Be much more interesting to know what Dan Hinkley will be doing next than to know where Heronswood has gone.... I think we all know where Heronswood has really gone.

I have noticed that since this topic has come up and is appearing all over the place, there has been alot of PA-bashing intermixed in with Burpee bashing. This has boggled my mind. I don't think too many people would tow a Burpee mass-production line, particularly since the company opted to go for mass consumerism after the Burpee family drifted out of the business. But I would agree with Mindy regarding the fact that whatever decisions the Heronswood owners decided to make were theirs and theirs alone.

Let's hope PWNers who have apparently never been here to PA (and threads in that forum are truly unbelieveable) understand that the climate here is by no means arctic and that somehow the only growing sanctuary in the entire U.S. exists in a climate that is overcast for much of the year and bone dry for 3 months. That's just silly. And what also needs to be mentioned is that the oldest botanical gardens in the U.S. are right here in SE PA, in fact, not far from Doylestown.

The whining that I have read has been truly incredible. I'm not taking up for Burpee but AM taking up for my home state. I would hope that proprietors of Bartram Gardens, Longwood Gardens, Chanticleer - all in PA - along with Winterthur in Delaware, and the various specialty nurseries in New Jersey and New York consider getting some of that material and growing it out in their own gardens and/or greenhouses.

Let's just stop the crap about PA. Okay?

jenny, i have been reading the various forums on heronswood and certainly i may have missed something but i highly doubt anyone was bashing PA. I really do think it just is Burpees they keep hitting. But if they really HAVE been bashing Pa. (and NOT its zonal limitations) maybe you should post your protest on the NW forum, not this one.
I for one, had such an education on Pa.- as- the- true- garden state-
last summer when we had the great wonderment that came with spending a week there in s.e. pa., touring AMAZING gardens , arboreta, private gardens. such a knowledgable, organized and active group of gardening enthusiasts down there. a GW contact, Carol L, took us around and it was just tremendous.
best, mindy

Mindy - I am glad you enjoyed your visit here. However, I have seen posts from people claiming that they would never buy plants from PA and insisting that all of the gardens will be "destroyed" once moved here and other such nonsense. And regarding zones - PA goes through to Zone 7 as of the last USDA update in 1990 and may go higher depending on what comes out with the new map. There are things such as greenhouses that allow plants to survive nationwide - whether in the PNW or the MidAtlantic.

Since Heronswood sold shrubs and perennials, I don't see how the discussion should just be limited to the PNW forum - particularly if the final destination is Pennsylvania - although there's no mention in the PA Forum interestingly enough. Maybe because we take gardening so casually as a natural course of our lives. ;-) That place was well-known among officiandos and it's sad that its "brand" and standards, meticulously upheld by the original owners and their staff, is no more - not unlike what happened with Burpee. However I think the wait and see approach, along with advocacy ALSO here in Pennsylvania, might be a better course of action.

As I understand it, there is a chain up across the entrance to the nursery out west, the employees have been fired and Burpee has announced that they will give it a trial period out of HQ in PA and if that doesn't work out, it will be an on-line 'nursery' only. Hinkley found out about it when he read it in the paper.
Nobody is objecting to PA - it's the actions of corporate owners that make us dubious. The same thing has happened to the various outifts that a certain Connecticut nursery bought out. They were operated for a year or so, dwindled to a ghost and then vanished.
Fact is, nobody devotes the time and energy to maintaining a specialty collection like the person who built it. Once it is sold, the 'name' is retained but the goals of the owners are entirely different - bottom line is what counts, not maintaining a display garden, offering widest range of plants, selling hard to propagate and difficult to grow varieites....

My "issues" with PA are as follows:

Unless I pay for 3rd-day air or faster shipping, I can't count on getting plants to Nevada in good shape. Of course, the same holds true for PA residents ordering plants from Oregon, Washington and California.

The climate is so much different in PA than in Northern Nevada, that I'm dubious about ordering things from that side of the country in the first place. PA has a MUCH longer growing season with much hotter nights and a lot more rainfall. They get more snow cover in winter.

And THOSE are the chief reasons I tend NOT to buy plants from ANY East-Coast supplier, unless I know they can hold up in transit, know that they should do well in my climate, and I can't find them on the west coast to save on shipping costs and time in transit.

I WILL, however, cease to purchase any Burpee products because ownership rights aside, I completely disagree with the decision to move/close Heronswood.

Lisa

Again, I don't object to the sentiment of the corporate finangling with high quality plant materials, but even right here in this thread, there is an assumption that what Heronswood grew can only grow in the PNW and would surely die here. East coasters have ordered from them in the past and have grown their plants just fine.

