Such wise words, Sherry. Your comments caused me to go through my (long) list of discarded roses again to see how many roses I had discarded because of the factors you mention. Fortunately there were only a few. In my ignorance I had planted a number of noisettes in conditions that were brutally hot. I transplanted only one since I had no room for the others and that one is also gone since it was a mildew magnet and was also planted too close to a pepper tree. Jean Bach Sisley and Mme. Charles I should have kept but both were in difficult locations and I had no better places to put them. All in all, what I regret most is not replanting rather than discarding my two bushes of Janet. Out of over 80 discarded roses that's not too bad. Fortunately my tea roses were a bit more forthcoming in growth and didn't have quite the growing pains you describe. I'm glad you had the patience and wisdom to hang in there with most of yours and have now reaped the benefit of seeing them come to beautiful maturity. There's something so magnificent about a big, mature tea rose in all its glory, covered with hundreds of blooms. There's a genuine pride in having seen them grow to this stage and witnessing the younger, less spectacular years that led to this.

Ingrid

I think this is even more noticeable for thiose of you who grow roses on their own roots. In Europe grafted roses are the norm so it has been an education for me, growing roses from cuttings, how long they take. Sometimes, they spend their cutting year and another 2 whole years getting potted on before even going in the ground, and then there is still another couple of years before any sort of maturity can be seen. So, all-in-all, it means a wait of around 4 years whereas a bare root rose can be planted in autumn and blooming in its first summer (although this is ignoring the fact that the understock has been doing the growing in someone else's field before it gets a sight of a bud. After gardening for a few years, there is always something new coming on - if we just had to twiddle our thumbs for the 5 years to grow a paeony or a lily from a seed, none of us would bother. The trick is to keep a cycle going and before you are even aware, a few years have rolled by and the little seedling is now a stonking great bush. Curiously, my problem is the opposite of yours, Sherry, as I tend to forget just how much and how big a plant is going to get and have a terrible tendency to overcrowd and stuff. Already, this summer, I have had to brutally dig great swathes of helenium, phlox, hemerocallis to allow the swollen roses some breathing space. Worse, digging in enclosed spaces usually means a piecemeal removal of large perennials which are then no good for anything other than compost (because obviously, I am doing this now instead of spring or autumn when everything (heat, light, effort, size)was on my side except for any sense of long-range vision which always deserts me in the blank winter season of bare earth and walking space.

True, Ingrid. Your mention of big teas made me think of my Mme Lombard. She's only a year and a half and reminds me of the picture of an ugly Christmas tree caricature. I couldn't possibly photograph her. She must be 8' across (in some directions). Two or 3 canes are going straight out very low and have branched off at the ends adding to the length plus a couple of canes about 4-1/2' tall with candalabras. It has very few leaves proportionately since they're scattered so far apart and almost no laterals yet. No one would ever think it was a rose bush. It looks like some sort of giant mutation. Someone needs to post a photo of a full grown beauty. I will laminate it and put it on a marker for encouragement and a reminder of what is coming - someday.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Sherry -- Our climate is different, but our experiences are identical.

We've got a lot of ground down on that hillside, so we've been able to plant things and give them time -- and time HAS been a requirement for many, if not most.

We have plants down there, now, way taller than me and bigger than some automobiles, that were, once, twigs in a bag. So I know it works, and I don't mind giving the roses the time they need.

Meanwhile, out in the "equipment yard" we have young plants just coming on, and almost ready for places in the ground. The fun begins all over again.

Jeri

Campanula, you shared so much that I didn't know but makes perfect sense. With rooted cuttings of own-root roses we really are in a similar situation as those peony and lily seedlings. I didn't know that. Seems kind of silly now to give up on one after only a couple of years - except for some extreme situation. Believe it or not, it even took a long time for me to realize you could move a rose to a hopefully better spot rather than just yanking it. And it's an attractive thought to be able to plant a rose that has 3 years of growing already under its belt. I really appreciate this perspective. It helps. As to overplanting, I do that, too, particularly with Clotilde Soupert. She's such a small thing after spring pruning and then all of sudden she puffs up like the Pilsbury dough boy, and I go, Uh-oh.

