Look back at some of Ralph Moore's roses. You might find it there.

Jeri

Jeri - last year I tried to identify this rose, and someone suggested Moore's Cl Yellow Sweetheart. I looked it up on HMF and that rose's blossoms are much too big, color of buds is wrong, form is wrong, mine is not a climber, etc. However, I am more than willing to believe it is a Moore rose - I would presume a miniature, as the flowers are only 1 1/2 - 1 3/4 inches across.

I understand that there are over 400 Ralph Moore roses. Do you know of any source where there is a list, with descriptions, or a person who is very familiar with Moore roses? I am hoping that the fact that this one is an old completely thornless yellow with miniature sized blooms would make it easy to narrow down the field, but I don't know where to start. Thanks -

Jackie

Jackie, your best sources are probably Jim Delahanty and Kim Rupert -- they, and Burling Leong (Burlington Roses) know Mr. Moore's roses better than any other person now living. Well, Carolyn Supinger -- but she is not generally speaking on line. And Paul Barden, too.

And no, I don't think Cl. Yellow Sweetheart. I have photos of that -- all I have to do is find them, and the bloom is very petite. :-) Plus, it REALLY is a Climber.

Your rose's color really does make it a modern rose, tho.

Jeri

It is not Cl. Yellow Sweetheart, which I have grown.

I agree that it does have the look of a Moore rose. It would have to be approximately at least 4-5 yrs. older than the year in which you propagated it. Do you have any way of finding out a tentative planting date, such as recollections from people who might have lived in your town a long time? Do you know for how many years the cottage had been empty? If you were able to establish a cutoff date, say 1990 for example, then you could search HMF for yellow thornless miniatures introduced before that date. You might want to try Mr. Moore's roses first, and then branch out if none of his fit.

The plant keeps saying "polyantha or hybrid musk" to me. The wood, foliage and flowers seem very "Aglaia". The form, texture and red coloring of the buds say, "Leonie Lamesch", though I know it isn't.

Using advanced search on HMF for polyantha, thornless and introduced before my arbitrarily selected date of 1970, the only rose which fits is Eugenie Lamesch.

The plant architecture isn't saying "miniature" to me. It also isn't saying "China", but more poly and hybrid musk-ish. Using the advanced search for thornless minis, not even limiting them to yellow, nothing comes up resembling your rose.

Now, to find better images of Eugenie and documentation it was grown here. I think you will find the descriptions in the "References" section interesting. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Eugenie Lamesch

Well, That would be a nice find, wouldn't it?

Jeri

The Wills cigarette picture shows hooked prickles on Eugenie Lamesch.

But the description says it was thornless or almost so, and the 1936 reference says it had "few thorns."

The thorns in the cigarette card could be "artistic license," or the artist showing what the few thorns do look like.

The references also describe an apple or violet scent. What do the flowers on yours smell like?

I checked the earliest CRL I had, but there is nothing listed for Eugenie. Modern Roses, the first edition, 1940, gives an expanded description, but unfortunately, no introduction listing. Sometimes, for later roses, they'll give the breeder's information, then who introduced it into the US. This is too early for such entries (1899).

But, as we've seen, California had wealth. Money brings many 'luxuries' and it was common for us to have European roses within a year or two of their European introductions. It was also common for enthusiasts to import extensively from European sources as there was no post entry quarantine to deal with. You wrote your order, sent your payment and the roses arrived at your door as if you had ordered from an American nursery.

Still, it would be nice to find an old catalog listing Eugenie just for the documentation she was available here. Kim

Jackie, I'd be happy to reimburse you postage for some harder wood cuttings of this rose if it's convenient for you and you'd be willing. Thanks. Kim

Here we go. In a GW thread from December 2008, the reprint of the book, The American Flower Garden, from 1909, was discussed. The author, Neltje Blanchan, was born in Chicago and she and her husband owned homes in New York and Oyster Bay. In her intro to the book, anntn6b wrote, "She grew both Leonie Lamesch and the lost Eugenie Lamesch, as well as other yellow roses that are familiar to a lot of us."

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg1215143529728.html

She appears to have been of some real means. Per Wikipedia, her grandson, Nelson Doubleday, Jr., purchased the New York Mets in 1986.

So, we know Eugenie was in the United States at least around the 1909 publication date of this book. It's not really a stretch to presume it was commercially available, if not at that time, at least in some years after that, particularly in a climate so well suited to roses where wealth was quite a bit more concentrated than in most of the country.

And, from the Official Catalog Roses by the Royal National Rose Society, 1910...

"Eugenie Lamesch (poly, pom.), Lambert, 1899. �" Clear
yellow, buds edged carmine. �" Dwarf. �" Garden,
bedding, edging. �" Distinct violet scent." Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Official Catalog of Roses, 1910

Wow! Thank you all so much. Kim, of course you can have cuttings - I will try to email you about that.

