I keep it only because of the name (it's stupid, I know).

-Buff beauty: health is fair to good, not excellent, but it seems to not care about that as it blooms nonetheless. Rebloom is slow to come, but then it is really a big flush of flowers.

-Felicia: very healthy no-spray rose, grows and blooms well.

-Cornelia: same as felicia. It came by chance but I am now very happy about it. Healthy no-spray rose.

CHINAS

-Mutabilis: gets ill, especially in spring and autumn when there is a lot of rain, but it blooms even if nearly defoliated, an incredible rose. As soon as the rain stops, it quickly heals itself. So it is not a healty rose, but it is a very good nonetheless.

-Sanguinea /bengal fire: contrary to mutabilis, it appears to be always healthy, really a very good china IMO.

-Hermosa: a very new acquisition in my garden. Until now it seems to suffer from fungal diseases but only slightly, and blooms very well. I will wait and see, at present time I am satisfied. Let's see in autumn...

-Old blush: very bad. Ok, first blooms in april are gorgeous, an azalea looks miserable in comparison. But then... always defoliated by fungal diseases, really sad looking. No good. Then again, in autumn it returns a very good looking blooming rose. But in summer it is really pathetic, a few canes and a flower here and there, with nearly no leaves. That' a pity. But due to the spring and autumn flush, I would never get rid of my two OBs.

scardan123, your experience with Old Blush is very interesting and enlightening. Mine looks terrible right now but perhaps this is just normal. I'll wait patiently for the fall to see what it does then. Just one problem: how did it get its nickname "Old Monthly" with this habit?

Sherry

We planted "Fabvier" a short red China, in a no-spray garden where P.M. is the primary culprit, and it's done well, blooming profusely even with an icing of P.M. in spring, and never defoliating.
Lux.

Sherry, FWIW, we have just removed Old Blush, after many years of watching it mildew to a greater or lesser degree.

I've seen enough to know how lovely it is in Texas, but it is perfectly miserable here.
And so, in fact, are most pink chinas that seem to be closely related to Old Blush.

Jeri

Jeri, I would love to have a larger Archduke Charles. Mine comes barely up to my waist.

We also removed our Old Blush after many years of thinking about it. I think I will be much happier with Mrs. Dudley Cross, its replacement.

Sherri, mine is not defoliating, but I do get the small flowers. We have had far too many days with temps over 100, and logically you are in a much hotter zone than we are.

I hope Jeri chimes in here, but Sherri, I bet your Cramoisi Superieur is my Louis Phillipe, and my Cramoisi Superieur is your Louis Phillipe. I read that they are the same rose, but to me, CS is excellent. LP struggles. I cut it back so it would get stronger, and it didn't help. I have two of them, and they do not have the strength that CS has. As far as I know there is no way to tell the two apart. If the nurseries are guessing, then we could have opposite roses. I do think that my Cramoisi Superieur has blooms with more of a white inner glow than LP. Jeri do you know what the difference is?

Thanks for your responses, Sherry.

Thank you Jim. Again, I wonder if there isn't confusion in the rose industry between CS and LP.

Lynn, the thrips or (Botrytis Blight) are one of the worst hazards of no spray growing. Many of my light colored roses have not been at all pretty this year because of the thrips. I do hope that their natural enemies emerge soon. LOL

Scardan, thank you. I enjoy reading about roses that I don't have, especially those I should get or should avoid.

Luxrosa, thanks for your report - especially about a rose that gets PM, and does not defoliate.

Sammy

Reading about other people's defoliating roses sure makes me feel better. There are days when I think I'm going to SP everything but the rugosas.

My Chinas do so-so; Louis Phillipe is blooming beautifully, but doesn't have a leaf on him. My Bourbons are naked twigs--no more bourbons. My HMs actually do very well.

My Cram Sup (5 years old)is beautifully shaped, twiggy and spreading, and HUGE. The flowers are wonderfully fragrant and it is always blooming. Right now though it has very very few leaves. Been that way most of the summer.
Ducher (3 years) is one of the healthiest roses in my garden and has been all year. Absolutely COVERED in leaves, in a time when even my healthiest roses seem to be showing some skin (stem).
Ballerina is all right. I haven't noticed BS being a big problem. Maybe I just haven't looked.
SDLM- (3 years) good. Getting lanky, but that may be my mis-placement of this rose. SDLM Rouge (3 years)is a mess- every winter it seems to die back almost to the point of death- and start the year over with 1 or 2 stems. Love the rose, love the fragrance, love the blooms. But health is not there.
Kronprincessin Viktoria (5 years)- OK rose. Health is fine but the fragrance is dissapointing.
Maggie (3 years)- BS is a problem but nothing is stopping her from blooming. The BS isn't nearly as bad as it could be, so I'm not complaining.
Archduke Charles (1 year) both - thanks Beerhog!- are still really small but really healthy.
Arethusa (planted this spring) - the health has astounded me- BUT lots of baby roses impress me at first.
Francesca died on me.
Buff Beauty isn't very healthy. Rebloom hasn't gotten any better - like I expected it to - in the 5 years it's grown here. But it's not getting the boot.