Jeri, I had an idea that you would know exactly what I was talking about. Someone who has been growing roses as long as you have would have to have seen everything! There's no easy way to get experienced except the passage of time and paying attention, but I wanted to pass this tidbit along to those newer than me who may have been on the verge of yanking roses as I was yesterday. I needed to put on the breaks until I'm more sure there's no hope. I have roses coming, and I won't be in a hurry to find a spot. I'll grow them on so that if and when I have a sudden vacancy I'll have one to plop into the spot. Getting wiser is pretty nice.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

I'd always wait at least five years, and more like seven, not only for Teas, but also for Damask Perpetuals and HPs and select others. One "select other" which prompts my mentioning this is the Wichuraiana hybrid 'Casimir Moulle'. In its first four years, it had exactly three blossoms . . . which were all deformed and miscolored. In its fifth year, it bloomed all over the place (it's vigorous, healthy, and has beautiful foliage too). A now-beloved 'Pergolese' took at least five or six years to come into its own (the secret: don't prune it). A foundling rose-red Tea which I got from HRG many many years ago languished for several years in sandy soil, when I thought it was some dwarfish rose-red China; I moved it to clayey soil, and it took off and became the wonderful seven-foot-high "red" Tea it is . . . whatever its identity might be. I'm finding that some Multiflora hybrids (such as 'Violette', 'Rose-Marie Viaud') seem to grow out of their chronic chlorosis, given enough years. So sometimes it's time, sometimes it's also location and culture...but giving a plant time allows it the opportunity to give you hints about where it should be and the culture it should have. The only roses I'm fairly quick to remove are those which grow too large for the available space!

This is a terrific post. Thanks so much Sherry for your wisdom.

I bought a DdB this year and have been thinking: spindly, few leaves, canes look a weird tanish green color. Wondering if she is healthy. I had read here that teas took a few years to mature so I knew not to get too antsy. Still, I'm glad to read you post and take heart. She is in a large pot, so if after 3 years she looks puny, I'll take a cutting and plant her in my clay dirt.

Great post! I'm lucky because I have 1.5 acres and my goal is to have a sample garden that I can share with the gardening community. I have a no-spray garden with roses of every class and as long as they thrive, I don't care what they look like. My babies and adolescents can be as awkward as they want. Except for Mutabilis, I had never grown Chinas before I moved here, so I was a bit surprised at their twigginess, but I just let them do their thing. My only concession to looks is that I now put Rugosas on the front drive because they don't defoliate with BS and are in flower most of the time.

Very good words Sherry. My garden is 16 years old now. I've watched many roses grow. For me sometimes it's hard to know when to give up on a rose. Own root deffinately makes a difference. There are some roses that just don't grow well own root. I've come to realize that Teas, Noisettes, and Hybrid Musks take some time in this garden.
Patience can really pay off. I remember my Le Pactole. I bought it in a 4 inch pot. it must have been three inches tall. Now it is a blooming monster.

Oh, 'Le Pactole' is a good example.

It not only took several years to mature, it also mildewed nastily in the process. Now it is as you say, "a blooming monster", and it's clean as can be.

That one tried my patience, and I'm glad I had the vision of the mature plant in the Sacramento City Cemetery to sustain me.

Jeri

oh yes, Jeri, right on the button there - it is well nigh impossible to guess the outcome from a mingy little catalogue picture - only a wise mentor and a chance to see a mature rose growing in conditions similar to yours, can really bring home what a fully grown plant can look like. It helps if you have cultivated a habit of growing outrageous annuals from seed - no-one could imagine the amount of growth a single cobaens scandens or morning glory can manage in a few short months unless you have watched the daily, almost visble growth. Woody plants take so much longer....but can grow so much bigger, it just does not seem feasible that the tiny little twiglet can, like a magic bean, be transformed into a 20metre eater of houses.
Our local botanic garden was famous for roses, back before WW2 but has become moribund since those heady days of Dr.Hurst and Graham Thomas. Even so, a full grown Nevada still looks like a galleon in full sail - big enough for my itchy finger to hesitate over the 'add to basket' button (and get a mannerly Matchball instead).
Oh Sherry, it is a priviledge to step back to watch the 'evolution of a gardener' in all its messy glory. Keep up the posting.

