It's hard to answer that without knowing the pH of soil outside of that area. Is it normal for soil in your area to be lower than that? Is it possibly fill soil of a different type brought in from somewhere?

If that soil has a lower 'natural' pH it could drop back to that given time, but it would only be higher now if something had been added to it.

If it's naturally at that pH, I don't see how it would drop on its own unless you add something. Organic matter (compost) can bring it toward neutral, but it's a slow process.

If you want to add sulfur, google up "sulfur application rate" and you'll find all kinds of Extension fact sheets and online calculators.

Here in Madison, Wisconsin, our local soil has pH around 7.6, and the city tap water has the same pH. The southern half of Wisconsin has limestone outcroppings, and our groundwater accumulates in limestone formations, so the geology is no doubt the reason for our alkaline soil. I add compost to our garden every year, but that is the only addition made except for watering. I use agricultural sulfur to lower soil pH around our blueberry shrubs, but the rest of the yard and lawn do fine with no sulfur. There are those who claim that pH = 6.5 is optimum for gardening, but most gardeners do fine with the alkaline soils around here, as is. Here in the midwest, our soils are generally alkaline because this area was at the bottom of the ocean and accumulated shells and diatoms over millions of years, before the sea receded and the land emerged. Plant life has been successfully adapting to these soil conditions ever since.

I'm going to assume that you live in the midwest somewhere, and the guy from Wisconsin is spot on, the soils here on the prairie formed under limestone bedrock, and as the glaciation reworked the topsoil, more of the bedrock got mixed in. And since lime is used to raise the pH of farmland that has been acidified by inorganic sources or fertilizer, that's why your soils are alkaline.

To explain pH and it's relation to nutrients, it requires a basic understanding of chemistry, so forgive me if I explain too much.

pH is a representation of the negative logarithm of the concentration of hydrogen ions (+) in a given medium, be it water, or soil, or whatever. Many nutrients are negatively charged. For explanatory purposes lets take Iron (Fe-). Iron is a micronutrient for blueberries, absolutely essential for good fruit production.

There are several forms of iron available in the soil, but as the pH raises, ie, as the concentration of POSITIVELY charged hydrogen ions goes up, the negatively charged Iron binds with it, and becomes unavailable for the plant to uptake.

Hydrangeas and blueberries love iron, and many common plants will tolerate a range of pH in the soil anywhere up to a pH of 8. Anything over 8 and too many of the nutrients in the soil are locked up, unavailable.

If the pH is too low, if the pH drops below 5, SO much iron can become available that it could become toxic to the plant. So you want a slight acidity to the soil, a pH of 6.5 will ensure that an abundant amount of nutrients will be available to your entire range of plants, from beans to corn to watermelon.

With blueberries they will thrive in soil with a pH below 5 though, so pH needs are different for specialty plants.

Now, Iron is not the only nutrient important here; copper, boron, even molybdenum is a micronutrient for plants, I just used it above as an example. And it's not just micronutrients, All nutrients are affected by pH levels and can become unavailable if the pH is too high or too low.

The reason why Sulfur will lower pH is that when Sulfur is applied to the soil, it reacts with water and oxygen to form 2 S + 3 O2 + 2 H2O ---> H2SO4 or Sulfuric acid, which will lower the pH.

Now, I must say that most of the time soil pH can be lowered adequately simply by fertilizing with any kind of ammonium-N. But you can either use Ammonium Sulphate, or straight sulfur to lower your pH to where you want. Straight sulfur is as hard as you can hit pH levels, you get the most bang for your buck.

2 NH4 + 3 O2 ---> NO2 + 2 H2O + 4H

Or if you don't want any N with your pH adjustments, you can use Aluminum Sulphate

AL2(SO4)3 + 6 H2O ---> 2Al(OH)3 + H2SO4

Where exactly do you hail from, and what are you trying to grow? We can give you specific pH levels to target for specific plants, and which amendments would be appropriate for each application and each plant type.

Where in the United States are you. That informatiuon is more important then the USDAs Plant Hardiness Zone. Some places with lower rainfall can have soils with higher pH and some places, because of high levels of limestone can have soils with a higher soil pH. The link below is to a chart that shows which nutrients are available at which pH levels and most nutrients are most readily available in the 6.2 to 6.8 soil pH range.

