snowheather, the photos of your 'Halloween' rose are breathtaking! I am glad to hear that it does well for you on its own roots. Judging from my personal garden experience I believe planting roses in really good soil is key to make them thrive, especially the ones that are a little bit more finicky to grow. Christina Here is a link that might be useful: Organic Garden Dreams

Doesn't sound like "Pink Prosperity" to me, too much of a variation in color, even for a shaded rose. All the "Pink Prosperity" rosebushes I've seen bloomed in a hard shade of pink, which I'm not at all fond of. I grow "Prosperity" and the blooms are soft pure white. I suggest you write to the nursery and tell them what you've posted. If you're considering choosing another pink H.M., I'd like to suggest my favorite pink Hybrid Musk, for color is "Cornelia" the bloom color ranges from medium pink in the heart of the bloom to light pink on the edges. In the autumn the bloom color includes a sophisticated hue of copper-pink. I Love that rose. One of Pembertons' best, and to me he was the penultimate breeder of Hybrid Musks. Manners, pink and frothy, "Bubble Bath" is a also a great favorite of mine, for its' delicious wafting fragrance that carries on the air for several yards from the bush. The form of bush, itself has something wild and exotic in the appearance of its' dark foliage and long supple canes, when grown as a large spread out bush,(6'x6', here) instead of a climber. Luxrosa

I had read the comments from the Tea Bag ladies, but will go back to one of the first questions I asked about 'Francis Dubreuil', when this thread first began to drift from its original topic: Was the original 'Francis Dubreuil' a "true Tea", or was he a "Hybrid Tea"? Or was he that other thing, a "Tea hybrid"? The earliest descriptions of FD say his color was a dark red with pink or cerise or amaranth highlights. My assumption is that 'FD' was darker than other red Teas, but would not have looked terribly out of place hanging out with other reds such as 'Gen Gallieni', 'M. Tillier', 'Souv. de David d'Angers', 'Mlle Christine de Nouë', ''Corallina', 'Safrano a Fleurs Rouges', 'Princesse de Sagan', 'Bardou Job' and- of course- 'Souv de Therese Levet'. Here's a 1901 review from a German rose reviewer about Francis: "Francis Dubreuil (Dubreuil 1895) is not only one of the most excellent red Tea roses but also one of the best Tea roses of all. The flower is in fact only of medium size, and sometimes even small, but keeps extremely well. It lasts In bud form for a very long time, and is then at its most beautiful. The growth is vigorous and the crown is well branched. What I like most about this rose, is its capacity to produce solitary flowers on long, upright stems, I do not like roses in flower umbels (in clusters). Its floriferousness (flowering period) is very long, it lasts right up to the frosts." That mention of "solitary flowers on long, upright stems" makes me think we might find some HP ancestry in Francis' background, no? And it accords well with other early mentions of FD having "diffuse growth"... Here's an early discrepancy, though; the review above says 'FD' "lasts in bud form for a very long time, and is then at its most beautiful". Contrast that with an earlier British review- Francis "is described as full flower of a fine form, opening very readily, perhaps too much so"... So if Francis was dark red and had diffuse growth, he seems to be quacking like an early HT, and not a "pure Tea"? Was he classified as a Tea because of his fragrance? According to Guillot, 'FD' is descended from 'Souv de David d'Angers' (described as "deliciously fragrant" in 1864) who is in turn descended from 'Caroline', the Tea that may be synonymous with 'Bermuda Spice'. Some early reviews of 'FD' say he is fragrant, most say nothing, and at least one reviewer says "not fragrant". This assortment of varying opinions shouldn't be surprising, given humans' different capacities for smell, and given the way odors can vary according to temperature, time of day, etc. The scent of Tea roses seems to be especially elusive, and elicits a confusion of descriptions, so I'm inclined to believe that the original Francis probably had a Tea scent and was fragrant to some people and not to others. However, I think it's also possible that if there were an early confusion with at least one grower offering a different rose as 'Francis D', the differences in opinion about form and fragrance could stem from an early switcheroo. Just because there was a later mix-up with 'Barcelona' doesn't mean there wasn't also an earlier mix-up somewheres down the line. And if there were an earlier misidentification, this early imposter might be the rose that was later sent from Sangerhausen to Oz in 1981? Another question I have relates to size. The Tea rose grown by Mr Knight just outside of Sydney was a large rose bush. The roses grown in the U.S. and Oz as FD today both seem to be more compact and HT-like (although the Aussie plant that hails from Sangerhausen seems to have a earlier HT look than 'Barcelona' does?) I'm trying to get things straight in my own head, so if I'm off-course in my suppositions, please get me back on track. Virginia