I also think that it is possible that the idea of a "displheronswooday garden" might be a "corporate peer pressure" type thing because such gardens are popular and respected around this area. And it is possible they are attempting to mirror (and perhaps attempt to compete with) what is near them at places like Longwood gardens, etc. Ie., to become the "acceptable corporate gardening neighbor" and raise their image up a notch. The fact that display gardens are prolific here hasn't stopped horticulturalists working at such places from propagating and collecting and growing out in greenhouses, etc, located at their facilities. Most have teamed up with local colleges and universities to assist in research. John Bartram certainly did quite a bit of collecting and propagating in his day and his garden survives with many species here in the U.S. coming from his own original stock propagated by him and his collegues (eg., Franklinias from Georgia, etc). This a couple centuries before Heronswood existed.

Of course we are talking "Burpee"... But take note that the Philadelphia Flower Show, which is the largest indoor garden show in the world, has its winning entrants usually maintaining display gardens and Burpee participates in the show every year. And with Burpee expanding more and more into selling actual plant materials, it seems like this type of operation may have come to mind to them.

This all sortof sounds like what happened to Maytag, who practically begged Whirlpool (itself, quickly becoming one the few major appliance-makers left, now owning Fedders, Kitchenaid, Amana, etc) to buy them out so as not to lose their "brand" and workers, etc. Sadly, this is the way that many old-time businesses have gone of late (including department stores, banks, etc).

And Lisa - I have routinely purchased plants from the west coast - whether from places like Digging Dog or Bay Laurel and if the outfit is legitimate enough, they know how to ship long distances and I have been happy with what I have received from those places. However note that if a plant is grown totally in a controlled greenhouse - like many nurseries have done because they have potted specimens that they sell, then the outdoor "climate" becomes irrelevant.

I think the most recommended thing that I have seen posted here at GW over the years regarding buying plants is to get them from a local source and when not available there, I have seen many organizing local swaps where cuttings, divisions, or seeds can be traded (also do-able here at GW). And in your case, I can't see how the PNW climate somehow matches your climate but travel distance for plants makes sense....

Jenny, Heronswood to the PNW is the Longwood to PA. Shutting the doors to one of our gardening icons is a hearbreaker, especially with such complete disregard to the gardening community. I imagine you would feel the same if Longwood closed it's doors unexpectantly and moved it's operation to Seattle.

As for someone who has spent enough time in PA and WA, the climate is very different. Sure, some plants will thrive but the colder winters (believe me Pa's winters are much colder) and the hot, humid summers will definitely take a toll on a majority of those exotic plants. Come visit us, you'll think our rainy winters are mild and our summers are chilly.

We're in mourning. Please go easy on us.

nwnatural - I have been there, which is why I am commenting. For some reason, many there think that plants like broadleaf evergreens only came from there despite the fact that more native species of such plants are found here on the east coast.

W. Atlee Burpee was once one of the most respected places in the nation for seed growing and plant/vegetable hybridizing. And it was located right here in Philadelphia (with other properties bought later in the company's history). A member of the Burpee family was Luther Burbank, who you should know about over there. And what has become of Burpee now after its merger? The exact same thing that may become of Heronswood. So how can you say that I don't sympathize?

IMHO, rather than whining about the perceived growing climate in PA - and certainly PA does not have a homogenous climate as you seem to want to indicate (and I have been a hobbyist in meterology for a long time and contrary to popular belief, it does freeze and does snow in Western Washington as it is not a tropical climate, and I won't even get into what happens up in the mountains or even in Eastern Washington), it seems that a better course of action is to perhaps hook up with PA gardening collegues and find a way to make some waves from this end.

I lurk in the PNW forum all the time (in most of the various region ones in fact), and there is continual mentions about all the "many" nurseries there and along the entire west coast. I doubt that gardeners in the area will suddenly lay down and die, ceasing all their growing forever and ever. Someone else will surface to take their place - particularly if former employees decide to get together and start their own venture under a different name. I think encouraging that sort of thing is more productive. I'm afraid that boycotting will probably make no difference because the average joe who might purchase from Burpee has no clue who Heronswood is or even cares and that is who Burpee has chosen to target. Although doing so would give one a sense of satisfaction of taking your own stand and making an informed choice. I personally stopped buying from Burpee some 20 years ago. But one might want to encourage places like Burpee to clean up their own act. And of late, they seem to have made some efforts to do so after the severe nose-dive that they took during the '80s.

