Okay, I'm bumping this up in case someone sees it who might have some good thoughts on ID.

The only thing I will add is that the foliage of 'Konigin von Danemark' doesn't look like "your" mystery rose, although the flower does...

Good luck,

Virginia

Thanks everyone for the ideas so far!

Virginia, I'm pretty sure that there was no mossing. There were only one or two buds I think and the bush was sparsely foliated, but there could be many reasons for that. If there was suckering then it wasn't very notable, I can't really remember though.

You are right, I don't know whether it reblooms, I'd bet that it doesn't. I really can't find any Hybrid Perpetuals, Bourbons or Perpetual Damasks that look like this one and are known to be in Australia. I still suspect it's a Gallica, Alba, Damask or Centifolia.

The only rose I have that's even remotely similar in terms of the bush is Mme Hardy. She is super thorny too and the foliage is a little similar. It makes sense for this rose to be Quatre Saisons, but to me those blooms look lighter, flatter and more blowsy? My mystery bloom lasted a full five days in the vase, which I was very happy about!

I'm going out to the local rose nursery today so maybe someone there might have some ideas. Fingers crossed!

Brightstar, I might be completely wrong, but is there a chance it could be Fantin Latour?

Thanks Tuderte and Melissa for the suggestions! I have Fantin Latour and it's not very thorny at all (as Melissa mentioned), so I don't think that's it.

I'll have to go back, so I'll get some shots of the bush, the base of the plants, the buds and also the hips, if there are any.

I had a look around the rose nursery today and couldn't see anything similar. Just ended up making unnecessary purchases instead!

Reminds me of 'Petite Lisette'.

:-)

~Christopher

I thought Autumn Damask or Ispahan also. but they are darker. 'Belle Isis', 'Blush Hip', 'Felicite Parmentier', 'Lady Stuart' and 'Arcata Pink Globe' also come to mind when I compare pictures. Here's a beautiful photo spread of 'Arcata Pink Globe': http://hedgerowrose.com/rose-gardening/2014/11/14/a-most-treasured-rose/

Celeste also looks like a possibility, at least in the pictures on Loupert's roses website. Rosa damascena on his website appears similar.

Does anyone grow 'Madame Zöetmans'? The leaves (and flowers) look similar to me. Here are some nice photos from a Japanese blog:

http://rosedeco.exblog.jp/tags/Mme.Zoetmans/

I have been assuming the flowers are in the 3-4" diameter range, so please set me straight if I'm wrong. HMF says 'Mme Z' is an upright shrub, up to 4' tall...

Virginia

I have 'Mme. Zoetmans', that wonderful rose, and I don't remember it being this pink: it registers as a creamy near-white in my garden, and I think has a waxier petal texture. Also I don't recall it being thorny, but instead bristly-nubbly, like a Gallica. I think of it as being rather like a white Gallica (contradiction in terms, I'm aware).

'Belle Isis' has a myrrh scent, if that helps.

It didn't have a myrrh scent, as I know that scent well and really like it. And yes, the flower was quite large and substantial, I would definitely say 3-4in across.

I also thought Mme Zoetmans looked a bit paler, but I've never seen it, only photos. It looks beautiful!

Hmmm, it's quite a mystery!

It seems possible that 'Mme Z' changes colors a bit; some photos looked dead white, while others were definitely blush. This note at HMF caught my eye:

"Nigel Pratt at Tasman Bay Roses says this rose has double flowers of soft pink paling to blush white with a green button eye..."

The Japanese version also seems to be pink/ blush.

In the references, Graham Thomas refers to "the white 'Madame Hardy' (1832), and her rival 'Madame Zoutmans' without the green eye", which is odd given the HMF photos of 'Mme Z' showing a white rose with a green eye. I can't speak to that first-hand, but I would not be astonished if a pinker-than-usual-clone-or-sport of 'Mme Hardy' got confused in commerce with 'Mme Z' at some point; in the HMF photos they look very much alike. Heck- for all I know, 'Mme Z' was originally a pink sport of 'Mme H', since no ancestry is given for her? Even the fringed buds look similar.