Here is a link that might be useful: Chart

Thank you for your responses. You're right, I did leave out some important information.
I'm located in the Roanoke Valley (western part of Virginia) at the foot of the Blue Ridge Mtns. I planted butterfly bushes in the spring and have recently planted four crape myrtles and eleven Japanese maples. I understand that most land east of the Mississippi is on the acid side, so I was a bit concerned when the soil test for two different areas came back with alkaline readings. On the other hand, five additional areas that I tested and which are in a different area of the property have pH values of 6.6, 5.8, 5.8, 5.3 and 5.0. Local residents tell me that these acid readings are the norm for most of this county. Additional details from the soil tests:
1. Organic matter, as a percentage, is between 4.4 and 5.2 in these areas.
2. Magnesium and calcium were listed as "High" or "Very High" in all cases.
3. Phosphorus and potassium were listed between "Medium" and "Very High" except for the two alkaline samples, where the phosphorus was listed as "Low" or "Low Medium". (I realize that ratings such as "Very High", are subjective by nature and may not be all that helpful. But the soil report does provide specific numerical results for these chemicals: for example, calcium is 1696(lb/A). If these would be helpful, I'll be glad to provide them.)
4. Zinc, manganese, copper, iron and boron were all rated "Sufficient".
While the report gave no recommendations for sulfur, it did provide specific lime recommendations for those soils with pH Sorry about this overload of data, but I wanted to present you with a more complete picture.
A few additional questions. Is this a "safe" time of the year to make lime/sulfur applications (especially with newly planted trees)? Or should I hold off until spring? Given that the two alkaline soils were only 7.8 and 7.9, respectively, would the application of sulfur be necessary?
Hope I haven't muddied the waters. Any suggestions/advice would be helpful and most welcome.
gary

Don't be so apologetic, most of us on here are experts, and if we aren't experts we try to learn all we can, your information was not an overload, it tells us a lot more.

You are spot on, soils out there tend to be acidic, anything that formed under timber will tend to be acidic.

Crape myrtles prefer an acidic soil, in the neighborhood of 5.0 to 6.5.

Butterfly Bushes prefer a pH between 6.0 and 7.0

Japanese maples thrive in anything from 5.5 to 6.5.

It looks like your pH ranges head in a specific direction, Did you walk in one direction as you took your soil samples? I'm wondering if you plot out where you walked, you will see some correlation or geographic reason why the pH drops for certain areas.

Generally, what you would want to see is the pH to be adjusted gradually, but it depends on a couple of factors, I suspect that the two readings that are alkaline are due to their proximity to the road, I see high pH values next to the road from the gravel and limestone in the gravel that is applied next to my farm. pH values close to 8 in soil that is inherently 5.5 and lower means that something outside is causing the pH to be that high.

Either the road, applications of gravel, something is over there adding alkalinity to the soil. If you aren't growing anything by the road then it's not a worry, but if you have your trees there, then you need to adjust the pH. Aluminum sulphate would probably work well for you, spread around the drip lines of the trees - at the rate recommended on the bag. Ammonium sulphate might have too much N for trees, they prefer fertility levels to be in balance, and more N can lead to rapid leaf and branch growth at the expense of root production.

They sell bags of "soil acidifier" at lowe's, it comes with instructions on the bag, that should do for what you are looking to achieve. Right now I am trying to get 3 Holly bushes to grow around my house, they prefer an acid soil, and my ground is alkaline. Throughout the winter will be a perfect time to adjust the pH. Calculate the amount of sulphur you need to apply to lower the pH, and then split the applications from one big hit into 2 or 3 around your trees in the alkaline areas.

I really don't think you need to apply any lime, unless you have a vegetable garden in the acidic area. If you are just looking after trees, they will prefer the acidic soil.

If you want to bring the lower pH values up, I suggest using hydrated lime (also called slaked lime), it's in any garden store or lowe's/home depot. Hydrated lime works fast, but be sure not to get it directly on any plants that you like, hydrated lime is caustic, it sucks the moisture out of things. I applied some onto my tomato plants the first year I gardened - since my grandad always limed his stuff - and I promptly burnt all the leaves off every tomato plant.

With hydrated lime, the application rates per point pf pH are on the bag.

