A lot will depend upon climate and how sharp your pruning shears are, Diane. Mine is the original seedling and has remained less than two by two feet. I have never pruned it other than to supply bud wood and cuttings. However, Cass Bernstein in Santa Rosa, where there is more actual winter chill, much more water and much better 'soil', has it perhaps three to three and a half feet tall and wide in the open ground. I doubt she prunes it much, other than to dead head. Being of fairly traditional "poly growth", in order to get any bud wood or really decent cuttings, you have to take whole canes as there are only decent buds on the lower third to half, with the rest being nearly all flowering stem.

So, I'd think you should be able to grow it in a fifteen gallon can for quite a while without issues. I'd suggest renewing the soil every year or two to keep it happy. Many of my original seedlings have languished in seven and fifteen gallon cans of depleted soil for YEARS, and lived to tell their tales. Kim

Too Cute in Cass' garden, photo by Cass Bernstein.

Thanks so much Kim! Yes I've seen that lovely photo of Cass's plant. It's what made me get Too Cute.

Diane

That rose really is too cute. I've never heard of it but would be happy to give it room in my garden. Very pretty shade of pink and fluffy. I'm surprised we haven't heard more about it.

Ingrid

Ingrid, I got mine from Burlington. Waiting for 2 Annie Laurie McDowell's from her in the fall. I didn't trust my skills to get them any earlier.

Diane

Polys and any which grow like them, are difficult to produce in any quantities, unless you have multiple mother plants. Most often, you have a length of cane at the bottom of massive flower clusters which have only a few growth buds. In order to root a lot of them, it requires removing much of the plant for cuttings. Too Cute does root easily and has been grown own root by most who have sold it. The initial plants from Ashdown were budded because that's how Paul set up the nursery, but Sequoia and Burling root them. Annie Laurie McDowell is really the only seedling I've released which genuinely benefits from budding. She WILL root pretty easily and she WILL grow well own root, but she will demand it be on HER schedule, unless you take the lead and dis bud her to force her to climb. All the others generally root and take off like a house-a-fire. Personally, that's the only way I like a rose to behave. I'm honestly not that interested in raising roses which require rootstock under them. It's just counter productive. Paul Zimmerman told me several times he loved how quickly and easily Lynnie rooted and how she started flowering at such a small size, in small pots. I like "pound puppy roses"...those who are just happy to be with you! Kim

Kim, I'd like to post a photo of Annie that I received from Long Ago Roses before she stopped shipping to CA. It's not growing at all. Maybe you'll have some pointers. Will start another thread when I have time.

Diane

OK, Diane. How long has she grown where you have her? If the conditions are cool to too cold, she's going to sulk. If you can increase the heat (reflected heat from hard scape or walls; perhaps putting the plant in a clay pot?), it should help stimulate the plant to grow and help release nutrients from the soil by increasing the bacterial and fungal activity in it. Organics break down significantly faster in warmer soil, releasing nutrients better and faster, feeding the plants more efficiently. Warmer (not HOT) roots push the plant to grow faster, making use of the released nutrients better.

If you haven't already, feeding with a very dilute concentration of a water soluble fertilizer can help dramatically, too. The last batch of wraps I did this winter/spring callused very well and just SAT in their pots. A big part of the issue was a batch of Miracle Gro Moisture Control Soil which was dramatically more dense than the usual. It compacted very densely in the pots and the callus picked up moisture from it well enough to keep the plants alive, but it prevented them from forming roots. I pushed them along by feeding them weakly, weekly. Instead of the table spoon per gallon of fertilizer, I used half strength. The last two feedings were actually the liquid Miracle Gro straight through the liquid garden feeder. The blamed things are throwing roots and growing. Of course, it is dramatically hotter and sunnier here than where you are, so any results here should tend to be more dramatic (both positive as well as negative). If you can increase the warmth and give her a bit of food, it should help. Kim

Hi Kim, sorry for the delay in answering.

Annie's been with me since last September. I am currently using a mulch of well composted chicken manure.

Heat is a word that doesn't get used in Pacifica very often so that may indeed be the problem. I'll try using a clay pot. I've been wondering about using some kind of reflective surface (aluminum foil?) under the roses to try and give them more light/warmth.