Perhaps, though, they are easier to tell apart in a garden, as opposed to just looking at photos; Melissa, do you think they are similar-looking, or not so much?

Earliest references say 'Mme Z' is flesh colored or cream-tinted-fawn. Perhaps it's like 'SdlM' which seems to be relentlessly French white for those growers who want the pink version found in other gardens?

I'd love to know if the buds of the Rookwood rose are fringed...

Sorry for going on... regardless of whether this is the Rookwood rose (and if the thorns are all wrong, it must be something else), I tend to get caught up in trying to decipher rose references while comparing them to photos of existing roses.

Virginia

PS Has anyone else been struck by the date of Rookwood Necropolis opening in 1867, the traditional cut-off year between old and modern roses?

I'll raise my hand, and again mention 'Petite Lisette'.

:-)

~Christopher

Hi Christopher, for some reason I missed your previous post so I'm sorry about that! From my first glance at 'Petite Lisette' the blooms do look very similar don't they? Also the thorns as well. Is anyone else familiar with this rose? I think it's the closest so far, to my eye anyway!

Oh wait, David Austin's site says that this is 'a miniature-flowered Damask', with little flowers held in open sprays. The Rookwood rose definitely didn't have miniature flowers. HMF lists the average bloom diameter as 2", I think this bloom was nearly double that. Not sure if Petite Lisette is still a contender then?

Ah, I wasn't aware of the bloom size. In any case, I think looking at Centifolias would be a good start. The foliage and prickles just "click" in my head.

:-)

~Christopher

If I was more familiar with Centifolias then I would probably be able to say that it had a Damask scent or a Centifolia scent, as I feel that it's probably a strong and distinctive perfume. I think the only answer is for me to go back and try and get some more information!

Virginia - so interesting about that opening date for Rookwood! I'm very surprised that there are quite a few mystery roses there, I was expecting them to all be very well known ones. I haven't even started to look at the other old European-style one that was so prolific, other than to note that it does have a slight resemblance to the Gallica 'Anais Segalas', which is apparently very common in old cemeteries in New Zealand ... but anyway that's a whole different puzzle to solve!

BTW, brightstar, you didn't mention which "unnecessary purchases" you got at the nursery when you went to research this lovely rose (and maybe a few other Rookwood roses)? Did you get any new roses?

As for the OGR in question, did you ever try to contact the Friends of Rookwood: http://friendsofrookwoodinc.org.au/contact or anyone at the Aussie Heritage Rose Group: http://www.heritage.rose.org.au/home.html ? Someone may already have figured out an ID, and if not, the FOR group could presumably help you find out how to get permission to take a cutting or two, so you can watch how it grows in a garden setting, and maybe supply them with useful ID info (or even a replacement if the original plant should die or disappear).

Speaking of growing roses in a garden setting, I seem to recall reading that 'Chapeau de Napoleon' tends to lose its beautifully fringed buds if grown in poor soil; I wonder if any of the true Mosses become less mossy if not grown in rich soil? Anyone know?

Virginia

ETA: I meant to say that 'Chapeau de Napoleon' lost the fringing on the buds, not the buds themselves...

Ah yes, I did get two new roses, which was completely unnecessary as I've already put in a ridiculously large order for bare roots next season! I couldn't pass up an already very well-established potted climbing Devoniensis, which is one I've wanted for a while. The plant was a bargain (in my eyes!) as it's already pretty large, covered in buds and blooms and a few nice-looking new basal shoots coming through at the moment. The perfume is lovely, I'd never seen it before. But still, I have way too many climbers! Now I'm considering putting in a pergola just to grow this rose on ...

Also a nice big Blush Noisette to most probably replace the Zephirine Drouhin I have out the front. ZD is growing well for me but I just don't love the blooms, although maybe I'll give it a bit longer. I seem to struggle with the more blowsy style of blooms, not sure if it's the heat but they seem to hang like wet rags most of the time! Noella Nabonnand is the number one culprit here, I think she has to go ...

Anyway returning to the Rookwood rose, I did send an email to the Heritage rose group so hopefully I'll here back from them! Interesting about the mosses, I can't wait to go back again for a much closer inspection!