Don't forget that people like Dirr are still around and there will always be collectors and hybridizers around. :-)

People who rant(continue to enter long posts on the same subject) are an interesting group.( O.K.Here I go, expecting the sling of arrows to come). Jenny in se pa.-when i read your first post, i felt that with your angry hurt feelings, you actually must have been slandered. You told people to stop pa.-bashing. When I re-read the various Heronswood threads, I couldn't read into any of the comments- a slandering of pa. Instead, I read many comments that were bashing burpee and the pa. growing conditions that would not support a 'recreation of the H gardens'. And while others on this thread have replied to you with apologies and re-clarifications of "no-offense-meant to pa.", you have INSISTED on ranting to this same audience.Even my exuberant (and honest) cheerleading for pa. gardens- didn't assuage you for a second. And just today, awnatural from PNW explained how the NW garden community is "in mourning and please go easy with us." But ms. ranter offered not a moment's solace to a heartfelt request from another gardener.Well , THIS camel's back has been broken. Jenny, it's time for you to hush up on this thread. Take your rants somewhere else. At this point they are redundant and unnecessary. If you DO decide to get ACTIVE on the pa. end-to improve the H situation, I'll be cheering for you.
best, mindy

Mindy - I think I have been quite reasonable and non-ranting and I think you are over-reacting to comments that may not fit whatever it is you expect to read. Being a member of the PA Horticultural Society, I may consider getting involved. There's no need to expect arrow slings as this is a discussion forum and this thread was started why? I thought as a head-up to perennial growers who frequent GW who may have had or continue to have a vested interest in Heronswood. Certainly there is power in numbers.

A person speaks for oneself IMHO and the sentiment here seems to suggest that perhaps threads in the future on this issue belong in a "Conversations" sub forum somewhere, if comments and opinions from others about the growing conditions of perennials sold by that nursery and options that exist for preserving the plant material, are not welcome.

you continue to miss the point.no matter how intelligent,rational and informative you are, you should learn to both accept and SHOW sympathy for others, especially when they ask you for it.
best, mindy

I'm afraid I haven't missed any "point". No matter how many times I can keeping posting that as a life-long gardener, the loss of truly dedicated nurseries such as this one and others over the years, is extremely disheartening. But I prefer to not to wallow in it (a valid opinion) and consider it an opportunity for better things to come of it- it's called beng an optimist and forward-thinking. Out of the ashes, a phoenix can arise.

coals to newcastle. i am very sorry that your parents must have been so hard on you. and didn't teach you how to feel and SHOW compassion by saying you're sorry in the appropriate situations.
best, mindy

We will have to agree to disagree about your interpretation of my thoughts and leave it at that. I am sorry that you miss my point.

My two cents: The true fault doesn't lie with Burpee, it lies with Dan Hinkley. *HE IS THE ONE WHO SOLD THE NURSERY*. What on Earth did he imagine would happen to his treasure trove once he sold out to the big guns?

mxk3: What you say is true. What's more, Dan Hinkley accepted blame in a recent article in one of the PNW newspapers. I forget which one, but he did say that it was his choice to sell to Burpee, and that he was therefore essentially to blame for the choice turning out to be a bad one (I'm paraphrasing). Hinkley, at least, isn't making any excuses even as he expresses regret for the end of Heronswood.

The more I've read in the last week or so, the more I've become convinced that Hinkley sold for the reason many small nurserymen sell: He wanted his life and his plants back. He wanted to stop spending an ever-increasing amount of time dealing with non-horticultural tasks like taxes, bookkeeping, personnel paperwork, and general logistics. He wanted to (and I think quite reasonably) get back to plant-finding and gardening.

Of course I find the loss of Heronswood saddening, even though I never did take the opportunity to visit in person. Of course I am incredibly peeved at Burpee for doing what they did. Of course I'm going to boycott Burpee and Ball companies. But at this point, I'm feeling very taoist: "Manure happens".

Lisa

I accidentally posted this on the arum forum, looking for discussions of Heronswood's closure.

I placed my first order from the "new" Burpee/Heronswood web site last month, 3 Beesia deltophylla. Dan Hinkley had written a snippet about this plant in Horticulture mag, and I was intrigued. (I DO wonder if he gets a kick back...)

The plants arrived yesterday, apparently shipped from Delaware, and I was pleasantly surprised, They were well packed, decent sized (well, they're small, but they're as I expected) and healthy-looking plants. I actually doubt that the Heronistas could have done better.

These plants were hard to find, Asiatica has them for $20 and Heronswood had them for $13. I figured I'd try Heronswood, not just because of the price difference but to see how the new company worked, and to avoid getting hooked on Asiatica, which looks incredibly enticing.