Sherry & all - what a great post! Patience IS a virtue! I am very lazy and not very into hovering over plants, etc., so I have never actually shovel pruned an OGR I didn't think was doing well - I just ignore them. That has turned out in many cases to be just the ticket! It took me a few years to figure that out, of course.

Once I rooted a Belle Portugaise from an old plant up the street. I planted it and it grew, and grew, and grew.....by the end of the fourth year I had NEVER seen even a bud on it, let alone a flower, and by this time it was about 16 feet tall. I had never heard of any rose that did not bloom at all through 4 consecutive Springs! I posted an SOS on here, and several people said things to the effect that "BP is a hybrid gigantica, and they like to get big before they bloom - feed it, and keep waiting - it is not sick or a dud". Low and behold, by the very next Spring it covered itself with the most amazing, elegant transluscent blooms, and has every Spring since, with even a few in between seasons. That is when I realized that old roses are NOT like modern roses - they are marvelous landscape plants that are like trees - long term investments in the future!

Jackie

Odinthor, Casimir Moulle is magnificent. I wish, I wish, I wish...

Jerome, I like giving all the Wise Ones on this Forum a platform to share!!

Grandmother's Rose, I knew you were out there thinking those thoughts.

Catsrose, your 1.5 acres sounds wonderful. What a luxury! I love your Rugosas along the driveway. They must be gorgeous. Any photos?

Pam, I hope someday my garden will be 16 years old. I've given up on a handful of Teas. Do they ever outgrow veggie centers? The one that I was really wrong about was Marie d'Orleans, a totally dumb decision considering she was only a year old. My excuse was that she had no leaves and was growing oddly. Poor thing was less than 2' tall. Probably my worst garden decision.

Jeri, I wish I had room for that rose.

Campanula, "evolution of a gardener". It's so true. Four years ago I thought I'd never get this far. I just keep keepin' on.

Oh, Jackie, that's good information. I have R. Fortuniana (4 years) and Francois Juranville (3 years). They've been so underwhelming. I had the mistaken idea that after the first season they'd have old wood to bloom on and would get going. Wrong! So I'll feed and wait. Thanks.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Sherry - I think your words are appropriate for growers of modern roses as well. And please excuse my response here on the Antique Forum from someone who doesn't have any Antiques (do DA's or Romantica's count?) - but I like lurking here as often the posts are depthier.

My oldest roses are 3 years (perhaps 5 as a few of the first roses I purchased were already 2). My gardening experience is still so young - but even this soon, each year, I see each rose iterate into new renditions of themselves. Most get stronger and more beautiful over time. For the few that are tending in the other direction, I try to pamper them more, and determine what they are missing.

There have been a handful that I have thought about removing, but I have yet to do that to one rose (but don't ask me about the Gardenias - yanked my 2nd one today, ugh...) I'm still watching a few, and keeping a mental possible removal list, but my gut tells me to watch them and see how they do over time. Medallion, Europeana and Grand Masterpiece are watched with a skeptical eye, but all three this year have given me periods of time of complete surprise (and joy). So, I've been happy I haven't removed them. Then Proud Land has been moved, and still looks lousy, but this year I've had 2 blooms that have been stunning. So I'm glad I moved "less than Proud" Land to a background place where her overall homeliness isn't noticeable.

I'm noticing the DA's are slower growing than my HT's and Floribundas. I really watch daily with a quiet excitement, as they change and mature before me. Young Lycidas whose first canes dragged the ground, has canes that are now trying to poke up into the air. Mary Rose who spent her first year napping exploded this year.

There are roses like Purple Tiger and Barbara Streisand that are new this year, both with pretty poor reputations. PT has been doing really well for me, very small blooms, but with color combinations nothing short of brilliant. Roses like this embody hope for me, one of the most marvelous sensations of gardening.

