I'll not try Cl. Mme. Caroline Testout right now then,... I'm a beginner, and I think having stiff canes and big thorns on something I'm trying to train over an arbor (or even a wall) would be hard for me. If I get her, I'll try the bush form and just let it be a bush. Melissa, thanks for more info about training Crepuscule! that sounds pretty good! considering that I'm using pinks and hot pinks... would Crepuscule match ok...? The pictures I see online vary a lot. Sometimes it looks light yellow, sometimes peachy. Or would Cl. Lady Hillingdon be better for #4? I've heard people describe that one as being kindof a glowy light yellow, so that could be really nice with the other colors. I suppose I'm leaning away from using a pink climber in the #4 position since I'll have a pink climber on the front porch and a pink sakura tree (though that only blooms spring). I love sages and such, and I'm definitely going to use some sages and lavendars in the front with cl Eden (and I'm guessing I'll use Duchess de Brabrant under Eden) If I have room, maybe I can use some in the back, too? Right now I'm a little unclear on how much space there is. It's hard for me to imagine the size of the final roses and whether they'll tolerate some purple and/or yellow flowers growing with them...! a lot of people have had purple clematis growing along with their roses, but I think in this sunny spot that probably wouldnt' work. I'm lucky in that my neighbors have not done -anything- to their yard yet. There's nothing there but dirt. So I guess I can hope that they won't put a tree there? (or send them a plate of cookies with a request? haa...) As of yet, I don't have any neighbors on the south side at all. #9, I think, in the afternoon is getting shaded by the house. so probably not super scorcher? It sounds like based on what you guys said that I could probably use a Hybrid Musk,... sometimes you probably just have to try things, right?

Hi John, unfortunately Mr. Moore had lost Sierra Snowstorm long before I met him thirty-ish years ago. The closest I ever got to seeing it was growing Renae, Carolyn Dean and Dancing Doll. I did raise a yellow Renae seedling, so yellow is possible from her. Etoile Luisante wasn't Ragged Robin. RR is Gloire des Rosomanes. Etoile Luisante was also called Baby Herriot because it was a polyantha nearly the color ofMme. Edouard Herriot, a Pernetiana. The patent information was that Renae was the stated parentage. Many years later, Mr. Moore came to the conclusion Renae and the other siblings were actually self seedlings of Etoile Luisante. Unfortunately, he'd also lost Etoile Luisante many years before we met, so I have never seen that one "in person" either. Am I comfortable with his later years conclusion that the roses were selfs of Etoile Luisante? No. I seriously doubt a result such as Annie Laurie McDowell could have resulted from a straight Etoile Luisante breeding, but it COULD result from something containing Gloire des Rosomanes. Some day, I genuinely want DNA tests of Gloire des Rosomanes, Grandmother's Hat, Renae and Annie Laurie McDowell. Gloire des Rosomanes is strongly in the mold of Grandmother's Hat. They share too many scents and plant textures to not at least share common ancestry, if not direct blood line. Annie Laurie McDowell resembles Grandmother's Hat in a number of her textures and parts. Etoile Luisante likely has a multiflora X Pernetiana (Foetida) background. Perhaps Carolyn Dean might result from an Etoile Luisante selfed-self, but I think Renae might be pushing that a bit too far. A further selfing producing Annie Laurie McDowell is really stretching it. Did you notice the 1939 reference on HMF stating the breeding was (Gloire des Rosomanes X Dorothy Perkins) X (Mlle. Cecile Brunner X Mme. Edouard Herriot)? I have no idea where that information came from, but it might give a clue to what produced Etoile Luisante. If it's correct, it could answer quite a few questions and even explain the results Renae produces. Mr. Moore described Sierra Snowstorm as yellow that faded white, probably quite a bit like the blooms of Jersey Beauty or Aglaia. The HMF reference which describes it as "8 feet in diameter, producing white roses the size of half dollars in clusters like miniature white Cherokees". Of course, "Cherokees" refers to R. Laevigata. Then, the 1937 reference stating, "Bud small, long-pointed, cream and yellow; flower small (2 in. across), single, open, lasting, intensely fragrant, white, in cluster."? Then, describes it as a "Mrs. Dudley Fulton type"? I doubt it was as intensely yellow as my yellow Renae seedling, but it probably was about as color stable. It's definitely one of many of his roses I would love to have been able to study.

Another fun comparison: Left: RU, Distant Thunder, Own Root, I’ve had it about 1 month. This plant had the thinnest stems of the three, also had smaller root ball than the K&M. Very healthy, put out a lot of new growth Middle: Wayside, Molineaux, Bare Root, Dr Huey, also had it about a month. By far the thickest stems, but of course being bare root had to grow new feeder roots. Good progress, there’s even a bud. Right: K&M, Buxom Beauty ,Fortuniana, just arrived today. Thicker stems than the RU rose, also had a very dense rootball. Was trimmed short significantly to fit in packing box so most of the mature foliage is gone, but lots of new growth remains, even 2 buds. I’m very happy with all three providers, and thankful that I’m able to get hard-to-find varities in mid summer in great health!

@purilisaVA-zone7B you're welcome! Don't forget Renae, ALmD's parent. It is also wonderfully shade tolerant, continuous-flowering, remarkably well scented and a gorgeous thing. Renae was the sister of the man in Visalia who owned the drug store. She passed from cancer in the early forties. Mr. Moore named the rose to memorialize her. ALmD inherited her slow-to-start from Renae as well as her lack of prickles, tolerance for shade and delicious scent. Another of Mr. Moore's marvels without prickles is Climbing Yellow Sweetheart. It's also remarkably well scented and a gorgeous thing. Its remarkable story is presented on HMF, written by the late and continuously missed, Jim Delahanty (jimofshermanoaks) and me: "What Was Lost is Found". The rose can be found here. https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.23069 Our article, documenting the resurrection of this desirable rose is here. https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=66.587