Anyway, it was a big relief to find that, for the present, Heronswood's new incarnation is not too bad. Of course I miss the old catalog, and the possibility of visiting the garden, but this has gotten me over the period of mourning that we've all experienced.

It has always been my feeling that there are two distinct issues here:

1. Heronswood, in its original incarnation as a unique and
very personal nursery, is gone. Fact of life, nothing to be done about it. . .and I wish the many interested parties
in Washington trying to put together a coalition to save
the original site as a public garden, all the luck in the
world. . .

2. The separate issue, however, is whether Burpee will use
the Heronswood name, with all of its valuable connotations,
inappropriately. . . "DiggingtheDirt" has very sagely put
them to the real test, and seems to be fairly impressed,
at least initially; maybe more of us should do the same,
despite our heightened sense of "violation", and let them
fall on their own petard. . .or not. . .

Later this summer, I'll report back on my impressions
after attending a few of the Open Houses this season, at
the "new" Heronswood East-at-Burpee-Fordhook-Farm. . .
(Apr. 19-21 / May 18-19 / Aug.3-4 / Sep. 21-22)

Carl

Here is a link that might be useful: Heronswood Nursery (East)

There's a story in today's (3/8) N.Y. Times (registration may be required) about the Heronswood property in Washington state being on the market (bids start at $9 million) and efforts of a gardeners group to buy it.

"Gardeners have started the Pacific Northwest Horticultural Conservancy (www.weloveplants.org), to buy the site and turn it into a research and education center. The group has asked Mr. Ball to lower his price, said its chairwoman, Lee Neff. Mr. Ball said he had offered to sell it to the group for $4.5 million.

No matter the outcome, Burpee will have a hard time rebuilding its image in this region. In newspapers, people have disparaged it as shameful, deceitful, greedy and inept..."

The article details what led up to the sale of Heronswood to Burpee by Dan Hinkley and Robert Jones.

"...the responsibility (of running the nursery) became oppressive, Mr. Hinkley said.

The owners decided to sell when Burpee, whose catalog readership is in the millions, offered $4.5 million for the Heronswood name, nursery and gardens, Mr. Ball said.

Mr. Ball, who has compared Burpee to a Ford and Heronswood to a Jaguar, said he could not turn a profit on his new brand. Many perennials that thrived in Kingston cannot survive in backyards in drier, hotter regions or colder regions, he said.

The Burpee research director, Grace C. Romero, said many potential customers found the Heronswood catalog, with its Latin names, impenetrable. In 2003, Mr. Ball said, he offered to sell back Heronswood and an adjoining property to its founders for $2.8 million, 60 percent of what Burpee paid, but they declined.

In short order, Burpee produced a catalog bursting with color photographs.

To Mr. Hinkley, that "vulgarized" what Heronswood represented. "These are not marigolds," he said...

Mr. Ball said he fantasized that a very wealthy man would buy the property for his garden-loving wife."

Unfortunately the article does not mention what happened to the devoted employees of the Washington nursery (the "Heronistas"), who are the only real losers in all of this.

Maybe forum participants could pool spare change and buy the property for $4.5 mil. ;)

Or, anyone, including forum participants who were interested in saving the garden, could make whatever donation is comfortable to non-profit www.weloveplants.org.

Eric, you said the heronistas were the only real losers here...certainly no employee anywhere deserves the treatment they were given and I won't buy from Mr. Ball for that reason, but all of us interested in new introductions lost.

If anyone deserved firing, Ms. Romero should have been first in line. I find it insulting we aren't being given credit for the ability to read text; sadly, Mr Ball still hasn't learned that we don't need colored photographs to be enticed to try something new. Those glossy (unsolicited) catalogs recently being delivered go into the recycle bin here, while I have more than a dozen years of text only Heronswood catalogs lined up on my shelves right alongside of hardcover Armitage, Verey, Hobhouse, Graham Stuart Thomas, Druse etc. They were packed with valuable descriptions and cultural information and I refer to them often.

Tony Avent, Plant Delights
" In 2006, Burpee discontinued the main catalog to save money...in spite of the fact that this was the main source of income. The scant selection of plants for the 2006 color catalog were even more bizarre, being obviously selected by a catalog designer with no plant knowledge. "

And there's my objection - Mr. Ball is not a plantsman, but a businessman of questionable skill.

Here's a link to the complete New York Times article that
Eric mentions above. . .

Here is a link that might be useful: New York Times

Interesting that the article, in a national publication like the NYT, has such a provicial focus.

