norway spruce slow death-advice please

10 years ago

hello:

in the fall of 2011 i planted a good quality 5'-6' b&b Norway spruce purchased from a reputable nursery. the soil was not the best as it was at the edge of a newly constructed road, so i amended it as best i could with fresh top soil, peat moss etc.

in the spring of 2012 it was slow in blooming but eventually did, by the end of last summer the bottom quarter was starting to turn brown and die. it survived the winter but now the dry/dead area has expanded to the bottom half, however the rest of the tree is starting to bloom.

all the basics are accounted for, watering,mulch, fall fertilization etc.

please see the picture, any ideas? why such a seemingly long and drawn out death?

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Comments (7)

ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
10 years ago
ball and burlap or potted ...???

if BB ... there is no way to tell if the root mass was slaughtered at digging ...

we would have never recommended amending the soil .. nor fertilizing a stressed tree ...

but my best bet.. would be.. lack of deep moisture.. thru the whole root mass ....

how did you water these things ... what was your protocol???/ ...

i cant focus on the buds ... so i dont know how to predict its future ... but let me suggest.. that when this thing is 30 feet tall.. like the one in my backyard ... that little damage on the bottom is not going to matter .. one whit ...

i dont understand the curb in the pic.. but when it is 30 feet tall ... it will be 15 to 20 feet wide.. by which time.. you will have to have trimmed it up ... so what difference will it make ...

i would wait to see how it buds out.. remove any dead material... insure proper watering.. deep thru the root zone ....

and i would check to make sure its not telephone poled.. i dont see the root flare ...

good luck

ken

ps: what does your nursery man say?????
gw409
Original Author
10 years ago
the tree was BB not potted and the root ball was large, as far as i could tell it did not look damaged but who knows?
the tree is not "telephone poled" as i try to be vigilant about that in my new plantings. the area is mulched so the crown of the root ball is not clearly visible, however the one irregularity concerning the root ball was one large "veined" root which is visible at the bottom center of the picture, but i don't know if that would be a critical issue here ?

my method for watering is usually to scratch my finger into the soil and probe for moisture and water accordingly.
the area is kept mulched.

as you can see from the picture the tree is planted at the edge of a newly constructed road, in soil that consists of construction type back-fill of rocky /dusty soil, certainly not dark rich virgin soil, it is for that reason i tried to amend the soil as best as i could but to be honest i never felt comfortable with the soil quality given its close proximity to the edge of the road.

your theory on lack of deep watering interests me, could it be possible that although i feel moisture at the top of the soil the bottom could be on the dry side?

i always thought amending the soil for new plantings, at least with 25% peat moss was preferable? i also thought if a tree looks stressed that fertilizer would help? what biological mechanics are in play that cause that not to be helpful?

looks after cutting out the dead wood are not a concern for me, i can only wish the tree lives to reach 30'

