Third photo showing tea-like profile of a bloom, and a bud.

Another bloom with a bud...

Thanks for any help you can provide.

On HelpMeFind, check out 'Ducher.' See what you think.

(Love your photos!)

Please read the post-script first...

I'm hesitant to disagree with Jeri, whom I esteem greatly. , however, to me the foliage of your rose appears to be different from the 'Ducher' I grew, I see your rose as having thicker leaves, (not wider) for instance.
I got rid of 'Ducher' because it defoliated from powdery mildew.
The foliage appears immaculate, does your friend spray with anything?
If I remember correctly the new foliage of 'Ducher' is reddish, and reddish- green.
- could you please post photographs;
1. Of new foliage, when the leaves are about 1/3rd of their mature size, and less. ?
2. of an 18" length of cane showing armature, and hips, if any?
I would guess your rose is an early Hybrid Tea, perhaps a Tea-Hybrid, a rose that has a Tea parent; I'd say a Tea parent because it has such short and thin pedicles, with the nodding flowers one sees in Tea class roses and their immediate hybrids such as 'Mrs. Herbert Stevens'
However your beautiful white rose does not seem to be as floriferous as I'd expect 'Ducher' to be, which leads my mind to the Hybrid Tea class.
Could you please:
-measure off a square yard of the bush, near the top of the canopy, when it is in full bloom and count the number of rosebuds and blooms?
A typical Hybrid Tea with a canopy that is 5' tall by 4' wide often has between 30 to 40 blooms.
An Old Garden Tea of the same size can have more than 400 blooms on the same measure of canopy.
(I'm a bit of a nut for documentation when it comes to roses, and I spent hours counting rose blossoms per cultivar in the H.T. and Tea classes, when I was volunteering in a public Old Rose garden) which is how I came to that average.

The last criteria I use in identifying a rose that I use is fragrance, there are so many pink H.T.s that have similar blooms, prickles and leaves that a few times the scent of bloom led me to identifying a rose that had stumped me.

Does your rose have any scent?
Strength of scent between 1 and 10, with 10 being the strongest.
Type of scent:
A. Damask type. The scent we hope for when we put a red modern rose to our nose.
B. Sweet, with mixed floral notes.
C. Old Garden Tea, which can be complex with several scent notes.
D. Fresh scent, may smell a bit like a green apple.
E. does it have another dominant scent note? such as "ripe stone fruit"
or a spice such as clove?
F. Other.

Could someone please do a search on helpmefind.com for a
-white
-Hybrid Tea
- introduced before 1940?
Because I lack a paying membership, or I would be glad to do it myself.

It is a lovely rose, thanks for posting photos.
Lux.

P.S.
Heck, now that I've written all this I looked up photos of my favorite white Tea-Hybrid; 'Mrs. Herbert Stevens' on helpmefind.com/roses under "search".
'Mrs. Herbert Stevens was introduced in 1910, It is a Tea-Hybrid that was bred by crossing the seed parent, a Hybrid Perpetual named
'Frau Karl Druski' with
the pollen parent of an exquisite white Tea rose named 'Niphetos' .
I've suggested Mrs. Herbert Stevens to folks who want a Tea rose but live in a colder climate than a Tea can tolerate..
the climbing form was introduced in 1922.
I think that, lacking photos of the prickles and scent description 'Mrs. Herbert Stevens' may be your rose, especially after I looked at the the bloom of it posted by Ami Roses 2005.
I also think the foliage of your rose more closely resembles M.H.S. than 'Ducher'. Bloom alone makes up only c. 25% of the identification criteria.
whatever it is, it's a stunner!

Lux.

Looks a lot like Mrs. Herbert Stevens to me.

What a great find that would be!

Now, I just wish MY mysterious white rose was as identifiable.

Thank you both for your thoughtful replies, and I agree that whatever it is, this is a photogenic rose!

Before I forget to mention it, this rose is also pretty care-free. It gets watered and probably fertilized on occasion, but not sprayed, and I haven't seen any signs of black spot or other problems.

