I grow La France it has great fragrance and I love the form it black spots here and I can't imagine what it would be like in zone 9 it also is prone to balling in high humidity and has tissue like petals. Lady Mary FitzWilliams is a beauty but dispappears here very quickly a day at most.

Labrea, early on in my rose growing experience I read a contemporary (early 1900's) critique of Lady MF which said it was a mediocre rose (basically) but didn't elaborate. I was kind of surprised, but it sounds like you are concurring. Very interesting.

Thanks for the input.

Sherry

If the rose we've seen here is indeed Lady Mary Fitzwilliam, she is in incredible beauty, and tough as nails in various dry old cemeteries.

September Morn was one of Mel Hulse's favorites, but I have never attempted to grow it here, for it has a jillion petals.

Ophelia was weak here, on her own roots, but might well be fine, budded.

Chateau de Clos Vougeot (if what I have seen is it) is an incredible beauty with some mildew problems. And I mean WHAT a beauty!

You haven't listed Mme. Caroline Testout???

Jeri

Lady Mary FitzWilliam is a great rose in the right circumstances. I have a few shots of a beautiful example on help me find roses I was indicating that it opens and blows quickly here in zone 7 and I have read from other that have grown it that it also blows quickly for them. If I love a rose enough that would not be a drawback for me.

Sherry, I have several early HTs, having had to keep to SMALL myself. One is a pernetiana, which I know you don't want. But I have "Betty", which never gets talked about on the forum, and I absolutely LOVE it. It's very Tea-like, and is growing better and blooming more for me than any of the others that I have. The blooms are good-sized, a lovely warm pink, pale, with cream washing in. The petals have that fold-over look that some teas have, so romantic. The foliage is nice too - medium dark green, soft and rounded. A nice, light fragrance, but definitely not a strong one (for me, that's not a drawback, as I have an overly-sensitive nose). I've only had it since last Fall, when I got it as a band from Vintage, but it's growing well. It's still small, so the flowers look a bit out of proportion, but that won't be a problem once it grows up a bit. Also, being still so small, the blooms seem to be staring at the ground, because the have the nodding Tea habit, but again, that should not matter later on. The one fault it has is that it opens really fast from a lovely half-open stage to a full-blown stage. I thought at first the flowers were going to be those overnight-and-gone ones, but they last quite a long time in that full-blown stage.
I don't know anything about any of the others on your list, except that I have a small early HT (1934) called "Nigrette", which is a very dark red. One parent is Chateau de Clos Vougeot, from which I think it must get its lovely color. It has not been terribly robust for me, but I believe it's my fault, as I made a lot of mistakes with my first 3 roses. I've just repotted it into a larger pot and put it into a filtered shade spot (my balcony gets only afternoon sun, and last summer Nigrette nearly collapsed from it and the heat). It's supposed to be a strong grower, and I see it already looking much better. You can look it up in Vintage's catalog or on their website.

Laura

Sherry going down your list here is what I can say.
Captain Christy: It is quite small but not unvigorous. The blooms are very beautiful the rebloom is not bad, disease resistance here is good. I also have Climbing Captain Christy which is rather amazing because you get more of the fabulous blooms.
Grace Darling: This is a lovely thing. It has been easy to grow. Rebloom isn't bad.
Mrs. Wakefield Christy Miller: It is certainly small so place it accordingly. I find it to be a charming rose.
Augustine Guinoisso: I was suprised by this rose as I had some trouble with La France. Again it is small but perfectly fine. The pale blooms are pretty. It seems to be almost always in bloom here.
Mrs. Herbert Stevens: Has grown tall here. It is reamarkable for its scent. I love the blooms as well. I also have the climbing version which is very nice.
Ophelia: I can't possibly say enough nice things about Ophelia. To me it is one of those perfect roses. The shrub has a very graceful compact shape. The beautiful blooms reappear very well. It is pretty disease resistant here.
September Morn: I have been very happy with this rose. It grew swiftly from its band. You'll love the flowers. I think it appreciates sun because I had tried to start one years ago in a less than optimal space with results that were nothing like what I have now.
Good luck.

Great answers, Guys!

Jeri & Labrea, I feel bad about saying what I said about Lady Fitzwilliam. To be able to overlook her weakness must mean she has some other superior strengths. Thanks for standing up for her. I've heard great things about Sept Morn. Since Chateau de Clos Vougeot was raised by Pernet-Ducher, is it one of his Pernetianas? I just Googled the name - it's a famous vineyard in Burgundy, France. Could CdCV's color be the same as red wine? HMF says it ages to purple. Jeri, I didn't list Mme Caroline Testout because she's a #5, and I'm afraid she'd be too big. That's why I didn't include any of the Radiance clan. I have the MCT climber so I've got her covered. When "they" won't let me post again, I add a character to the end of the subject line. It fools them every time.

Laura, how neat that you mention Betty. After I posted this thread I started looking all of them up on HMF. Betty was the first one, and seeing her pictures and reading that she's Very Disease Resistant (hopefully, outside of CA), I was sold. She even has a strong Damask fragrance, they say. Nigrette has attracted me before.