Heronswood, without question, was a dominant force that raised the level of gardening across N America and the world. This was in NO way confined to the PNW. Even here in the lowly midwest, the antithesis of a garden mecca in NA, Heronswood was a major force in making me a better gardener. I suspect that many others feel the same, across the western hemisphere and the world.

It REALLY is a shame that that force in American gardening disappeared. Sure, I can see it was oppressive for the owners, such a responsibility. I probably would have sold out too. The garden will mainly be a benefit and treasure for those who live in the PNW. I will probably contribute since I visited Heronswood 4-5 times, and if it is open to the public again would probably do so again.

But it will never be the same for those of us who do not live in the region.

Heronswood Nursery is selling beautiful hellebores at the Philadelphia Flower Show. I was there yesterday and bought three. I am pleased with them and with the assistance I received. I probed quite a bit and was impressed with the plant knowledge as well. It was a good experience.

I have visited and purchased from the original Heronswood site in the fall of 05. On the island, I also visited and purchased from two other nurseries that I found delightful.

I heard Dan Hinkley speak last year. His presentation was mostly on his new garden and home. It would appear he is very happy and is making (or has made) the garden of his dreams.

Having visited Heronswood annually for many years, I would love to hear more about his new garden. Would you talk a bit about it? thanks much
mindy

Hello mindy: I am probably not the best person to address this. When I re-read what I wrote above, it seems very stilted and wooden...quite unlike me, lol! However, I was trying to be very careful as I have no desire to upset anyone.

For me, Dan Hinkley was to be the highlight of that Horticulture Symposium (06). Unfortunately, it didn't turn out that way. The other speakers (all women) were present for the entire symposium. Dan, we were told, would arrive after lunch (in time for his presentation) because he wanted to practice the piano.

In short, his presentation was what kind of a garden/home could one build if money were no object. I thought it rather thin. He has wonderous views (far better than at Heronswood), amazing water features and neighbors he doesn't seem to care for...although he doesn't know them (or didn't at that time...but didn't like their bumper sticker and the fact that their house was built too close to the property line...of course, we weren't told their side of the story).

The acquiring of the property was somewhat interesting. Reminded me of Thomas Hobbs' story of how he/they acquired their home, i.e., elderly residents who had to get to know them and understand they (the new owners) would love and appreciate the property.

He indicated he is writing, traveling and, I believe, even still doing plant collecting...in short, the life he wants.

I'm rather thin on details myself because I was so disappointed. Neither he nor his presentation lived up to what I had expected/hoped. I wouldn't make any special effort to hear him again.

Sorry I'm not able to tell you more. Perhaps there will be a book out of the new house/garden.

Anyone interested in what he is doing can sign up to continue to receive his newsletters here: Travelogue

Here is a link that might be useful: Dan Hinkley, Plantsman

Morz8,
thank you so much for that link. i'll be seeing him speak here in april- on china plant-collecting.Hopefully, gonegardng, it will be a worthwhile talk. sorry your experience was so disappointing. it must be difficult to ALWAYS be on. Such talent must show off-moments from time to time; like any great artist who gives a bad performance.
I guess we can still feel so lucky for all the other great things we have experienced because of him.......
best,
mindy

"Hinkley, at least, isn't making any excuses even as he expresses regret for the end of Heronswood."

No doubt selling Heronswood was a difficult decision for Mr. Hinkley, but having 7 figures in his bank account probably helps to ease that regret.

And although it's sad to lose a extraordinatry one-of-kind business, Hinkley did sell it and it couldn't have been that hard to figure out that Burpee would do what corporations do - focus on the bottom line.

My primary interest is gardening for wildlife, which includes native plants, organic gardening, etc. This can be done anywhere, in any climate, not just the gardening "shangri-la" of the PNW or the strategically located PA (or where ever). I don't care much about having 40 kinds of hellebores or having rare and exotic plants that were hand-collected in China.

Best wishes to everyone affected by this transaction - it sounds as though it is a difficult adjustment.

Just thought that I would comment that I too was at the Philly Flower Show where the "new" Heronswood (I actually hate to use that name in conjuction with them, having been a long term customer of the old nursery .... but hey, they bought the name, it's theirs...) had a booth. They DID have catalogs there. The catalogs were interesting. All color, Burpee style splash. Yes, there were a few scattered rarities from the old catalog ("DJHC 23978"...etc), lots of disporums and a fair number of Arisaemas. Many or most of the plants are listed in the catalog multiple times -- often 3 or 4 (?). There are lots of common plants too that anybody can get in any local nursery, if not the corner grocery store. And there are mistakes too. The common name for Veronica 'Pink Damask' is listed throughout as "Ironweed" -- which is of course the common name for the completely unrelated Vernonia, a fall blooming aster relative.