As for the nutrients, they stand to reason. If you think about how pH functions, then alkaline areas will have more P and K locked up. Are there numbers on your soil test, like P1 and P2? Those numbers are the different kinds of phosphorous present in your soil, in different forms. P1 is readily available to plants, P2 needs to be broken down some. It gives farmers some idea of whether their P1 will run out during the next growing season, and depending on how much P2 is present, it tells them if they need to add more phosphorous.

Your organic matter looks good, nice and healthy. I'd apply some sulfur in the alkaline areas, and only apply lime if you are gardening in the areas with the pH lower than 6.0. The fall is the best time to adjust pH, everything is winding down, and plants wont be shocked by changes in pH.

As a rule soils east of the Mississippi tend to be acidic because of the amount of rainfall we get while those west of the Mississippi tend to be alkaline because of the more arid (lack of rainfall) area they are in.
Unless you are on a limestone ridge the only explanation for a high reading of Calcium and Magnesium in your soil is that someone applied some a short time ago. You can apply sulfur to lower that pH, and fall is the time to do that since it can take some time for the change to occur. Do you need to? That is debatable. Most soil nutrients are most readily available in soils with a pH in the 6.0 to 6.8 range, so is a 7.8 pH all that bad and need to be corrected? There may be some nutrients plants growing in that soil might not get enough of but probably there would not be a nutrient deficiency of enough proportion to need correction.

Appreciate the input. Will check with co-op office for geological data and typical pH for this region tomorrow. Looked up sites regarding lime application rates, which led me to other sites about the various types of lime, nutrients, toxicity concerns, etc. pH is more critical than I realized. I now know enough to be dangerous ... and I don't want the plants to suffer the consequences. :0)
Given that I have only a small number of trees, is the hydrated lime the best way to go? What about agricultural lime? (I mention this because the local co-op office was adamant that aglime was the only type to use. Plus they indicated that, given the high and very high ratings for calcium and magnesium in the soil, I should use something that did not supply an excessive amount of either.) Is there a possibility that I could reach toxic levels regarding calcium or magnesium?
Am not going to do anything with the alkaline soil at this point. Sounds as if trying to bring the pH down is a never ending battle that can be won only temporarily. Given all that I've read here, I'd really like to make an effort with lime on those soils that are extremely acid.
gary

" anything that formed under timber will tend to be acidic."

Sorry, this is not correct. Timber has absolutely nothing to do with soil pH. How acidic a soil is is based on the chemistry of the underlying mineral content and the amount of rainfall. Areas with heavy rainfall and naturally acidic minerals will have acidic soils - drier areas with less acidic mineral content will have more neutral soil chemistry while very arid areas tend to be quite alkaline.

Trees grow in areas that suit their pH preference but they most certainly do not create it - this is a common misconception. And some trees prefer neutral to rather alkaline soil conditions so they are not even a good indication of soil pH. Unless you know your trees pretty darn well.

Be careful what "experts" one listens to :-))

Gary, the easiest thing for you is to go with the flow. I would not necessarily attempt to alter pH significantly. Takes time, soils can buffer change, and so easy to over- or under-do. Just adding organic matter can help a lot, especially compost. It tends to neutralize pH to some degree so can help to even out both low and high readings. I am also not sure I would put too much weight on those high readings.......with generally acidic soil conditions (such as much of the eastern seaboard has), it is highly unusual to have wide swings in pH levels without some sort of anomaly - a big chunk of limestone or concrete buried, previous applications of specific chemicals, etc.

I think sometimes we become too tunnel-visioned or fixated about our soil conditions. Any soil can be "fixed" but more often than not, soils do not need any more fixing than what working in a reasonable quantity of OM will achieve. Since most plants tolerate a reasonably wide range of soil pH you are not necessarily exceptionally limited. Personally, I find drainage issues to be a far more worrisome gardening situation than most pH issues.

Right, timber has nothing to do with pH. Wood chips don't have a low pH either, and leaves won't contribute to lowering pH. I guess all those tests showing pH numbers lower than 7 for all of the above are just plain wrong.