I did search around HMF quite a bit before asking here. I looked at 'Ducher', 'Mme Joseph Schwartz', 'White Maman Cochet', and 'Mrs Herbert Stevens'- they are all so beautiful, but I didn't see that the flowers showed their stamens (is there a better term for this?) as consistently as these flowers. I keep wanting to say open-faced, but that sounds like a sandwich.

'Ducher' has all that lovely red foliage, and I haven't noticed that with this plant, but I do think the flowers look similar from the side. I haven't seen any of those full, petally blooms on this plant to match the photos of Ducher, though.

The rose is pleasantly- though not strongly- fragrant, but I'd hesitate to say it's tea-like. It smells rose-like, as opposed to just generically floral. My sense of smell is not always reliable, and it's been a few weeks since I last smelled them so I'm reluctant to say more.

The ID I was mulling over longest is Pemberton's 'Pax'. It has similarly silky-looking petals, and combines those open-faced blooms showing stamens with a profile that looks tea-like to me. Do you think that's possible, or not so much?

I know I may be wayyyy off base with that, and I'm going mostly by the flower shape, but the leaves and buds also look somewhat like online photos- at least to my untrained eye, and I am very, very new to roses. The Hybrid Tea look would fit, wouldn't it, given Pax's Pernetiana heritage?

The rose is not blooming just now- I went and took some cuttings from it- and several other roses- this afternoon. Hopefully, I'll get some roots on a few of those cuttings. Whoever it is, it does well in this climate, so I know I want to try it.

It is starting to set hips now, but I forgot my camera, so will have to try again in a few days for more photos of new foliage & prickles. (I'm guessing that prickles = thorns?)

Meanwhile, I'm including a link to my original post at the 'Name that Rose' forum, since it has a different set of photos.

Thanks again for looking,
Virginia

Here is a link that might be useful: original post with more pix

I think 'Mrs Herbert Stevens' is lovely, but her blooms are so full, and this rose's blooms aren't. Also, should the petioles (had to look up rose anatomy for that one) be reddish year-round if this is MHS, or is that more likely to be dependent on light, temperature, or something else?

I also meant to ask that about 'Ducher' and its reddish foliage- should I expect to see reddish foliage on a 'Ducher' at any time of year, or just sometimes?

Just another idea, Madame Jules Bouche.

vmr423 - I am also voting for Pax. Mine looks very similar - I will post 3 pics. The last pic is of a partially opened bud - they are the most amazing shape on my Pax - what I would call "high shouldered".

First pic is of an open bloom - they do this consistently - looks just like your pic to me.

Jackie

Another pic of my Pax:

Last pic of my Pax - I did not see any buds quite this far along among your pics. This is my favorite stage of the bloom, and is also consistent.

Jackie

Madame Jules Bouché is so beautiful! A few of the flower pix at HMF look almost like blushed gardenias.

But in the HMF photos she looks consistently peachy, and this rose is pretty consistently creamy white with a few touches of pink that I suspect are virus-induced.

MJB goes on my dream-about rose list, but I think those photos that Jackie posted of her 'Pax' have convinced me that that's the same rose...

Jackie, thanks so much for posting those beautiful pix of 'Pax'... I was really hoping someone who had this rose could say 'yea' or 'nay', and I agree that the resemblance is pretty strong.

The buds look so much alike, too. Until I started trying to compare buds in photos, I pretty much assumed that a rosebud was a rosebud, but they are surprisingly- to me, anyway- variable.

After reading what you wrote about late-stage buds, I went back to look for a match in any of my photos. I didn't find one, but there's a bud in the attached photo that looks like it's thinking about trying out that pose- what do you think?

I am trying to think positively, and so am assuming at least one cutting will root for me. Any quirks about 'Pax' that you think I should know about? Is she disease-free where you are? I can give her a sunny spot if she needs it, but if she doesn't mind dappled shade, I can keep her closer to the house where I can see her more easily. Space is not a problem, and we have great compost on offer, so lighting is really my only concern.

Thanks to everyone who posted- I learned a lot.