Mendocino, I'm glad to hear that some of these roses actually do stay small. All of yours sound great, but my favorite nursery nearby is going to have Augustine Guinosseau in the fall, I think. I'm excited.

Gee, your reports are tempting me to give some of mine the bum's rush. Now I feel guilty.

Sherry

Sherry, I don't know about black spot, but do know a few of these roses in Sacramento.

Mme Caroline Testout is not so big - maybe four by four, but I doubt it, and we don't prune hard and have good conditions for roses to get big. I really love this rose, and so do most of the people who see it in the cemetery.

Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria is a fabulous, floriferous rose, but it does get big. It would easily be five by five if we let it.

All of the Radiance roses are good. We have a Mrs. Charles Bell that sports back to Radiance - or vice versa. It's in a "family plot" within the rose garden which is maintained by a family member, not the rose garden volunteers. She's a neatnik, but utterly loves this rose for its tidy growth and frequent, beautiful flowers.

I know the same supposed Lady Mary Fitzwilliam as Jeri - it's terrific in the cemetery, but who knows if it's correctly IDd.
Anita

I have the climbing version of 'Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria' and she is glorious.

Sherry - I don't think that "Betty" has a strong damask fragrance. To me it's a light Tea fragrance, and on HMF it is described the same way. Maybe it was one of the others that you were looking up that had the strong Damask? Betty has new buds right now, so when they bloom I'll check again.
Laura

Sherri, I have some of these bought as bands a few months ago, and now slowly getting planted in the garden proper.

La France-very vigorous! It's throwing HUGE basals everywhere, and the flowers it's produced have been BIG, beautiful and oh, so fragrant. Pure damask scent, too.

Captain Christy--I fell in love with the pictures. It's doing okay so far, but I had a turtle take a nap against one of the new canes yesterday and now it's somewhat tilted. Oops!

Mrs Charles Bell is a gorgeous pale pink for me, with fantastic fragrance, also seems very vigorous. (I have the other members of the Radiance clan, all doing very well.)

Hope this helps,

Elaine

Sherry, if you need no-spray roses for Florida, you might be lookin' for love in all the wrong places. That is, the old HTs will get blackspot. It's a myth that blackspot came in with the Pernetianas. All the bourbon and HP progenitors were and are susceptible, usually very susceptible.

It's no accident that most of the endorsements come from California.

Radiance and her three sports are often mentioned as the most resistant, and might be decent for you, but Radiance is not resistant in my garden.

Radiance is not resistant in my garden.

*** How bad is it, Michael?
I'm just curious.

McFarland, in 1936, (22 years after its introduction) said of 'Radiance':
"The Hybrid Tea, Radiance, is a world rose, because under almost any conditions within civilization it will deliver its globular, sweet-scented, clear pink blooms."

(I note that this does NOT include an assertion of freedom from disease! J. Horace didn't go quite THAT far!)
J. Horace lived in PA., btw.

Jeri

Perhaps J. Horace construed "conditions within civilization" to include spraying with sulfur or Bordeaux mixture :)

Elizabeth Lawrence grew it without spray in Raleigh, NC. Maybe Hamp does in Mississippi, I don't know.

As to how bad in my garden, not the worst HT but more susceptible than 'Elina'. I started spraying when it was 50% infected, but I think it would mostly defoliate. Conditions are harder here than in Florida, though.

Sherry, I bought both Radiance and Red Radiance from Roses Unlimited this year. They are ready to be re-potted into 14 inch pots already, and have had no blackspot whatsoever so far. That's not to say they won't blackspot, but they seem to be pretty healthy.

I have also been growing Tiffany and Queen Elizabeth no spray for the past two years. So far no major problems. I pick off the few blackspot leaves they get from time to time.

I am also having good luck so far with my Kordes roses. I purchased many of his most recent varieties.

I don't purchase hybrid teas that HelpMeFind says specifically are blackspot prone. I have ordered several virus-indexed hybrid teas from both Vintage Gardens and Roses Unlimited to try, many of them are "older".

I feel it's a myth that ALL hybrid teas in general can't be grown down here without huge blackspot problems. However, I also feel the worm castings and tea may be the "secret" in helping them stay healthy. For sure there are many that are disease magnets, but I've also had some teas get a lot of blackspot or mildew. Depends on the rose.

My Autumn Damask was awful for the two years I have had it, and I was going to remove it about two months ago. Balckspot galore, naked ugly canes. The blooms smell divine though. I don't know if it was the sight of my shovel going by or the worm tea, but it has filled out nicely and no sign of blackspot anymore. Not one leaf. Even in all this rain.

Sandy

Personally, the Radiances are not in my plans. I just don't know where I'd put them. It sounds like a wonderful rose, and hopefully, others will decide to try it from reading here. I have Tiffany also, and it's doing very well right now - even with all this rain. Really, all of my roses are doing well, but that was also the case last year before summer hit and with it the BS. I'm hoping that another year under their belts and my improved mulching will keep them from stressing as badly as they did last year. IOW, I'm not overconfident about being free from BS later in the year.