Sammy, I am personally convinced that there is a difference, but I cannot tell you definitively which is which.

That said, our 'Louis Phillipe' came from the Sacramento City Cemetery, where I believe it was identified by Fred Boutin. And if Fred says it is, I believe it to be true.
Our 'Cramoisi Superieur' came from Vintage -- where they are similarly meticulous about identification.

We planted 'Louis Phillipe' in a location where at least three roses of various types had failed -- almost killed by reflected heat from a retaining wall. My theory was that with more foliage, L.P. should handle that location. He has more than succeeded, and is now about 5 ft tall x 5+ ft wide. He's never had a speck of disease, and blooms like mad.
'Cramoisi Superieur' is in a lower bed, where it gets less-intense heat and even a bit of shade for a few hours. It has grown much more slowly, but is healthy, and gains ground constantly.

Our CS blooms are markedly darker than our L.P. blooms, but how much of that is nature, and how much is nurture, I cannot say.

Jeri

Sammy, I am no-spray, and I grow some of the ones you mentioned. This is how they do here.

Randy

Caldwell Pink: performs flawlessly here. No blackspot, no powdery mildew ... clean as a whistle. I agree that its blooms seem to glow. There is kind of a bluish tone to the pink that I REALLY like.

Cramoisi Superieur: I don't currently grow it, but I used too. Had to grudgingly remove it because it was so thoroughly happy that it quickly became huge in my small garden. Great blooms, even in intense heat. On occassion, when the weather was just right, it would thrill you will excellent fruity fragrance that floated across the garden on the breeze. Mine was purchased at a local garden center, so there's no telling which of the red chinas it really was.

Spice: Perfect shrub shape here. Very healthy, nice foliage. Beautiful blooms in the spring. After spring, the blooms are nothing to look at and are microscopic in size.

Sourvenir de la Malmaison: If you were to dig my plant up and check the bottom of it, I think the roots would spell out the words "Made in NorthCentral Texas". It's that well-adapted here. Incredibly beautiful always, but especially so in the fall, when each year I harvest vase after vase full of perfect blooms. All off of one very happy plant.

Randy

I just want to thank everyone who has taken the time to post on this great thread! I'm taking notes as fast as I can, and will do more homework by finding photos and doing searches on the most promising roses. I really do NOT want to spray, but cherish a healthy looking plant with good disease resistance, terrific fragrance, and adore it when they have the bonus of being thornless, or at least close to it. The last virtue being one that my hubby appreciates most, since he does the mowing and does NOT like it when a rose grabs him! Thanks again, all!

Sammy, this is off topic, but petsitterbarb, your husband would love these two completely thornless roses: Nur Mahal (hybrid musk) & Pacific Serenade (miniature). And they both have some fragrance to my nose. Nur Mahal is easy to find (ARE carries it), but Pacific Serenade is almost impossible to find (most, if not all, of the sources listed on HelpMeFind do not actually sell this rose).

Randy

Randy, ARE did not have Nur Mahal in the spring, and does not have it now. I misunderstood them last year. I printed off what I had ordered, and did not check the confirmation that they sent. Therefore I did not receive it, and did not know to order a replacement. I know now that the computer automated confirmation does not know if they are sold out.

They still do not have it listed.

Thanks for your report.

I need to find time to list the rest of my roses. I have to be careful with my recommendations since some of them have not gone through the winter yet.

Sammy

I' happy to see that Caldwell Pink is universally loved and admired since I'll be getting one next month. I've noticed myself that Spice has miniscule blooms in the summer and wonder why this rose is so universally recommended. I wish now that I'd kept pink Gruss An Aachen instead of panicking and discarding it because it had rust. I needed another rose for a shady spot and therefore ordered Spice, two to be exact. I've given up on the hybrid musks except for Lavender Dream, which is doing beautifully and putting on lots of growth even in the summer, since I've been watering it copiously. Mutabilis is doing very well but I wish it didn't have so many yellow leaves in the summer, which somewhat mars it. No disease, though, and does have some bloom all the time. It's a rose I'd never be without. I'm not fond of red so have none of the red Chinas.