Virginia

Looks like my cl Lady Devoniensis.

Cl Devoniensis is much more double than this one appears to be, which is another reason I think it is Pax, which is semi-double.

Here is a pic I just took 5 minutes ago of the last bloom on my Pax bush right now (although there are more clusters of baby buds - yay!). Looks even more like the open bloom vmr423 posted above, and the one on the link. ALL of the blooms on my Pax do this (open fully and show their stamens), eventually.

Mine hardly ever sets hips - the little stems the flowers are on just dry up and fall off.

vmr423 - yes, the late stage bud (I knew there had to be a term for that!) you posted looks right. Also, the buds on my bush, as soon as they start to show color, are a noticeable cream color, and then turn creamy white. The buds in your pics appear to be doing the same thing.

The next time yours blooms, please post lots of pics of the late stage buds - mine get quite large, and are gorgeous.

My bush is growing in fairly dark partial shade. It probably only gets 1-2 hours of direct sun a day. I am sure it would like more, and would bloom more if it got more sun, but it does OK and is healthy - I never spray any of my roses.

Hope this is helpful.

I agree that Devoniensis has a fuller bloom than the rose in my photos. It seems to have a somewhat more colorful flower, also.

Jackie, your rose certainly looks healthy, so your shady location obviously suits it pretty well. That's a relief since we have lots of trees, so not a lot of out-and-out full sun.

I wasn't sure if you had to spray to keep it looking so nice, but the one here manages our heat and humidity pretty well without much attention (well, except when I come to visit and drool over it). Good news since I don't like to use any chemicals in the yard.

The rose here is definitely setting some hips- I wonder if that's because it's in a fairly sunny location. It is not ready to bloom again- I didn't see any buds when I visited yesterday- but I will keep an eye out for the budding behavior you described (and photographed). Something to look forward to...

I've got some cuttings of Lady Banks (yellow and white versions) that look like they're rooting. Yesterday, I took cuttings of 'Pax', 'Mutabilis', a rose that I think may be 'Mrs B R Cant', and also a rose with a small, fragrant, lovely purple flower that might be 'Reine des Violettes'. I figure that any or all of these will be good 'beginner roses' for my location.

Thanks again,
Virginia

Good luck with all your cuttings, Virginia! It sounds like you have some beauties in your garden. Your white (possibly Pax) is gorgeous...as is Jackie's Pax. Carol

Sheesh, I hope my Pax looks like that! Very excited for Pax now :) Great pics, everyone!

Thanks, Carol, for the encouragement. I am lucky to have these great roses available for cuttings, since I'm on a tight budget, but would love to introduce some roses into our yard.

Even if the cuttings take, I know there's no guarantee that they'll do well here, but I think my chances are good since they're time-tested roses for our area/climate.

Thanks again,
Virginia

muscovyduckling, I'm hoping I can introduce 'Pax' into my yard successfully, too! Assuming that the photos I posted ARE of 'Pax', and I really do think it probably is.

Yours, though, is a certified 'Pax', and I have a feeling that it will do well for you- it seems to be a sturdy and adaptable variety.

Be sure to post photos when it blooms! (When do you usually see roses start blooming in your part of Oz?)

Best regards,
Virginia

Hi Virginia, we usually see blooms late October.... But I haven't even received my baby Pax yet, so it might be a really long wait until blooms. Until then, I will look at everyone else's pics.

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water, I have more photos: of thorns, hips, leaves, etc.

Starting with thorns...

Leaves...

Two hips...

A fat hip...

A visitor (Carolina Anole)- although I suppose that most of you don't have these in your roses...

And one more photo of a fat hip...

Is it just me, or are all the photos I posted here missing? What I see is a 'Sorry, this image is not available at this time" message. Does that mean the image will be available at a later time?

Always curious,

Virginia

Not just you. ALL of the photos are now missing. I'm sorry. I was very curious to see them.

The ironic thing is that my original post to the 'Name that Rose' forum (with different photos) still has its photos. There weren't as many, so perhaps that's why?