I must also say that I have to disagree with one of the posters above about "Heronswood Hellebores". That's what they were selling for a pretty penny ($20 smaller plant, $40-50 larger). They had named selections, but I can tell you that, having seen a lot of great hellebores (and no, not just in England, lots of places, including Heronswood (WA) itself), these were very mundane. The "pure white" was a greenish white with relatively small flowers, the double pink was actually a muddy mauve, the most common color of hellebore flowers from random older seed lines. IMO, nowhere worth the large sums they were charging for them, even though people were plunking down the bucks and walking away with them. You would be FAR better off to get really nice hybrids from hand pollinated crosses of select great plants from a Place like Pine Knot Nursery in VA, for the same money.

And it really bothered me that they DID have a nice display bowl of high quality hybrid flowers at the front of their display. It made you think that that was what you were getting. But it wasn't -- it was the mundane color form plants or the muddy doubles at the back of the display.

Far cry from the high quality hellebores that the nursery in Washigton was actually selling -- for the same prices.

Not necessary to say, as it has been said by many before and probably me several times, the passing of the old Heronswood was a huge loss for American horticulture. Who would blame them? -- not me. But still a loss.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pine knot Nursery

From my perspective, what sense of loss there was over changes at Heronswood came when the formerly huge catalog selection of Aster species and hybrids was drastically cut back. This actually happened well before the owners sold out to Burpee. Either they lost interest in Asters, or more likely there weren't enough gardeners like me to financially justify maintaining that wide a selection.

Even with a devoted following (especially regionally), it was probably not going to be feasible long-term to run a nursery with so many specialized/collector offerings. Instead of looking at the nursery's passing as a loss, maybe mourners should think about the benefits of Hinkley being able to continue traveling, collecting and promoting new plants on a long-term basis.

Meantime we can only reminisce about those golden nights high in the mountains near Katmandu, when first we spied Kudzu orientalis twining about our ankles, while yaks bellowed softly as they trampled our tents in the moonlight. :)

For those of you who miss Dan's poetic (and sometimes purple) prose that most often made reading the original Heronswood catalog an endless joy and delight, he has a personal website that includes both his personal musings on gardening (and his new garden) as well as a travelog on recent exploration expeditions. Always entertaining :-)

And david, I'm going to disagree with you on the new hellebore introductions. Yes, 'Green Heron' and 'Snow Bunting' are pretty darn ordinary and hard to justify the high price of tissue culture and patenting, but the other two cloned and named forms are, IMO, definitely worth considering. 'Kingston Cardinal' is the double red and I'd have to guess you didn't see it at its finest. The flowers go through a range of coloration that is pretty stunning. They start out a deep cherry red in bud, open to a wine color and mature to a clear raspberry, identical to the color photographs in the catalog. As they age they do take on muddier, more mauve hues, but that muddying of the flower color as they age is present with all strongly colored x hybridus, with the possible exception of the blacks or slates. What is impressive about this selection, in addition to a rather unique color, is the size and profusion of blooms. I've yet to see a double x hybridus produce so large and so many flowers on a single, young plant. It is extremely robust. And the single spotted yellow ('Goldfinch') is an enchanting flower. It is difficult to consistently produce a highly spotted form and the maroon coloring against the butter yellow is a stunning accent to the double red. Much of the expense associated with these new introduction is related to their production by tissue culture, which has not been done successfully to any extent with x hybridus before and which guarantees consistant form and coloring.

And FWIW, we west coasters/neighbors of the original Heronswood refuse to apply that name to anything currently existing in Pennsylvania - that is Burpeewood and can't hold a candle to the original. And if any one is interested in preserving the original, unreproduceable Heronswood garden, I'd encourage them to contribute to the Pacific Northwest Horticultural Conservancy, the local non-profit organization that is negotiating to purchase the nursery property and preserve it as a botanical garden and teaching facility. It was referred to recently in another thread or access it through weloveplants.org.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dan's website

Thanks gardengal for some further insight into the hellebores. It is certainly possible that some of the plants were past their prime, and as you and I know the colors become greener and muddier as they age. However, I did see the Kingston doubles there with the flowers looking fresh inside, and they did not look very distinguished to me -- I would never have bought one in bloom, at 40-50 a pop. They did not have clear colors at all, and there were a lot of them too. They all looked the same. So people can decide on their own. I can tell you that the kind of doubles and anemones available at Pine Knot (though now not till next year probably) is vastly superior. At the Philly flower show, they did not have any of the Goldfinch plants at all. And I have it from good inside sources (from Pine Knot, Plant Delights) who have apparently communicated with Dan about this said that the none of these hellebores were from Heronswood's formerly great breeding program. Of course, they don't have to be -- it's Burpee's nursery now, and they can get and propagate plants from anywhere they want.