All of the above posts been fascinating, and I hope there will be other threads where people report on how their roses are doing. Duchesse de Brabant, of which I may have had an inferior specimen since it never had more than 17 petals, is now gone since half the bush was dead. Mme. Joseph Schwartz will be replaced soon by Second Street Tea because she stops blooming for months in the summer. No slackers allowed! Yves Piaget was planted yesterday and I can't wait to see those gorgeous blooms. Marie van Houtte and Mrs. Dudley Cross are putting on almost no growth in spite of copious watering and heavy mulching. They get no morning sun and that may be the problem but I have only so many optimal spots for roses. Hopefully they'll persevere since I love both of them.

Ingrid

I've noticed myself that Spice has miniscule blooms in the summer and wonder why this rose is so universally recommended

*** MANY roses have very small blooms in very hot weather.
It's a survival mechanism.
I have often seen Mme. Berkeley covered with blooms no larger than your average modern Miniature
-- but the size returns with the onset of cooler weather.

Jeri

Ingrid, my leafless rose bushes are improving 5 days after one dose of MiracleGro, showing new growth and even buds. It appears that I have been starving them by relying solely on organic dry food. So I'm going to continue it every couple of weeks just dousing the soil not the leaves for the rest of the summer. I don't know if this would help yours. Here our heavy rains leach out nutrients, I guess - even organics, and I think the rain should also help to wash away the salts from the MG. Your saying you were taking out Mme Jos Schwartz made me think of this. I know roses slow down in the high heat but maybe she just needs a pick-me-up. I hate to see you take out a rose again and then regret it. My DdB had an appointment with the shovel (due to thrips), and don't you know she looks gorgeous now - all in bloom, and she has grown into a huge bush. I can't dig her up with all those buds & blooms on her! At least MJS doesn't fade to white in the heat :)) since she's already white.

Sherry

Jeri, I wonder whether anyone has ever been able to explain why some roses become tiny in the heat and others don't. For instance, my Souvenir d'un Ami, Carding Mill, Le Vesuve and Abraham Darby haven't changed in size at all.

Sherry, I think what bothers me is when one rose really underperforms and six others near it are doing well, and all have received the same amount of water and fertilizer. This is the second summer that MJS has done this and I have a feeling it just doesn't like the conditions here. If a rose doesn't perform reasonably well with water, mulch and alfalfa meal then it won't last in my garden. My limited energy level forces me to practice tough love. Luckily, there seem to be enough roses that will put up with this. It's a matter of trial and error and, if nothing else, I'm doing my part to support specialist rose nurseries.

Ingrid

Ingrid, but all of these roses are different genetically.
I am under 5 ft., and can't STAND hot weather.
My sister is 5 ft 7 ins., and lives inland, where it is rather hot.

Remember, Teas and Chinas are genetically adapted to go dormant in hot, dry, summer weather.
(They will bloom right through winter, though.)

So, if you plant Teas and Chinas, and hope to see them blooming bountifully in an inland,
SoCal, July and August -- you're going to be disappointed.

If they bloom, the blooms will probably be smaller than those produced in Fall, Spring, and Winter.

Me, I don't much mind if they slow down at this time.
God knows, when it's in the 90's on my hillside, I am NOT going down there.

My own problems with 'Duchesse de Brabant' and 'Mme. Joseph Schwartz' lie in their lack of resistance
to powdery mildew.

I have two very young plants now, collected from an old cemetery. I am hopeful that these,
when mature, might offer some resistance.
But while I'm HOPEFUL, I'm not necessarily confident of that.

Jeri

Indrid, I see your point, and I know how hard it is to love a rose that's under performing. How old is your MJS? And as Jeri said, roses are genetically different and maybe some do need slightly more or less care. From my perspective (though I haven't really thought of it this way before) I'm trying to find what these roses need to perform well. They're SUPPOSED to perform well here, and I need to learn how to help them. Just the same I yanked 6 roses last weekend and gave away 2 more this weekend. By the same token I can not be out there every month moving mulch, scratching in fertilizer and moving mulch back, so, like you, if that's what they need, I will expel those roses. And ultimately if I have to have multiples of 10 roses that WILL do well here, well, then so be it. But I am heartened by the results of the Miracle Gro (and a little disheartened about the organics. I wish I understood what's going on with that.) To see leaves sprouting in August is thrilling. And as we both have experienced, there's LeVesuve, a wonder of a rose that requires nothing of me and gives so much, and a few others that truly bring me joy. And others that I was so excited about (Jean Bach Sisley) still perform well but less often than I expected. Well, I won't go down this road since most of my garden is in this category.