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/2132624/could-this-be-pax?n=3

It would be a shame if all those lovely photos you and others have posted over the years were gone for good- hopefully, they're 'only resting'.

Well, looking at your original photos there, I don't know. But it surely is lovely.

Thanks- it's a tough customer also. It doesn't get much attention, and blooms off and on throughout the year. I was almost convinced it was 'Pax', but there are enough differences that I think it's probably not a match. The leaves don't look quite right, and 'Pax' photos seem to show a lot of reddish leaves, stems, etc. This rose has lighter colored leaves, and I can't recall ever seeing reddish anything.

I'm planning to locate the photos and put them on Flickr- I'll post a link here for anyone who encounters this picture-less thread and wonders what the rose looks like.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/87333171@N08/sets/72157651118412371/

And here are photos of a young plant I grew from a cutting from the above plant- I actually have two of these plants, but I think only one of them has bloomed, and got photographed. Both plants have buds as of this writing.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/87333171@N08/sets/72157648067994192/

Virginia

I tried to upload a photo as a lure for the Flickr links above, but all I got was this lousy t-shirt:

Your post is 4494320 characters too long, posts can be up to 21600 characters. Please make it a little shorter and try again.

VMR, you can't post your photos from photobukcet/ Flickr anymore, though some clever members have found a way around.

Check this thread for more information.

The easier way is simply editing your above posts and uploading your photos directly from your computer. You can upload 10 photos per post. So you should be covered :-)

Nice rose by the way....

Yes, I knew I couldn't post from Flickr, and I didn't try. The error message was in response to my attempt to simply upload one photo as bait for the Flickr link. Maybe this thread has some sort of size limit in re photos, and it's been reached already? All of the previous photos that disappeared were direct GW uploads also (hence 1 photo per post), so who knows what goes on up in the Big Houzz?

Honestly, I understand that Houzz may want to have different criteria for photo and thread sizes, but it does seem that they could have figured out a way to 'grandfather in' the older, existing posts. I'm guessing that far more interesting, attractive and educational threads than mine may be missing their photos?

Virginia

Virginia, I checked some of my old posts and the photos (single upload + photobucket links) are still there.

You can either contact Houzz or just upload them from your computer. Good Luck,

Bob

I am so tired, tired, tired of this error message. My post had no photos at all. It contained some bolding and two links. Nothing elaborate. Sigh.

I can see all of Virginia's and actually everyone's pictures, so am not sure what the problem is for everyone else. Quite a mystery.

love_the_yard, you have a resizing feature for pictures on your computer, usually under Edit or View. For every picture go into that feature and find the size that is 800 x something, not sure what the second number is. Put in that number, okay it and save it. That will solve the problem. I know how frustrating that is, but once I did that there were no more problems.

Ingrid, I guess the photos have reappeared since March. I can see them now.

love_the_yard, that's odd that just some bolding and links prompted the error message. I have only gotten the error with uploading photos. It seems to be random, and it seems to affect some people and not others.

I haven't gotten the error code recently, but also haven't uploaded any photos lately.

Hope it straightens out soon for you,

Virginia

Virginia - My Pax rose is now setting hips, just to make a liar of me. The below pic isn't very good, and the hips are young, but they are the same spherical shape as the ones in your pics, and also green.

I have also attached a pic of the leaves I just took, which to my ignorant eye look just like the ones in the pic you posted above (so happy that all of the pics have returned from where ever they were!). Also, one of the buds in the pics you put on Flickr looks exactly like the one in the pic I posted above. A very unusual bud shape/color, with sort of wavy petals.

Re red leaves - the newest, baby new leaf growth on mine is red - it changes to green quite quickly. Did your mystery rose do that at all this Spring? I am hoping that someone with more knowledge than I have will chime in here. Pax is a hybrid musk, in case that makes any difference.

Jackie

Gosh, Jackie- first I thought it was, then I thought it wasn't, and now you've got that foliage photo to make me wonder about 'Pax' some more... I think this just shows the limitations of photography as a substitute for looking at a rose 'in person'.