Re these old HT's I'm really interested in these that Vintage says stay "thigh-high" or thereabouts.

*** you might be lookin' for love in all the wrong places.

So what else is new, Michael? Right now my Mme Abel Chatenay is perfectly clean. I looked her up on HMF today, and she has lots of HP's in her lineage, so we'll see. The ladies at Rose Petals Nursery prune their HP's hard after each bloom to force new growth and get rid of older growth that is susceptible to or infected with BS. I don't know if I'll have to resort to that technique with MAC, but I guess it's an option unless she's a total mess. She defoliated last summer (along with several others), but I think it was heat stress.

Laura, you're right. HMF does not say Betty has a Damask fragrance. I was reading the wrong line in my scribbled notes.

Elaine, do you spray? Captain Christy's pics really are beautiful. Keep us posted on these roses as they progress, OK? We Floridians need to know.

Anita, I have wanted KAV for 2 years. I should have gotten her (I tried but VG sold out) last year but was unsure of her disease resistance here, and now the garden is full :((

Hopefully, others are growing some of these roses. W E Lippiat and British Queen are gorgeous - among others!

Sherry

Sherry,

I say go for it and try a few of the roses that intrigue you. You may be pleasantly surprised by them. They may only blackspot at a time you're not much interested in being in the garden anyway, like when it's 100% humidity and 95 degrees out. If I were left outside in August like the roses are I'd probably get blackspot too.

I never thought my Autumn Damask would ever be a plant worth growing. It surprised me this year, really surprised me. I think some roses have the ability to build up some immunity, just like people.

You can always try a few in pots too, if you don't have the room in the ground. Watering can be a pain, but if you only have a couple of them it might not be too terrible.

It's awful running out of room, isn't it?!

Sandy

Sandy, I don't mind pots, but I'm almost out of room for them, too.

Well, I went down the whole list with HMF, and after eliminating the ones only sold in France, not sold here, one that had R Foetida as a parent, several that said "susceptible to BS", one that wasn't for a warm climate, one that looked just like its parent Mme Caroline Testout, several semi-double (not my preference), and several pale pinks that looked like all the others, there were very few left. Just these:

Betty
Captain Christy
Grace Darling
Augustine Guinosseau
Augustine Halem
Ophelia
Mrs Charles Bell

That helped a lot, and it was fun. Some of these are similar in color to some I have, so they would probably be eliminated. So my roses that might think they're on the bubble can rest easy.

Thanks everyone for your input. I see now why there weren't more responses.

Sherry

I have Captain Christy and La France. CC appears to be an excellent, if slow-growing plant. The foliage is clean and healthy and rebloom appears to be pretty steady. La France, OTOH, if it were not historic and did not have such fabulous blooms, I wouldn't bother with it. I have grown LF in two different locations, for a total of about 10 years, and I have never seen the foliage free of disease. This its' last year with me. I am keeping it weeded, fertilizing heavily, and keeping it watered. If that doesn't work, it will be replaced. So far, not looking good.

Sherry, I do spray, but I'm not as religious about it as I used to be. Instead of every week, I go 2-3 weeks between sprays now.

LaFrance for me, right now, is clean. The flowers are gorgeous and the smell---just amazing. But it's throwing these huge long canes...I'm debating whether to cut it back to self supporting wood or peg it.

Elaine

I've seen Hadley in a botanic garden and it's a deep, velvety red, and also fragrant. Very beautiful if you like red, which I don't.

Ingrid

LaFrance for me, right now, is clean. The flowers are gorgeous and the smell---just amazing. But it's throwing these huge long canes...I'm debating whether to cut it back to self supporting wood or peg it. Elaine

*** Gregg Lowery mentioned that the only vigorous La Frances are a few of the climber.
Jill Perry (of the SJHRG) found a remarkably vigorous LaFrance in a Hwy 49 Cemetery, and Gregg thought it ought to be collected right away.
Two of the ladies from the Sacramento Cemetery Historic Rose Garden went up there, and came back with SEVERAL remarkable unidentifieds, along with the La France. They'll be in the Heritage, and in the Cemetery, for study.

Jeri

Thanks, Ingrid. I assume that was a CA botanical garden. At least it's still growing somewhere.

That's really cool, Jeri, that someone has found do many "unidentifieds".

Sherry

** Gregg Lowery mentioned that the only vigorous La Frances are a few of the climber.

Eeep! I planted it expecting kind of a runty sort of bush that was going to take time to mature. I certainly did NOT expect the green giant Austin effect! If it turns out to be the climbing version, I guess I'll move it.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, Sherri.

Elaine

That's really cool, Jeri, that someone has found do many "unidentifieds".

*** Well, there is more.
At least one of the roses found there has a fascinating connection to a California family with nursery connections.
Neat stuff.
I'm saving some of this for our Rose Rustling talk at the ARS Convention, this Fall, in Palm Springs. But we have found it really exciting.
OTOH, we do get excited about roses!

Jeri