I'm glad to hear you got a deal on 'Devoniensis, Cl'. One of these days I'll break down and order the shrub version, but I say that about so many roses, and I only have so much room. But it is said to be fairly shade-tolerant, and that's a big plus for me. I am sad to hear that 'Noella N' does a good wet rag imitation; it's so beautiful in those photos that somehow fail to show that tendency....

I hope someone from the Heritage Roses group contacts you, and can give you some good info. It would be cool if it has already been propagated, and is available for sale somewhere (even if the ID is still uncertain).

Of course, you need to go back; if you can't find buds, you should at least be able to get photos of the thorns. And then, there are all those other roses. (Your fellow doesn't really mind, does he?)

Virginia

About 'Mme. Hardy' and 'Mme. Zoetmans', it's been several months since I saw them in bloom, but I don't think of them as similar, beyond both being white, double once-blooming old roses, a group for which I have a particular weakness. The plant styles are different. I don't have a good plant of MH, but it grows taller than MZ and doesn't sucker heavily, while MZ is lower and tends to form a suckering thicket, as best I can tell: my plants came grafted and haven't wholly liberated themselves from their rootstock. MH is thornier than MZ, and it gets Damask crud in the fall, which MZ does not. The flowers are also different. MH is whiter and smaller than MZ; "flesh colored or cream tinted fawn" sounds good for MZ, and as I recall its flowers are bigger than MH's, with larger petals with a waxier texture, and a particularly good fragrance. All this is from memory. It's difficult to capture the character of a rose in photos alone, and you don't see many whole plant shots, or shots of foliage, canes, buds, and hips, which help distinguish a variety.

Thanks, Melissa, for the detailed info. Yes, photos don't tell the whole story, and size differences of plants, flowers, foliage, etc. are quite difficult to gauge via photos. Fragrance, impossible.

Real-life accounts from an experienced and observant gardener are- as you just demonstrated- far preferable, if such can be had.

Thanks again,

Virginia

My pleasure, Virginia; I'm glad you found it helpful.

On the MH versus MZ issue: I can't weigh in on whether they are two distinct roses or not. But I do believe that in North America MH is sometimes sold as MZ. That could account for the confusion.

Ok I have an update on this rose but sadly not a lot of helpful new information. I made a flying visit to the cemetery and took a few more pictures. Unfortunately there were no buds or blooms to photograph, just one spent bloom where I was able to tell that there's definitely no moss around the sepals.

What I didn't notice last time is that the "bush" consists of fairly new-looking suckers. There is a long-dead taller plant right next to the head stone that may have been the original rose, but I'm not sure about that, the shape is a bit odd like a dead standard, but there was no graft. The grave is Jane Archibald, d. 1936, and John Birnie Archibald, d. 1918, so it's not super old.

Here are the suckers from above. I cleared away some of the weeds/grass to have a better look. You can see an older dead bit at the left hand side, near the piece of concrete, perhaps it was an older sucker from the original rose?

Some more leaves and thorns/prickles:

One of the suckers:

The spent bloom:

I was having another look a few days ago and did return to Jacques Cartier as a possibility. I also wondered about Duchesse of Rohan, particularly when I saw this old thread:

Is this Duchesse de Rohan?

I can't find anywhere that sells Duchesse de Rohan in Australia though, or any record of it being here, so it seems a bit unlikely. The Rookwood rose also seems more thorny. Jacques Cartier would make more sense and it does seem to be a reasonable match.

Can anyone comment on these two roses?

Of course I'll have to go back again and see if it repeat-flowers, perhaps in the Autumn I guess!

Okay, I'm gonna bump this up, since I missed it when it got updated, and perhaps others did too.

To me, the leaves don't look quite right for 'Marchesa Boccella' AKA 'Jacques Cartier', but I'm just going by the photos that show a pointier, deeper green (and larger?) leaf than your rose has. Even if "your" rose is a bit chlorotic, it still looks like the normal leaf color is a mid-to-light green. The leaves are somewhat rounded, and don't look very large. They are serrated, but not strongly so.