One thing I've learned is to sit tight and wait for a rose - except in cases when I sp them :)) - DdB is my proverbial case in point. The Ugly Duckling syndrome in spades. So by all means sp if that is what your gut is telling you and get a better rose for that spot. DdB is the reason I have not gotten MJS along with her being only a semi-double. I may have to put up with small flowers but I don't have to settle for skinny ones - unless I want to.

*** Me, I don't much mind if they slow down at this time.
God knows, when it's in the 90's on my hillside, I am NOT going down there.

Jeri, I hear ya. Some evenings it's cool enough to go out and take a peek, but who knew that looking at roses would cause me to break a sweat?

Sherry

Sherry -- IMHO, ". . . sit tight and wait . . . " is one of the big secrets.
And it's a secret I wish I'd learned earlier.

I'm pretty sure that I shovel-pruned things too soon -- before I learned that, with many of the Teas, Chinas,
and Noisettes, there was a good chance of them outgrowing early susceptibility to disease.
This was particularly true of mildew.

And own-root plants don't always grow quickly here.
So I've trained myself to be patient -- a trait which does not come naturally to me.

Jeri

Yeah, Jeri, being patient with roses is comparable to watching paint dry. I have never had to wait this long for something to pay off. We're talkin' years here at a time when years are getting hard to come by.

Her Majesty,
Queen of Instant Gratification

We're talkin' years here at a time when years are getting hard to come by.

*** Hey! I HEAR YOU!
I'm in the same situation. I keep wishing I'd started this at 25.

Jeri

One thing I have noticed is that not all Teas are created equal. While Duchesse de Brabant (who is now in rose heaven) not only quit blooming but lost two thirds of its canes in the heat, Souvenir d'un Ami has beautiful full-sized buds and blooms and even another younger band of the same rose now has buds on it. It would make sense that roses with fuller, thicker petals would do better in the heat. But then how to explain Souvenir de Germain de St. Pierre (hope I got that right), a rather young band that has semidouble fragile blooms, has already bloomed once and has buds on it now? And this is a rose that gets only hot afternoon sun! I think I'm just going to stop trying to figure things out and enjoy the idiosyncracies of my roses and let them do their thing. It would be too boring if they were all alike anyway. Might as well have a square plot of hybrid teas and call it a garden. Eek!

Ingrid

Jeri, you're tiny! Are you and your sister full sisters? Good heavens.

I'm 5'7" and I hate hot weather. So there. (I'm not sure what it proves, actually.)

Ingrid, the differences in Teas only become apparent AFTER they're in our gardens, right? I suppose that's life, and half of life is if! Also, I guess we should start enjoying the experimentation process since it's a big part of gardening. We should probably not set our hearts on a rose until it's been with us a few years, but that no fun!! Are you a member of the local rose society? There must be someone in that area with your growing conditions who grows OGRs. BTW, there is a husband/wife in our society who grow hundreds of OGRs, lots of experience, but they're never online because they have dial-up, so there could be someone very near you that you don't even know about. All we can do is try get as much info as we can and then give the rose a shot. And then not be too upset if it doesn't work out. At least Vintage is nearby.

Sherry

Jeri, you're tiny! Are you and your sister full sisters?

*** No, actually, she had a tall, lanky, English father. I had a short Arberesh-Sicilian father. But we both love roses. :-) And, I TRULY do not know how she can live where she lives without air conditioning.

I'm 5'7" and I hate hot weather. So there. (I'm not sure what it proves, actually.)

*** Only that we all differ in what we consider to be "ideal" conditions -- so I understand that our roses also do.

INGRID! There is a local Heritage Roses Group in your area!
Let me know if I can put you in touch with them.
And I know a veteran Old Rose grower who also lives down your way, and is the nicest man in the whole entire world.
You really need to meet him.

Jeri

I too put Bubble Bath in the impossible spot-- limited sun, soil rather dry due to tree roots. (Pity HMs, they always get stuck in the cheap seats!)

And sure enough it has a particularly ugly form of blackspot. And the most evil tiny back-facing thorns which deter any attempts at training on the waiting trellis. YIKES!

However ahem, this is year 1. So, 2 years to go for her.

Bubble Bath has perfect health here Barbara. I do have her in full sun and try to do drip and decent soil amending and she is huge. You could give nourishing mulch and more H2O.