I still think it is false advertising to have a beautiful big display bowl of hybrids in the front of the display, and imply (without specifically stating so...) that those are the plants for sale. There were picotees, doubles, anemones, etc. Those WEREN'T the plants they were selling.

Eric is right too that the old Heronswood did decrease some of their offerings in response to public demand. Eric and I share an affection for fall gardens and asters, I know, and in the later years Heronswood only carried about 20-30 asters (instead of the 50-60 at peak). I even asked Dan about that once at a meeting I attended where he was speaking, and he commented that asters were not especially good sellers. Even the old Heronswood was a business, and responded to some extent to what people did and didn't buy. STILL, though, at the end Heronswood still had 1000s of plants in their catalog. I for one still mourned the passing, no matter what they did to their offereings in the past year. And Burpee is offering only the teeniest fraction of what was at Heronswood.

Gardengal, I have to say that I LIKE the name "Burpeewood" -- seems very appropriate.

$40-50 a pop? Yowzer!! They obviously MUST think they're something special :-) To be perfectly honest, I like 'em and I wouldn't pay that much, either. We have them priced much more reasonably at my nursery and I've even got them on sale at the moment - if you were closer I'd make you a very good deal :-)

Yay! for seconding the name "Burpeewood" and I'm with you fellers on the aster issue--for me, too, that was Heronswood at its most remarkable. Who can we get to start an aster nursery?

The 'Kingston Cardinal' that "Burpeewood" (emphasis mine) was offering at The Flower Show are the same as the one's they offer in their catalog and as far as I can tell, are the same plants that Heronswood introduced and offered a few years ago. I have several from both sources. They may not be the best deep pinks that Dan had in his breeding program, but they are the ones he was selling.
No, I didn't pay 50 bucks per, from either source. I am a frugal gardener (a/k/a cheapskate). I was told by the employees at their vendor booth that those large containers were for display and if I just had to take one home that day, the price was $50, But if I waited until late afternoon on closing day, they would make me an offer I couldn't refuse. Wasn't really interested, since I already had a dozen of them.
Rb

I am trusting that the three I bought at the show are as labeled...as I do with any nursery I buy from. They are Kingston Cardinal, Snow Bunting and Goldfinch. They appear to be healthy plants, one of which was blooming. Snow Bunting may be mundane to you, but out of 20+ Hellebores, I do not have a pure white one (strangely)...it wouldn't have been my first choice, but since it was 3 for $45...it was certainly worth the extra $5.

I would also like to point out that I have heard the Tylers speak (last year at Lewis Ginter) and Barry Glick recently (at Homestead Gardens). Both or all, showed many pictures of stunning hellebores...none of which are readily available at this time. As Mr. Glick said, the tissue culturing is going very slowly. So, I think it is a bit harsh to be critical of a display of blooms (which was lovely)...at least you could see the actual blooms instead of slides. Also, I found everything clearly marked...

I have some hellebores from the Pine Knot Strain. I have found that I most happy with ones that I have chosen in bloom (and they weren't cheap either)...just getting the Pine Knot Strain doesn't necessarily mean it will be something especially wonderful. I have two picotee hellebores and paid a tidy sum for them. I am also trying a few of Barry Glick's. My point is...if you want a truly special hellebore...whoever you buy it from...is going to charge the going rate.

I say we, as consumers, are fortunate to have choices.

If anyone is interested, there's a picture of part of the Heronswood Philadelphia Flower Show display on my blog.

Link below

Here is a link that might be useful: Hellebore Blooms

Pine Knot "strain" plants are not the same as the plants one gets, in bloom, from Pine Knot nursery. The pine knot strain plants that one gets from Wayside or any other place are open pollinated seed that originated first from the nursery. In general, for those who don't know hellebore, every individual hybrid not produced from tissue culture is either produced from random open pollinated seed, or if a hand pollinated cross, usually from some select stock plants at that nursery that the breeder thought might make an effective hybrid. The quality of those plants depends directly on the stock parents, and often those nurseries like Pine Knot sell plants *in bloom* that people select on open days at the nursery or are selected by the nursery to respond to a request from the buyer ("I want a pale pink picotee", etc...). Though their hellebore season is winding down now (as the one in the north is FINALLY starting, despite the crappy weather -- I now have hellebores with flower buds, all over, Yeah!), they still probably have plants available for sale on line like this. The old Heronswood used to do exactly the same thing, I went out there twice and the range of wonderful hybrids was amazing -- nothing like the plants that were for sale as Heronswood Hybrids now. Anyway, I would say from personal experience getting and seeing the plants and knowing the Tylers personally and knowing the Ashwood (England) immediate background of the stock plants, that their plants are worthwhile.