I do think those leaves should be the key since they are fairly distinctive, and there are quite a few roses with similar blooms. The prickles (and the strong fragrance you reported) do make me think there's Damask or maybe Centifolia ancestry there, but I can't place those leaves. I want to say the leaves have a Gallica or maybe Hybrid China look to them, but the prickles don't. The Centifolias I've seen photos of seem to have pointier and toothier leaves of a deeper green, but probably I missed a few that might look more like your rose...

I'm hoping someone who grows some OGR's can chime in to say which roses they grow that have similar leaves, even if the flowers are quite different; that might give you a few hints as to ancestry.

Good luck,

Virginia

Another update and at last some helpful information!

This is a reblooming rose! Yay!

Went to Rookwood yesterday and found two caterpillar-eaten buds and an open flower (smaller than the last but still a decent size). Unfortunately the rose is very unhappy-looking now with only one cane left and lots of dieback, so I took the open flower to hopefully grow a cutting here if it dies.

So this must be a Portland/Perpetual Damask? Is that correct? It definitely has the 'high shouldered look' and strong old rose perfume.

I went to the rose nursery today and luckily they had a little Jacques Cartier in flower, it was a very good match - 95%. The Rookwood rose's leaves seem slightly lighter and greener (less of a blue-green) but the morphology looks very similar. The Rookwood bloom seems a touch paler, especially on the edges and was much larger, but so many factors could affect those things. Similar type of fragrance and prickles, similar vulnerability to blackspot.

Any other suggestions apart from Jacques Cartier? I bought a JC to see how is goes and compare the two! Also I have never grown a Portland from a cutting, any tips?

Thanks :)

Jacques Cartier has rather distinctive buds that look like something bit the ends off. I don't know of any other rose that looks quite like that, though something like Charles de Mills has buds that also have a flat end when they first start to open.

Perhaps the buds weren't caterpillar-eaten after all, but it is just the oddball buds of 'Jacques Cartier'? Photos?

I do hope you can root what you've got, so you can see how much a rose grown in a garden with some care will (or won't) differ from a rose left to grow pretty much untended in a cemetery. And you have an actual 'JC' rose for comparison, so that's great.

Comparing plants side by side is far more useful than comparing photos of roses, especially when the photos in question were taken in rather different climates, etc.

Looking at early descriptions of 'Jacques Cartier' and 'Marquise Boccella', I'm not convinced they are the same. Similar enough to be confused in commerce early on, perhaps? If you can grow the two side by side, and they remain similar-but-not-quite-the-same, that might be because one is 'JC' and the other is 'MB'. Just speculating wildly... it's a favorite pasttime!

Virginia

It seems L'Haÿ (Val de Marne) have numerous Jacques Cartier's.

I hope thelink works.

They have also a Marquise Boccella

Hi, Brightstar. Wonderful rose! What a magical discovery. A phrase you can throw around is "high shouldered rose." Yours has leaves just below the flower like many of the Portland damasks. 'Jacques Cartier'/'Marchessa Boccella'/'Marquise Boccella' is known for this feature. Your rose doesn't look exactly like any 'Jacques', etc. that I've grown, but it looks close, and 'Jacques' does seem to vary, perhaps to due to more than one rose being labeled as 'Jacques', etc. 'Jacques' has a BIG bloom like yours, and mine have been both very fragrant and remontant. Another thought: the dead stalk of the plant next to the headstone doesn't look like your rose to my eye (is it a rose?). Your plant might be unrelated, and you might have spotted a shiny new variety of (damask-ish) rose that took root after a passing bird deposited the seed! That happens. :-) Carol

Thanks for the comments everyone! Virginia, I'm pretty sure they were caterpillar-eaten buds (big budworm holes everywhere) but I would have looked more closely if I'd known the buds were a distinctive feature - oh well! From memory they were pointed though, with simple smooth sepals.

I've potted up the cutting so fingers crossed, I really hope it takes. It's very hot and humid here so not exactly ideal weather. Also I noticed a few new buds coming on my newly-purchased JC so I'll be able to look at their shape when they get bigger.