Cercis canadensis 4.3
Quercus coccinea 4.3
Quercus coccinea 4.5
Pinus virginiana 4.4
Pinus rigida 4.4
Prunus serotina 4.5
Acer saccharum 4.5
Acer saccharum 4.6
Quercus alba 4.6
Nyssa sylvatica 4.6
Quercus stellata 4.6
Juglans nigra 4.6
Juglans nigra 4.7
Carya cordiformis 4.6
Pinus pungens 4.6
Acer rubrum 4.7
Pinus strobus 4.8
Quercus velutina 5
Quercus velutina 5.5
Carya glabra 5
Carya ovalis 5
Quercus rubra 5.2
Carya tomentosa 5.2
Quercus muehlenbergii 5.3
Quercus prinus 5.3
Quercus prinus 5.3
Acer nigrum 5.4
Populus grandidentata 5.5
Cornus florida 5.5
Cornus florida 6
Juniperus virginiana 5.8
Fraxinus americana 5.8
Fraxinus americana 6.1
Fagus grandifolia 5.8
Fagus grandifolia 6.4
Fagus grandifolia 6.9
Liriodendron tulipifera 5.8
Liriodendron tulipifera 6.1
Crataegus crus-galli 6.5
Tilia heterophylla 6.7
Tilia heterophylla 6.7

Above is a list of different types of deciduous leaves and their respective pH levels. The best part is, while it only took me a moment to find the data that I needed to back up what I was saying and cite it here for you, those tests were taken from trees in the Shenandoah Valley, making it serendipitous and informative at the same time!

I could paste links to several dozen sites that I have just read, now - because I wanted to be sure of what I was posting - and double checking what I learned in school on the off chance that I might be wrong. But I'm not going to do everything for you.

Take your criticisms about how much I am unqualified to be an "expert" and shove them. I used the verb "tend" so that the reader would know that often times, but not always, dirt with trees on top will be acidic because of the trees - over the thousands of years of decaying wood and dropping leaves, and yes, I know that leaves will decompose into something that is *almost* but not quite neutral (yet still being slightly acidic - and just where does the acid in the leaves go?), but the fact remains that soil can be just as affected by what grows in it as it is by what the parent material was when it formed. In any case, I was just making a general comment about soils that formed under upland timber as opposed to prairie, which doesn't really apply to Virginia, but it codifies the differences which I was trying to illustrate and highlight. If I wanted to get technical and confuse they guy I would start talking about how the soils on the eastern seaboard are Inceptisols and Ultisols and how In Illinois we have Mollisols and Alfisols.

Your comment about compost "evening out" pH levels...

I mean good god, just google "Cation Exchange Capacity" or "How acidic soils form" and you'll realize just how ignorant your entire post actually is.

No disrespect, but I do this for a living - Agriculture that is, not arguing. pH *is* the entire ball game when we are talking about how to nurture our chosen plants and make them grow, organic matter has more to do with nutrient and moisture retention - aaaaaaand before you rebut, you must google and comprehend the above cation exchange capacity.

This is why my posts are so frickin long, I try and write them so no one can come along and make a comment about how wrong I am, because I am tired of saying something, and then reading the responses that are posted from people just looking to argue with other people, no matter what the subject matter is. Dang internet trolls.

And I'm sorry OP, I meant to answer you about Hydrated Lime, but I got distracted. Ag Lime is just ground limestone or chalk, hydrated lime is when you take fine limestone powder and mix it or "slake" it with water to get Calcium Hydroxide.

Any garden store will have small bags of Hi-Yield Hydrated Lime, and I just said it by name to try and be helpful. Hydrated Lime will work quicker than Ag Lime, and the smaller bags should be just what you need for a couple of trees, you won't need very much to bring the pH up around your trees.

- and you really only need it where the pH levels were the lowest - if at all. If you have a garden plot it would be much better to raise the pH for your vegetables to something near 6.5. Trees really don't mind moderately acidic soil, and if you don't have a garden I wouldn't worry about applying lime.

GardenGal, All things being equal, you would be correct - However things are not equal.

Your statements apply to whole areas of soil formation on a continent wide basis, and I was trying to be more specific about certain soil types on a more individual basis.

Parent material, weathering, and rainfall has more to do with pH when you look at hundreds of thousands of square miles of soils. But when you zoom in what you will see is areas which have a tendency to be grassy (IE areas which year in and year out lack the rainfall to support young trees and are thus open grassy areas) will have a different acidity/alkalinity than areas which have grown up in trees, within the context of what the predominant soil is in the area of the continent.

Sorry for posting yet again, however I felt like my above statements might have been slightly unclear or left the impression that I was making sweeping generalities.