Diane

I don't know about the aluminum foil, Diane. What they do in the strawberry fields in Camarillo (you know, the ones surrounded by fire and whose plastic "buildings" burned with the toxic chemicals shown on all the news programs) is put black plastic sheeting under the roses to trap and radiate the little "heat" they get. Of course, holes are punched in it to permit water and oxygen in and carbon dioxide out. The foil would reflect light, but I'm not sure about heat. The black plastic absorbs the heat, transmitting it to the soil and warming the air above it. Placing a clay pot on a stone or concrete surface where the sun, if and when there IS sun, can shine on them, warm them so they can reflect and radiate it, should have the same effect.

I'd say, as long as the foliage and wood on the plant appear the color you would expect them to be, there isn't anything "wrong" with her, she's just taking her own sweet time. I still think any improvement in heat and a gentle nudge with a weak liquid fertilizer would go a long way to jump start her. Good luck! Kim

mmmm, taking of cuttings - I have asked for cuttings on several occasions only to leave behind a gape of astonishment and eyebrows raised to the stratosphere as I have massacred someone's beloved plant under their noses, taking a vast swathe of growth. The only thing to do is smile insouciantly, say 'thank you, matey' and exit speedily.

My niece mentioned on one of her trips down from Georgia several years ago that a rose she was given had been sitting there doing nothing for several years. She's not a gardener so I told her to give it all her banana peels and coffee grounds. Fast forward to today, and she sent me a picture of it yesterday. It is, literally, the size of a Volkswagen bus and covered in blooms. Absolutely gorgeous plant. Now that I've gone all the way around my elbow, the point of this story is I asked her to mail me cuttings of it, and she didn't have a clue what a cutting was.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Kim, I'll definitely try the black plastic.

Sounds like a visit to my local coffee house for grounds is in order. Will try it.

Diane

Coffee grounds, banana peels, anything organic, are going to work much more slowly when your air and soil are colder and the sun is a hit and miss proposition. Tread lightly with them in those conditions because you can generate mold instead of the nicely digested, organically rich soil you hope for. In colder situations, the plant is going to receive the NPK levels it wants much more efficiently if you simply mix some inorganic, liquid or water soluble fertilizer and feed weakly, frequently. That extra nitrogen is also going to be used by the soil bacteria to help digest your organics when there is enough heat to kick them into efficient operation.

In cool to cold situations, black plastic with holes punched through it, can be used to cover the compost piles to help gather the heat from the sun so the bacteria begin cooking.

Use the organics, by all means, but if you want to see results and are impatient for them as I know I become, a quarter to half tablespoon per gallon of your water soluble, inorganic fertilizer of choice is going to produce faster results. Combine that with preventing the plant from flowering and you have the best method of pushing a reluctant plant into performance. Water it well one morning, then feed weakly that afternoon or the next morning. Repeat weekly as desired. Kim

Thanks Kim. Really appreciate your expert advice.

Diane

My pleasure Diane. I had to resort to a lot of Miracle Gro and Vigoro in Pacific Palisades to accomplish precisely what you desire for the same reasons. WHEN there was sun, it came with sixty degree air temperatures. The fog was so heavy, every morning the place looked as if it had rained. Everything was simply WET and dripping with water. Timed release fertilizers seemed ineffective, unless they were in hanging baskets where the sun and warmer air would warm them. Pots had to be placed on the asphalt to make use of the passive solar heating. Clay and ceramic pots were frequently pressed into service to 'cook' the plant root balls to push growth and provide the heat required to make citrus, blueberries and strawberries and tomatoes sweet. All things I had to work against at home where it was frequently forty to fifty degrees hotter. Kim

Kim, which version of Miracle Gro do you recommend? They have a version for container plants that's a liquid. Would that still need to be 1/2 strength?

Diane

Diane, since I use the same stuff for potted plants where kids and pets are as well as for my seedlings and cutting grown plants, I use the water soluble All Purpose you mix at one table spoon per gallon of water for most uses. If I'm fertilizing a well established potted planting, I'll mix it at the tablespoon per gallon. If it's for seedlings or immature cutting grown plants, I'll mix it half that strength. I had the liquid for the hose end liquid feeder and I have used that on the cuttings I've already upsized into gallons and the seedlings which are now pushing six months old with no problems.

I've always liked the water soluble as I can tailor the strength to what I needed, but the liquid is faster and easier, but MUCH more expensive. I don't know how well it will work in the long run in comparison, but they aren't the main fertilization methods anyway. More for spot treatments and where I don't want anything which is going to stain hardscape or attract dogs and small kids. I frequently buy Vigoro because it's almost identical to the MG water soluble and costs several dollars less depending upon size, probably due to less advertising costs. I honestly can't see any visible differences in the results. As Ralph Moore said for nearly a century, "Roses (and other plants) can't read!" Kim