Carol, I agree that the dead stick near the grave headstone doesn't really look like a rose. There are still some old-looking (dead) parts further back though and it does look deliberately planted on the grave I think. This rose really caught my eye because I've seen nothing similar at Rookwood - lots of Teas, early HTs, Chinas, rootstock etc, but the only even slightly similar one is the mysterious large, arching, 99% thornless rose that I can't believe I can't ID! There are at least 10-15 of those growing over a large area, it has the old rose perfume and beautiful soft-petalled blooms too. Definitely a once-bloomer though.

Can't resist putting some photos just in case it jogs anyone's memory :)

Thanks again :)

Could it be the old HP Enfant de France? Carol

Brightstar, the leaves have a look about them that reminds me of hydrangea leaves. Which always makes me think of "Fantin-Latour". "F-L" is supposedly not very prickly, but I think if it were nearly thornless, that would get more mention. Especially since it's usually classed with the prickly Centifolias... Of course some roses only have thorns on newer growth, so it's possible that the Rookwood plant was thornier in its youth. (Weren't we all?)

Do you happen to recall how large the flower was? Did you happen to notice if the leaves were fairly smooth, or somewhat fuzzy, or rough, or...???

Carol, 'Enfant de France' seems to have more than one rose cosied up under one umbrella name, but some of the HMF photos do look similar. I saw it described online as "compact and upright", but do you think that an old plant in a warm climate could have a tall, arching habit?

Thanks,

Virginia

Virginia, I popped over to France (don't you love the global internet?) to see what Fabien Ducher has to say about Enfant. According to that website, Enfant grows to around 5' or so. Of course, I've noticed that nurseries frequently assume that pruning will occur when they mention full size, and I could see Enfant reaching beyond 5' if unpruned. My Tuscany Superb hit over 6' when I neglected to prune it a couple of years in a row! I've grown a couple of Enfants over the years, and they were inclined to arch when left to their own devices. If I anchored the canes, they broke into bloom all along. Quite pretty if a little untidy in my garden. Carol

Yes, I wondered what it might do in a warm, humid climate if left untended...

Now I'm wondering if 'Enfant de France' could be related to "Fantin-Latour"? The flowers seem somewhat similar, but I really can't seem to find a good foliage photo of 'Enfant'. Since you've grown plants of it, do you recall if it had those large, smooth, hydrangea-like leaflets?

It's too bad when we 'pop over to France' via Internet that we can't come back with fresh, buttery croissants and café au lait... Oh, well.

Virginia

Just got in on this discussion...Anyone consider Sidonie? If we are talking damask perpetual...I found this photo from Petals and Buds, an Australian nursery on HMF. Maybe they could help with ID?

Sidonie in Australia on hmf

Just to muddy the waters, I looked up Sydonie/Sidonie and Spencer (remember that one?) along with Enfant de France on Help Me Find. In my mind, all of these fall into that light to mid pink, fluffy petaled, fully double, high-shouldred HP/damask perpetual category in a practical sense. I could pretty much swap them around, along with Jacques, for the same purpose. They all resemble this cemetery rose to my eye. What's weird is Vintage Gardens doesn't list Enfant! I'm compelled to double check (again) because Vintage lists every rose I've ever heard of plus a thousand more! Vintage says Spenser is synonymous with Baron Adolphe de Rothschild. Although these are all remontant roses, I've found that HPs in my garden frequently require a bit of maturity before they repeat. I've also learned that left unpruned, they will grow into fairly tall specimen shrubs which arch due to the weight of the flowers. Some HPs can really produce monster blooms! What a fun thread, Brightstar! I hope you have a Dr. Watson by your side to record your detecting. :-) Carol

Thanks everyone for the new ideas.

Before I forget, my JC had an open bloom yesterday, I must say that it is much less impressive :) I know it's been very hot and it's a younger plant though. The petals seem thinner, not as "fluffy"!

Susan, some of those pictures of Sidonie really look similar, then some look like a much stronger pink and I thought I could see some long straight thorns. Not sure though.

Virginia, neither rose had foliage similar to Fantin Latour, which I grow. To my eye FL has very smooth, flat leaves, like you said, and both these roses have leaves with a rougher surface and folded upwards from the central vein, if that makes any sense.