Thanks for the complements folks - it's a fun area and pretty easy maintenance as compared to the HT/flori roses in other locations. Katyajini, the bushes in the front like GdA get at least some direct sun daily but not the baking hot sun I get on the south side of the house. This bed faces north so there are fairly limited times for direct sun. The filtered sun seems to be sufficient for the HMusk roses to keep up some regular blooming, though the climbing varieties out of the way on the left side of the photo would be happier in particular with more sun. As for if the root competition has restricted their growth, it's like asking if prematurity stunted the growth of my teenage twins - at 5'11" for my daughter and 6'2" for my son, they're already tall and robust enough that it's not an issue. DE and GdA are some of the bigger and more regularly blooming roses among the 1000 or so I have, so I can't tell if they would be yet bigger and more regularly blooming with more sun. Like you I needed to fill a part sun area with something in addition to hydrangeas and other shade perennials, so I picked these roses to suit that location. DE never gets even the supplemental water that the front of of this bed gets in dry weather and it hasn't stunted his growth either, so when I have a survivor rose like that I put it in a survivor location to take advantage of its strengths. Vap, your plan sounds fabulous, and I'm honored to be among the inspirations for what I'm sure will be a lovely wild hill. I have recently planted Applejack just off to the left of this photo on the fence, and Mrs. Anthony Waterer around the other side of the house in mostly shade. They seem to be nicely hardy and are still settling in their second year. I used to have EVS at the center front of that photo till GdA totally ate it for lunch over a couple of years. I also had Danae, Prosperity, and Marjorie Fair planted to the left side of the photo but they didn't survive my zone 5 winters in this spot. They'll probably survive fine for you in zone 6, but they might not cascade as much as in yet another zone warmer. I'm impressed that La Belle Sultane and Madame Plantier would be hardy for you as I haven't even tried those in my zone. The species roses sound like a terrific addition and I'll look forward to seeing your wild pictures of that area. No, MAC wouldn't in my wildest dreams be something I'd recommend as a freestanding rose. Working around MAC is like trying to change the bedsheets around a teenager who refuses to get up on the weekends and takes up all the available space and then some along the way, just rolling reluctantly out of the way with a lot of prodding (ask me how I know...and why they change their OWN sheets). I have MAC tucked up by the bay window against the south side of my house and she drapes herself over a series of peony support rings next to the house so she doesn't obliterate the entire rest of that fussy-pants rose bed. She's like a toddler that finds it irresistible to poke her arms and legs into everything her neighbors are doing, and it takes a whip and chair (or peony support and bungee cords) to keep her in her own extensive horizontal space, more or less. I can't imagine her standing upright without supports, so she's 3' high and 12'+ wide draped over all creation. Let's see - what other HMs and OGRs do I have in those beds? The other monster next to GdA is Heavenly Pink and it's a similar hardy repeat blooming survivor that's huge and low maintenance. Wilhelm I already mentioned, and the sport Will Scarlet looks to be equally good though still young. Other surviving HMs (in addition to some that died mentioned above) include: Cornelia and Felicia, but they're a pale imitation of what they can do in warmer zones and they just put out a few flowers here and there. Nur Mahal is around the corner in mostly shade but it's upright and trouble free and blooms off and on all season. Robin Hood (if that's his ID - came as a mystery RV rose) is another HUGE freestanding shrub in even more shaded conditions at the neighbors' but he only blooms much once for me. Here's Nur Mahal - the flowers are larger and a little more crimson than Wilhelm, but the bush isn't as tall: This is only a fraction of the size Robin Hood is now in mostly shade - he's now the size of a mid-size car (not a compact) if given the space to claim: I've tried multiple polys in this spot and Ave Maria is the only one that liked the dry conditions and part shade and cold winters. Eutin (poly) and Enfant de France (HP) do fine but don't bloom a ton around the east side corner in mostly shade. Several HPs seem to have settled in nicely and bloom mostly in spring - Comtesse d'Oxford, Duchesse d'Orleans, Francois Arago, Madame de Stael, Paul Verdier, Rembrandt, all have been reasonably hardy for a couple of years. Sydonie is the best of the bunch and so far the only one that repeats much to speak of once or twice. Other Portland, Bourbon or moss that do OK here include: Indigo, Mme Dore, Mme Platz, Marbree, Paul Ricault, Mme Dubost, and Soupert et Notting. Stanwell Perpetual is still trying to establish itself. The two biggest so far are Marbree and Paul Ricault, but again I don't get any repeat and many of the others are pruned to the ground. The Bishop climbs well and is coming into the fourth year where I should get some nice spring bloom though no repeat. For climbers, Applejack is a great bet, as is Frau Eva Schubert and Awakening - the latter is really coming into its own and will probably be my best climber on that shaded fence. Laguna is also good though it would prefer more sun, and Mme Bovary, Louise Odier, and Larry Daniels (sport of Grandmother's Hat) put out blooms off and on in the season. For YEARS Ghislaine de Feligonde didn't do much of anything but it finally had a reasonable flush this year. No repeat yet though. Here's a picture of those in a good year with even GdF showing itself for a change in the small white flowers right of center (the fence doesn't usually look this good): Shrubs also take this location well. Bonica is pretty happy, as is Caldwell Pink. Smiling Jean isn't available that I'm aware of but it is pretty constantly blooming bright coral all season. Lady Elsie May does the same and is more readily available. Here are photos of these, first Smiling Jean, then LEM: LEM A lot of the Austins or Kordes shrubs can take part sun, and I have in these spots or the East side zone 4 pocket: Heritage, Earth Angel, Teasing Georgia, Queen of Sweden, Hannah Gordon, Elmshorn, Soul Sister, La Perla, Lone Star, The Shepherdess, Red Riding Hood, Carding Mill, Lady of Shalott, Polar Express, Bliss Parfuma, and several of the Vigorosa Kordes roses. I'd happily recommend any of the Morden series, OSO Easy, Drift or Easy Elegance roses that are the bulk of the color punch in the north or east side beds that are cold and part sun at best. The Canadians also do well in part sun and you know I'm particularly excited about Felix LeClerc who's at the far right end of this bed. Canadian Shield is also impressing the socks off me in the east bed with a ton of true red flowers (not crimson), as is Cape Diamond with pretty much nonstop pink ones. A lot of the Bucks also seem happy enough in these circumstances, including Applejack that you mentioned as well as Folksinger, Freckles, Malaguena, Pearlie Mae, Prairie Sunrise, Prairie Harvest, and Rosenstadt Zweibrucken. A fervent honorable mention goes to Elizabeth of Goshen if you can find it, since it's a surprisingly hardy and robust reblooming LAVENDER shrub that can take shade (only Poseidon and Lavender Veranda are in its class for hardy lavender rebloomers).Hope this helps visualize this. No rose is probably as happy in shade as in full sun unless you have a really hot zone, but these do surprisingly well all things considered. Cynthia