To give more info on where I got it - the old cottage was a remnant of a residential area on Third St. in San Rafael that has morphed into 100% commercial. I would guess, from knowing the neighborhood and trying to remember what it looked like, that the cottage was built around 1900 plus or minus 15 years. The lady who lived there was reputed to be very old, and have lived there for a long long, time. She died around 2000, and then the cottage was empty for a least 3 years, while the United Market store across Third St. tried to get the City to approve their plans for that lot and the lot next door (which had been another old cottage, but no roses left). Eventually part of the land was made into a parking lot, and on part of it they built a bakery for the store with 2 condos above.

While the cottage was empty I used to walk by there a lot. One day I took my clippers, and looked carefully at the tiny garden. As I recall, the roses I saw growing there were Dr. Huey (duh), Cecile Brunner, Peace, this yellow rose, and a climbing red rose. I took cuttings of the yellow and the red ones (the red one turned out to be a Cl Crimson Glory - it really does climb, evidently unlike some of the ones in commerce).

I looked up Eugenie Lamesch in "The Old Rose Advisor" (Dickerson, 1992), and there are several more descriptions of it from old sources. In general they agree with the ones on HMF, and with what my rose looks like. The cigarette card picture also looks like it, except for the thorns. So, who knows? I am guessing that the lady who lived there could have been there from the 1940s, or even 1930s. Our climate here is so benign, it could have been there when she moved in, or been a passalong plant from a neighbor or friend.

I did go out an sniff the one bloom that is open on mine at the moment, and I do think it smells faintly of apples.

Kim - looking forward to seeing what you think of it when you have been able to grow one yourself.

I guess I had better add this rose to my list of roses in my garden that I need to root more plants of!

Jackie

This is fantastic--the ID seems very likely--an outstanding rustle by Jacqueline & great detective work by Kim!

Notice also the bright red stems in the painting, a somewhat unusual characteristic.

One other thing I just noticed - there is a picture on HMF of a cigarette card painting of Eugenie Lamesch. One of the things it shows is that, although the buds, when tiny, are fat & pointed, when they are bigger (about the size of a nickel) they have very flat tops. What I have always considered one of the "strange" things about my rose is the very flat tops on the buds!

Jackie

Yes ma'am, AND the red blush to the buds. As Michael pointed out, the red wood is definitely an identifiable characteristic and one which strongly led me to the area of searching I pursued. That same characteristic is shared by many polys and hybrid musks, both of which are multiflora (through Aglaia) and Reve d'Or, Aglaia's mate to create the hybrid musk class. The size and shape of the hips also impressed me as characteristic with others of both classes as well as the general architecture of the plant. Eugenie seemed the only choice. I'm glad so many of the characteristics point that way. What fun! Thanks. Kim

Well, I'm convinced. I wonder if Jacqueline is the only living person to have looked at this rose while knowing its identity, and she just found out yesterday.

Is the latest direct reference the British book of 1947 in HMF references?

What a delight! I hope, Jackie, that your Cl. Crimson Glory gets propagated on, as well. I want to see both of them, one of these days. :-)

Jeri

I had a lot of things to do this afternoon, but did manage to get 4 cuttings of this yellow mystery rose into gallon plastic bags with dirt on my glassed in back porch for rooting (under a small fish tank so that the kitties can't get at them) - Kim seems really to think it is EL, and if it is one of the last ones anyone knows about in the world, that is very nervous making, so I am trying to root more, and tomorrow I am sending hardwood cuttings to Kim.

Jeri, I am also going to try and root my Cl. Crimson Glory for Pamela - I hope to have a few extras if they take.

Jackie

This has been a fascinating read! I so hope it is indeed EL, Jackie! That would be a wonderful find. Congrats on your successful rose rustle! And good luck with all your cuttings too!

It really is a very pretty rose. I'm glad you rescued it and saved it from oblivion. I'm thinking about the woman whose rose it used to be. I'll bet she would have been pleased to know that her rose lived on. There goes my romantic streak popping out again.

(I am keeping that spot reserved, BTW.)

Rosefolly

I don't blame you for having those thoughts, Rosefolly. I've grown Snowbird for thirty years, not simply because I like it and it's a wonderful, old-fashioned looking rose here, but R. Marion Hatton, who created it, was excellent in his duties for the ARS for many years and was highly respected and loved by those who knew him. Enjoying Snowbird in my garden is my way of honoring him for the kind of man he was and providing him my small measure of immortality. I grew Dainty Bess for years, both because I liked the rose, but also because it was Archer's tribute to the woman he loved and eventually married. I grow Leonie Lamesch because I find her beautiful. Now, after this adventure, she is even more important to me. Peter Lambert, who created both Leonie and Eugenie, was the force behind the creation of Sangerhausen and accomplished many rose-related good works. The year after he introduced Leonie and Eugenie, he married Leonie Lamesch, so that rose has taken on greater value in my mind.

I maintain several Jack Harkness roses for many of the same reasons. I respected him for his creativity, writing and for the well loved gentleman all who knew him proclaimed him to be. The same for Edward LeGrice. There are many others, including Ralph Moore, for whom I grow roses for the same reasons. So, yes, the "romantic streak" is strongly at work here, too. Kim

Jackie (and Kim), Thanks for such a great post. It's very exciting having found (most likely) a rose that has been lost to commerce. Please keep us posted on how your rooting efforts go.