Research done by Dr. Abigail Maynard, phD in soil science, at the UCONN Ag Research Station in New haven, Conn. found that after years of adding Oak Leaves to one soil plot and pine needles to another did not significantly change the pH of those soil plots.
I find the end pH of my compost made of a lot of tree leaves and pine needles, along with other material, will always be near 7.0. If deciduous tree leaves were to change soil pH why would compost not be quite acidic?

Because I totally said that the leaves were the only thing at work there - in fact I'm sure that I said above that the leaves were almost neutral. Adding leaves to dirt and checking the results over a handful of years is not the same thing as soil evolution, with decaying trees and... oh just read.

Here is a link that might be useful: Forrest Soil

Thank Chris CL, gardengal48, kimmsr, et. al. Quite a spirited debate, but that's how I'll learn.
As promised, I checked with the local co-op office and they verified that this area was alkaline (I believe they referred to a limestone "shelf".) But they were confounded that the high alkaline readings were found at the bottom of the slope and high acidity pH was found at the top. Said that the higher acidity is normally found at the bottom of the slope; perhaps my sampling methods were the culprit. They're most likely correct. (For each area, I made a center point, where I took a sample; I then drew a circle about twenty feet from the center point and took samples from points along the circumference. Maybe I needed to take samples along an irregular path.) And I can verify, without doubt, that no fertilizer, lime or amendments have been applied to the property during the past 25+ years. Knew the former property owner; plants and lawn care were never a concern of his. :0)
gary

Right, timber has nothing to do with pH. Wood chips don't have a low pH either, and leaves won't contribute to lowering pH. I guess all those tests showing pH numbers lower than 7 for all of the above are just plain wrong

Whether or not the leaves, needles or chips/bark are low in pH themselves has minimal impact on soil pH. Once decomposition is under way, the pH of these material approaches neutral. Yes, you can get some leaching of the acidity of these items on the soil surface but IT HAS NO MEASURABLE IMPACT ON SOIL PH. In fact, most sources indicate these materials will tend to slighty raise pH via decomposition.

Sources:
University of Wisconsin: http://wood.uwex.edu/2010/11/18/pine-needles-cause/

Oklahoma State University:
http://www.soiltesting.okstate.edu/Extn_Pub/F-2239web.pdf

Oregon State University:
http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/pdf/ec/ec1629-e.pdf

University of Illinois:
http://www.aces.uiuc.edu/vista/html_pubs/mulch/MULCH.html

USDA
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=223401

And finally, from a company that specializes in gathering and distributing pine straw mulches throughout the southeast:
http://www.pinestrawdirect.com/PineStrawMulchAcidity-SeparatingFactFromFictionThroughAnalyticalTesting.pdf

This concept that mulches or plant litter can lower or acidify soil pH is a long held horticultural myth. Any significant impact these products may have on soil pH would be the product of thousands of years and on untouched soils, generally not a situation encountered in any modern day garden or other cultivated area. I'm sorry if I put the weight of my argument behind scientific documentation rather than some GW member's opinion but extensive university and agricultural studies have shown that plant litter - regardless of source and of initial pH value itself - has minimal impact on a soil's pH.

Hi Terratoma: I would not worry about soil pH. I'm into growing roses. I have 42 rose bushes. Rose does best at pH 6.5, my soil pH is 7.7. Other rose growers with soil pH of 8 have great roses? Why? Clustered roots secret acids to utilize soil nutrients. That's why roses grafted on Dr. Huey (clustered roots) do great on alkaline soil. Roses on own-root? It depends on its genetics ... Some are dark green in alkaline soil, some are yellowish.

Some plants like Azaleas and Rhododrendrons can't secret enough acid to utilize nutrients in soil. I give these acid-loving plants tons of acid fertilizer. It doesn't help, they are still yellowish. My soil is tested high in magnesium, low in potassium and phospohorus, pH of 7.7.

We have a huge harvest of tomatoes every year, same with zucchini, peppers, cucumber, pears, and peaches. A few of my Hybrid tea roses give 20+ per flush. I don't even bother adjust my soil pH, some plants' roots can secret acid. I concentrate on topdressing with compost & manure to give what's lacking in my soil: potassium and phosphorus.

Here is a link that might be useful: Acid phosphatase secretion in clustered root

Chris, you should examine your own approach and choice of words before accusing others of being trolls.