thanks
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I'm very sorry to hear about this bad experience. With the lack of jobs and the economy, suddenly there's a lot of "landscapers" out there looking for work online. I've tried dealing with some of them and they may be well intentioned and ready to work but they really don't know the first thing about landscaping or even good cultural practices. The ones that do... they aint advertising online. Here's what you need to know so that this doesn't happen again. -->Know what to plant that's appropriate for the site. Doublecheck online or here for opinions before plants are selected. -->Know how to plant properly the first time and supervise. In the south, digging ends pretty much by the end of March. If it aint dug by then, hold off until the trees drop leaves and harden off in winter or in the case of evergreens, wait until the deciduous trees do this. Evergreens in general are harder to transplant. -->Do not plant during the summer, especially if you can't water daily until established. -->Even if someone has good feedback/reviews online, ask for references and go see actual projects that they have completed and go by and look at them and try to talk to the owner to verify. If you can't find any that appear to know how to plant a tree, or they are all super expensive, that's ok... just find someone who is receptive to your input and does not claim to be an expert that already knows how to do it. It sounds like the underlying issue here is that you took a cold climate tree and tried to grow it in the south. Then your gardener tried to monkey with it in the heat. Then dug it up again and replanted it. That's enough to kill even a well adapted plant let alone a norway spruce.
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Gomanson: Sorry, I think you are pushing it a little here. Norway spruce is intermediate in shade tolerance. That means that in moderate to light overhead shade the trees can survive and make slow growth. And you say that would be OK with you. If your woods were mostly ash, I would say, maybe OK, but the maple and basswood produce somewhat denser shade, probably too much for the NS to do any more than survive for a while. Also, because they are so small, I think the rabbits and deer may destroy them. Norway spruce is very deer resistant, but these trees are so small, and sticking up out of the snow in winter time, they will get small nibbles on them--probably enough to destroy them. The rabbits will treat them worse. If you want to give them any chance at all, they will need protection. The blue spruce should fare worse. They do not have the degree of shade tolerance that Norway spruce has and are less likely to survive for very long. If you really want to grow Norway spruce in your woods, you would have to thin out the trees some to give more overhead light. Then they would grow slowly, but would make good progress over time if given protection, and if periodically you thinned out the overhead trees to maintain adequate light. But I think the blue spruce are pretty much a lost cause in the woods. --Spruce
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i didnt see if it was ball and burlap ... must have been at 6 feet .... when a plant is dug .. and either BB or potted thereafter ... we cant really tell.. what the root system was after the big dig.. it is usually suggested.. that it was butchered ... and no matter what you do.. you wont win ... i doubt you will ever know .. until it dies.. and you dig it up.. and hose off all the soil ... whether it continues to death.. who knows .. i think you want a definitive answer.. and i doubt you are going to get one ... if you go for replacement.. go for no bigger than 3 feet.. if you had done that prior.. PERHAPS... it could have survived ... you went big.. for some level of instant gratification .. and you lost the roll of the dice. IMHO ... i hope it stops.. and recovers.. good luck ken ps: i asked you to dig a hole.. and i THINK you answered on observation ... did you confirm moisture thru the whole ball you planted???? pps: you said: but we had a very dry and mild winter so not sure if it has anything to do with it- seeing some of the newer norways are showing signs of the same problems- which led me to believe the sudden heat brought it on? if it dried significantly in winter.. the evergreen.. would not show the damage until the heat completely dessicated the green needles ... IMHO.. the damage was done months ago .. though the result did not show until the heat ... and there is nothing you can do now.. about it ...
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Spruceman only checks in with us here very occasionally, but yes, his Norway spruce experience and advice is unparalleled. One thing that jumped out in OPs old original post is the paucity of sunlight-only 3 hrs. per day-falling on his trees. Combine that with close competition from larger and more well-established pines nearby, and it seems there would be some struggle here. Neverthelss, these tree species are very compatible, both having roughly the same requirements as well as growth rates (fast). I'd look to carefully trim some branches if any are especially inhibiting the newer trees. I'd pay attention to water needs as the older, more established plants are going to hog it up. And please, do not buy "fertilizer spikes". They are a bad idea whose time has come.......and gone. +oM
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
10 years ago
well .. you seem to have done pretty good with most of the variables ..

take a hand trowel.. and dig down about 3 to 6 inchesd... near the edge of the root ball you planted.. and find out about moisture at depth.. its a lot better than guessing ...

and.. i dont understand why you want this monster right next to the new road ...

i have had some pines.. which this isnt ... lose every needle after a hard transplant.. and bad winter...

the future is in the buds.. and you will have to wait for it to bud out.. to really understand the totality of any damage ...

ken
gw409
Original Author
10 years ago
Except for the roughly 25% of the tree thats brown and dead and slowly expanding the rest of the tree is blooming. Thats what makes puzzeling?

P
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
10 years ago
if you dig the hole.. perhaps your puzzle will disappear ...

also.. we will never know about digging.. shipping .. transporting and nursery abuse ... etc

BTW .. planted before or after the driveway??? could be exhaust fumes on large machines also ...

defining why certain browning occurs.. as you suspect.. may never be answered ...

but properly watered things do not brown for no reason .. hence my suspicions ..

ken
famartin
10 years ago
Chemicals/etc leaching in from the newly constructed road?

Winter treatments on said road?

Those are my only guesses.
botann
10 years ago
B&B means it was field dug. Did you leave the burlap on the rootball?
I think it's adjusting from being dug and transplanted. It will recover and as Ken says, those branches at the bottom won't be missed when cut after everything is sorted out.
Mike

norway spruce slow death-advice please

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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

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norway spruce slow death-advice please

Comments (7)

ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

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