Bolero is in her 2nd year. Her few blooms in her first year were stunning, in her diminutive year end size of about 1' x 1'. She stayed quite humble this year until a few weeks ago, and now she has gone crazy in our first heat wave of the year - cane's leaping into the air, covered in the most magnificant blooms. I completely get the growing child analogy, as I look upon my rose children with such pride and glee. And those that are troubled bring parallel emotions to that experience as well - as I feel saddened, and exert extra effort to mend.

I notice same with many of the companion plants in the garden. The Dahlias, Mums, Lilies and many more, get stronger and more beautiful over time. I yanked the 2 gardenias because it was clear they were dying and all my attempts to remedy their issues were failures.

I can't help it - I see what I plant, as lives to be cherished. They are gifts of nature, and I feel unfit to be judge of their fate if their only issue is that they do not aesthetically please me.

What a great thing to say about this forum, Harmonyp. You're a good gardener to have the perspective that you have toward your plants, and how neat that you brought modern roses into the discussion. Gardeners of all kinds need the gift of patience. Just out of curiosity, are your HTs grafted or own-root?

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Sherry -- Don't worry about your Fortuniana.

Our R. banksia lutea was a gift from an older lady. She'd had it most of her life, was selling her home and moving in with a daughter, and she wanted to take it along. She chopped it down and dug it out, and gave us a chunk of the stump. Maybe 2.5 ft. tall, roots chopped short, and the ugliest thing you ever saw.

We planted it, and for at least three years, it just sat there -- this ugly stump.

The fourth year, it just EXPLODED in growth and bloom, and it's never stopped. I think they just need substantial "feet" under them, before they do much.

Jeri

To make it even harder, I have teas like Bon Silene who grew over my head in a matter of months, Mrs. Dudley Cross and Mrs. B.R. Cant that reached 4 feet and twice as wide in a short period of time and blooming like crazy the whole time. Then you have other little pipsqueaks that just sit and look at you for years before they make a move and you wonder what you're doing wrong. I always want to start futzing with my soil when they sit like that because as you probably know, most of us in Florida have terrible soil (read sand with no nutrients).

Just a footnote: I mentioned 'Casimir Moulle' earlier. From the pix at HMF, you can't really tell how large the blossoms are (they're about the size of a nickel), or the effect of the whole plant. Here (link accompanies; when there, scroll down just a little for the plant) is a splendid picture of how a plant of 'Casimir Moulle' looks in bloom. Notice how the silvery reverse makes the blossom a bit magical! I should add that the foliage is so attractive, and the growth so vigorous and healthy, that it is worthwhile even without blooming.

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Casimir Moulle'

Oh, odinthor, you suckered me into THAT one - a nickel, huh? But I believe you when you say it's worthwhile even without blooming. You made me laugh. In fact, I'm still laughing. :))

Floridarosez, futzing. That's a technical term in Florida gardening circles, right? Yeah, me, too. I keep thinking about adding cat litter after the fact, or am I torturing the roses by not putting down pine bark mulch for two seasons, or are the roots down into the bad stuff. If we had good soil, it would be easier to be patient instead of worrying that something's wrong. And you're exactly right. All teas are not the same.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Yours is a great description of how Tea roses grow, Sherry, and a lovely post. I currently have a young nameless Tea rose that I got as a cutting from a lady in Genoa. It's about three years old, rapidly putting on growth, but is covered in mildew. I, having profited from my reading on this forum, have been waiting for it to get some more years and a better developed root system and see whether it shakes off the fungal disease (I think it will). It looks like it's going to be a big rose.
Suzy made a point, I think: about how important it is to go off and do other things while a plant is growing. A lot of times I plant roses and then largely forget them for a few years while I admire more developed or faster growing plants. Of course this is easier with a large garden.
Jackie said it perfectly, that roses are long term investments like trees.

Thanks for the photo of Casimir Moulle. That's one I'm waiting patiently for.