I always check with the experts first. Below is what 2 doctorates at University of Ohio Extension wrote:

"The pH (acidity or alkalinity) of soil can be changed depending on the mulch selected. For example, most composts will be slightly alkaline (pH greater than 7) and excellent for use in acidic soil regions, while continuous use of oak leaves, pine needles, pine bark and sphagnum peat moss will increase acidity. The breakdown products of leaves, including oak leaves, will be alkaline, but continuous use of oak, pine and sphagnum peat moss products will keep the soil surface acidic (pH less than 7).

... materials such as straw, wood chips and sawdust have high carbon to nitrogen ratios; and therefore, nitrogen must be added to the soil at the time of mulching. The high carbon to nitrogen ratio materials are easily decomposed by microorganisms. The microorganisms require nitrogen to multiply and survive."

My take on the above: I have 5 white pines (prefer acid soil). There are tons of pine needles in the ground over a 12 years period. All are chlorotic (yellowish due to my pH 7.7), except for one: it's next to 2 corkscrew willow's roots - known to secret acid in the soil.

University of Illinois with their own research stated that the net result of leaf compost is slightly alkaline. Oak is the most acidic of all leaves. Chicago Botanical garden, with 5,000 roses and thousands of plants - stated that their soil pH is 7.4 with composted leaves.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ohio State University Extension

All this talk about something that does not matter? :)

I cant wait to hear what people say to- We have been farming a long time without even knowing what ph is.

A farmer uses nothing but plant ash to feed his field, scientest and reporters tested the soil, it was above a ph of 8!!!! The crops grew great. Why? Becuase of the compost and manure in the field makes for a huge micro population that will allow plants to uptake NUTRIENTS no matter the ph.

So yea, ph does not matter. ;)

Edit: A farmer uses plant ash, compost, manure,ect....

The ash is most of what they used.

While my grandfather did not know much about a soils pH he did know that there were "sweet" and "sour" soils and you determined that by tasting. He also knew that some plantys grew better in "sweet" soils while others did better in "sour" soils and that he learned from his father who emigratd here from Bavaria.
I realize there are some people that accept the "my granfather did it this way" train of thought without realizing, apparently, the advances in knowledge since that time. It was very important to my great grandparents that their children get a high school education, something not at all common back then, and it was very important to my grandparents that their children get a college education, something not all that common back then either.
Use the tools we have today to help us grow better foods, but don't use the tools that do not contribute to the betterment of our environment.

The PH of soil has more to do with climate than anything else. In areas with high rainfall, the soils tend to be more acidic as lime is easily leached from the soil. Around here, the rises (clay knobs) tend to be fairly acidic, while the floodplains and bottomlands tend to be neutral - the soil on our property is a clay loam, with a PH of around 6.2. We get around 40 inches of rain a year, on average, with the rainfall increasing to the south and east.

Hold on, let me rephrase that...

The CLIMATE has more to do with the PH OF THE SOIL than anything else.

Hopefully that makes more sense!

Darn, I thought maybe we had a solution to climate change there. :-D

Maybe this will help some.

Here is a link that might be useful: About soil pH

I was pretty much done arguing with you, as I had said everything pertinent to the conversation in my posts above. After taking several days to step back and disconnect from the discussion, I have to point out that the sources you cite above *actually* support my assertions, as do your offhand comments - which if you'll recall above was "soils that form under upland timber vegetation will tend to have a lower pH"

Through thousands of years of soil formation low lying areas - that are year in and year out "wetter" - lend themselves to timber vegetation, which when broken down over those thousands of years impart a downward pressure on acidity levels through increased Hydrogen and Aluminum cations -

(http://www.soiltesting.okstate.edu/Extn_Pub/F-2239web.pdf)
- Wow, I used your own source against you!

as opposed to soils that form under prairie grasses which have an increased concentration of Calcium and Magnesium. In the midwest, plagioclase feldspar was deposited here from glaciation and gives our older more weathered prairie soils a higher pH (and poorer drainage due to the sodium), except in cases where the soils formed along creeks, in timber vegetation. Whether or not the wetter soils that formed in timber lend their lower pH to increased leeching or organic matter breaking down over the years is certainly open for debate, if anyone wants to get that technical over it.

You seem to miss the basic point, I was trying to inform readers of my post about how certain areas of their soil can be impacted based on what grew there over the duration of soil formation(tens of thousands of years), not talk about acidity levels and how they could be changed with mulches.