Carol, it's definitely fun but I'm starting to think it might take a long time for me to figure it out - unless I put some more effort into scientifically identifying some of the features! I just keep looking at my cutting everyday and really really hoping! It's so hot here, not ideal!

I just want to write one more note, swinging back around to Christopher's suggestion. You might well have a centifolia of some sort. Centifolias do arch, they are prickly and they generally resemble your cemetery rose. The big blooms sent me off into HP land, but some rose identities like big-blossomed Paul Ricault bounce around from HP to centifolia depending on site and source. The Paul blooms I've seen are deeper pink among other differences (I don't believe your rose is Paul), but I've never been to Australia to witness the effects of climate on bloom color. If your rose cutting roots and grows or you get more photographic or other info, please post an update. Your rose is a delightful find! I wish I could spot something that lovely on my cemetery tours. Carol

Hi again, another update on this rose. I went out to Rookwood last weekend and this is what I saw:

Just in case it's not obvious, this is where the rose used to be, before some idiot went nuts with a whipper snipper :(

The roots would still be there but there is nothing left above ground. My partner thinks it probably happens every year, which might explain the small size and structure of the rose. Either way, I was a bit upset!

My cutting is still green, no rot so that's good, but only one leaf left. I really hope it gets going! My JC still hasn't produced any blooms that even come close to the Rookwood rose in terms of bloom size and substance, but it's still early days!

Another sad case of "cleaning up" a cemetery.

Brightstar, how is your cutting doing? Any leaf buds or other hopeful signs? I guess it's cooler weather there now, so it may not be inclined to do much for you at this time of year, but hopefully, it will work on developing a root system even if not much shows above the surface.

I know your winters are fairly mild, but the days are shorter & I suppose it's cooler also...

Just curious,

Virginia

brightstar, do you know the date on the headstones at all please. Also have you had any luck with the friends of Rookwood at all ?

David, further up the thread, brighstar gave the dates: "The grave is Jane Archibald, d. 1936, and John Birnie Archibald, d. 1918".

Hope this helps,

Virginia

Dear Brightstar, a couple of thoughts about the Damask Perpetual mystery rose. Before they went out of business, Vintage Gardens was offering two pale pink roses in the Damask Perpetual category, Bernard and Celina Dubos. I have not grown or seen either, but you might be able to send a picture to Friends of Vintage Gardens for comparison with their collection. Bernard is a sport of Rose du Roi, as I recall, and might have a smaller flower than your mystery.

Also, Jacques and the Marchessa were two distinct roses whose identity became confused, so it could be that you have found the missing one of the pair. I think the color is too pale to be the Jacques/Marchessa I have grown, but mine was in part shade in CA, so maybe the color fades more than I realized.

Hi Virginia, I must have missed that, I was thinking if we knew the year(which we/I do) we might be able to narrow the field a bit. There are a coup[le of people here in Australia which might be able to help. I will not be able to contact them for two weeks as I am going on holidys, I will look back at this thread on my return and go from there.

David, enjoy your hols! I'm sure we'd all be interested in further info and/or speculation... especially from knowledgeable Aussies.

Virginia

Another sad update, my cutting didn't make it :( We had a day where some rain blew under the verandah where they were and the soil must have gotten a touch too damp, because it started to go brown a few days later. All the other cuttings I had in the same spot were fine and are all leafing up nicely, such a shame!

I'm actually about to move to NZ (long story...) and while I'm devastated to leave the roses here (especially my Teas), I'm sure there will be lots of rosy opportunities in NZ! I'm going to create another thread asking for recommendations for a slightly colder zone, as I have never had to deal with frost before!

I can only hope that this Rookwood rose recovers from its brutal pruning and shoots again next year, perhaps I'll get some holiday time to come back and check on it!

Just a curious thing I noticed last time I was at Rookwood - in the area around that particular grave, a lot of the graves have old Pomegranate trees planted on them, I suppose it's related to Greek mythology? I was wondering if that's what the dead stick right near the headstones was. I suppose I'll never know!

Please keep in contact brightstar, I have some contacts in NZ.