And, yes, the new leaves did have a reddish tint in the spring that didn't last long. Some online photos seem to have reddish stems also, though I have wondered if cooler climes don't tend to produce more ruddy coloring of roses that look greener in warmer growing conditions. It's an impression that I've gotten from looking at a lot of rose photos, and certainly nothing more than an impression...

Food for thought...

Thanks,

Virginia

Jackie, if you're still following this thread, here is a photo I found of reddish new growth on the mature plant that doesn't belong to me; this photo dates to August of last year, so the red cast to new leaves isn't only in spring, although it may be more likely then:

That is about as red as I see anything on the plant itself. I did see some of this reddish new growth on the plants I rooted from cuttings this spring, but now the larger of my plants is putting out lots of leaves that are green from the start:

Something I meant to ask about is the reddish stamens. My flowers pretty much always have a bright red tinge to the stamens, but someone familiar with 'Pax' said they didn't think that was characteristic of the plant. In the first photo you posted, it does look a bit like the stamens are red, but I'm not sure if that's just the lighting in the photo, or if your flowers normally have red stamens.

Thanks,

Virginia

Jackie, I have two small plants, and they have red stamens on their flowers also. Here are some photos on Flickr of my young plants:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/87333171@N08/sets/72157648067994192

And here is a link to photos I've taken of the original plant- the source of the cuttings I rooted:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/87333171@N08/sets/72157651118412371

If you are at all interested, I can send you a comparison plant. Even if it isn't 'Pax', it's a very good rose... at least it is in my neck of the woods.

Plant coloring could be environment-sensitive, so I suppose it's possible that if I grew your 'Pax' here it would start putting out flowers with red stamens, and my plant would stop doing that in your garden. That's a question that's beyond my level of expertise.

Thanks so much for checking on the stamens and posting those photos.

Virginia

Ha! I just went out and took a bunch of pictures of my Pax blooms. I am a total ignoramus about plant parts. I tore apart some of the open blooms, and they DO have little red things in the middle. They do not look like the ones in your pictures, but they are red. Below is the best close-up I could get of them. All of the blooms have these - the red parts are sort of under other things, which is why I did not see them until I took pics. What do you think?

Also, I smelled many of the blooms, then I took one to my DH and made him smell it. We both agree - smells lightly of cloves. What fragrance do you smell on yours?

I wrote, "I am so tired, tired, tired of this error message. My post had no photos at all."

Ingrid wrote, "love_the_yard, you have a resizing feature for pictures on your computer, usually under Edit or View."

Hi Ingrid, thanks so much for trying to help me. I do know how to resize photos and always do. However, my post had no photos at all.

Jackie, my rose does have some fragrance, but I don't recall it having a spicy or clove scent. My nose is so unreliable, that I wouldn't want to say 'yea' or 'nay' to that.

Well, so you do have red stamens. They don't look exactly like mine, but I have to wonder how close is close enough when comparing rose photos? They are certainly very similar roses.

I do appreciate your willingness to put up photos of your lovely 'Pax'. I think I will need to see 'Pax' in person to- as Kim likes to say- fondle it, and look for resemblances.

Thanks again,

Virginia

Virginia - since you have plants of your rose, you could purchase a Pax and grow them next to each other - that would be fun! That way they would both be in exactly the same conditions. Also, of course, you could have fun comparing them. If your rose is not Pax, it certainly looks as if it is related. Pemberton introduced Pax in 1918 (end of WWII, similarly as to Peace being introduced in 1945) Congrats on getting it!

Jackie

Jackie, I probably will eventually find a 'Pax' somewhere to examine or purchase. It's scarce... RVR lists it, but haven't stocked it since I've been checking, and that leaves Greenmantle... I know their roses are supposed to be large and healthy, but that's a fairly expensive proposition for an East Coast-er. And for a rose that I might already have when there are many other roses they stock that I want? Hmmm.

At any rate, it is a great rose, very healthy and almost always blooming. It might be 'Pax', or a close relative, or not. I may never know, and that's fine; I gave it the old college try, so to speak.

Thanks again,

Virginia