And I am not some fool GW member spouting off at the mouth, I studied agronomy at the University of Illinois, graduated cum laude with a bachelors of science in agriculture, and was ranked 13th in the national soil judging competition.

The processes I discuss in all of my above posts are in the context of soil formation, and not to human applied amendments. They take thousands of years to happen in the natural world. Quite frankly not many people are dorky enough to care about how or why soils are the way they are, I just like to add a little history into my posts, for those that might be as curious as I. The information cited in previous posts about the acidity of timber vegetation was not to be used to show that it is an immediate or ready source of acidic material to be used for lowering pH, I was using it to illustrate how, over time, it can give downward pressure on pH levels through hundreds of centuries of decay.

Perhaps I need a disclaimer at the bottom of all my posts, I thought I was doing a good job of bracketing what I was saying. :)

And I am not some fool GW member spouting off at the mouth, I studied agronomy at the University of Illinois, graduated cum laude with a bachelors of science in agriculture, and was ranked 13th in the national soil judging competition.

Blow a little harder. I don't think that the people indoors could hear your horn in some of the low lying portions Bosnia.

gargwarb:
"Blow a little harder. I don't think that the people indoors could hear your horn in some of the low lying portions Bosnia."
---------------------------

Keep posting posts like this and all who read it will know you are a legend in your own mind.

RpR, for someone rather new to these forums, you certainly have developed some rather strong opinions about what and who are appropriate topics or meaningful posters.

Since there is a considerable history of meaningful and informative and......get ready for the BIG one........accurate posts by those you seem to disparage, maybe you should just sit back and watch and learn before putting your foot in it any further, hmmmm??????

This forum sometimes gives me much needed chuckles, when I don't take it too seriously.

Remember that Oh God! movie with John Denver and George Burns?

"And I've personally been invited to give the Benediction at this year's Super Bowl!" - Rev. Willie Williams

Keep posting posts like this and all who read it will know you are a legend in your own mind.

You know, it's not my feelings that I'm concerned with because I'm relatively thick-skinned but look at what your post did to my cat.

{{gwi:307008}}

How does that make you feel?

not a legend in my own mind. Seldom in my right mind.

And still looking for experts here...some have generally better advice, some don't, but extremely few qualify as expert.

By the way, as long as chris answered the question, he had some of the most accurate, best advice i've seen yet on this forum. It's when he started making value judgements that he crossed a line.

Agreed. He and GG were both making good points and it was fun to watch the spirited debate (although I think the bulk of the "debate" aspect came from the fact that they were actually talking about two different things. That is; amending vs. soil formation).
When Chris started getting personal and then called us all "fools" I took offense.

Poor kitty needs a hug.

Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on
Tue, Oct 2, 12 at 18:52

---"RpR, for someone rather new to these forums, you certainly have developed some rather strong opinions about what and who are appropriate topics or meaningful posters.

Since there is a considerable history of meaningful and informative and......get ready for the BIG one........accurate posts by those you seem to disparage, maybe you should just sit back and watch and learn before putting your foot in it any further, hmmmm??????"---

Hmmmm.

Did you write this right after going over to the mirror and saying- Mirror, mirror on the wall...?

Out of the 9 responses you made to this and the 'overamended soil' post, RpR, only one had any sort of gardening/soil-related content. The rest were simply criticisms of either the OP or other posters.

Talk about the classic definition of troll......

My post here was to gargwarb.

Had he been actively debating with Chris, I would merely have kept reading but he decided to make a snide remark about something he was not part of. I merely responded in the same style he did, to him.
Now it was not addressed to you or anyone else, so your point is?

As for the other thread, take it there, or go back to your mirror.

RpR, I don't think we can really move on here until you've apologized to my cat.

What is his/her name?

Nice thread and a nice cat :))

Soft kitty warm kitty little ball of fur..... Nice kitty warm kitty purr purrr purrr..... taken from "The big bang theory".

I Live in Minnesota and I use Living water made by Vollara its a water Ionizer that I can have my PH level in my water anywhere from 2ph to 13ph. This year I sprayed my grapes apples and pear trees with 9ph to keep the bugs and crap off my plants. This year my pears and apples have never been better and my grapes are bigger than usual. If you are interested go to www.myvollara.com/stormking and see a total different way to good health and how water is used for some many application and works great on trees and plants. You can use it to control your ph in your soil for optimal results as long as its a back yard garden.