Yes, it is good that we as consumers have choices. To each his or her own. 'Nuf said...

Maybe. If one gets the last word...lol! Just kidding. I bought some of my "Pine Knot Strain" from the The Great Big Greenhouse in Richmond, VA which the Tylers told me in person before their lecture that they had delivered the night before.

The ones of Barry Glick's that I bought, he had brought with him to the lecture...

(not from Wayside, just for the record)

Here's a link to a picture of my Heronswood pink double that I bought at the original Heronswood site...which I guess makes it okay to some...but since it was after the sale, probably not to others...siill, it is a beautiful hellebore. It took two years to bloom, btw.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pink Double Hellebore

Well, GG, I would certainly agree that is a LOVELY apple blossom pink. I certainly did not see any plants like that at the Philly flower show where Burpeewood was only selling the (to me, mauve...) doubles. Yes, the original Heronswood had gorgeous hellebores. I bought quite a few from them too.

OK I really will shut up about this. People should buy plants where they want and use their own judgement...

Shadygrove - let me know if anyone starts an aster nursery. I have a great little hybrid thing that popped up in my garden, but I don't think I can get it commercially propagated because there is so little interest in asters. I didn't start out planning to be an aster collector, it just turned out that way!

shadygrove and entling, if anyone does start up an Aster nursery please let me know, especially if they will export to Canada. It's a shame when plants go out of favor, for whatever reason. Some of them are lost to us for ever, what a pity. I've been collecting Asters for quite awhile now, some of the old varieties are very hard to find.
I finally imported some from England, they had to be shipped bare roots, there was a small time frame when this could be done. In England they keep national collections of many perennials, very smart people, I'd say. Here is a link to the place where I bought many of the varieties I grow .

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Here is a link that might be useful: Old Court Nurseries

Thanks, david 5311! I really do love it...and it began my quest for more doubles...not realizing how hard that was going to be (I realize now).

It was one of only maybe two or three pots there, btw...the labels were jumbled and I wasn't confident, to tell the truth, that it was what it said it was! I decided to take a chance...and I'm glad I did. Occasionally, we get lucky!

The thing is...I was perfectly happy with my other hellebores...until this double started...lol! I found an online place where you could look up hellebores (and other perennials..I guess a wholesaler?)...and there was/is this double white...not quite this type of double, if you know what I mean, not as many petals, but still neat and interesting. Anyway, I put in my zipcode and have now called all the nurseries listed in my area that are supposed to have it...none do...and none have heard of it...so much for that.

I like that idea of national collections, too. Although I can't begin to think of how it could be done in a country as vast as ours. But, I'm sure there are great minds who can! Also, who really owns them? Well, just curious.

Enjoyed the chat! Got snow here last night but by now, it has mostly gone away. Just when we think winter is done! March, always a tricky month!

gonegardening, In England they have The National Council for the Conservation of Plants & Gardens, www.nccpg.com if you want to check it out.

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gonegardening, perhaps the white double you are looking for is Helleborus x hybridus 'Mrs. Betty Ranicar'? Many online sources carry it, including Plant Delights. But you should be aware that this named form is not clonally produced so can be quite variable depending on who has done the propagation.

Here is a link that might be useful: double white hellebore

Aftermidnight -- thanks for the link, nice stuff. Too bad I have a phytosanitary certificate phobia!

Aftermidnight, thanks for the swell link to Old Court. I note that Picton's book on asters of a few years ago, now out of print, is selling for over $75 on Amazon. com. Yikes!

Hmmmm...an aster nursery. What a great idea for someone willing to lose their shirt for their art....

Shadygrove, Paul Picton's book on Aster's was responsible for my importing Asters from him. A very nice man to deal with. For any Aster lover, his book is a must. If I didn't already have it I would gladly pay $75 or even more for it, hopefully they will do a reprint.

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Thanks gardengal48! I will go on a hunt for it since...you snooze, you lose...Plant Delights is sold out.

The one I was looking for is called Winter Dreams White Elegance...but it doesn't look like I'm going to find it.

Thanks aftermidnight, I will check that out!