spedigrees: Limestone varies in magnesium content. If you go to your local agricultural store--I am not sure what you have up there--and ask for “high mag limestone“--crushed or pulverized--they should be able to direct you. The analysis is always posted on the bag. Dolomitic limestone is generally “high-mag,” but perhaps other types of limestone have a high magnesium content. Our soils here in the northern Shenandoah Valley are very high in magnesium, and high mag limestone underlies a good portion of our soils, and high mag limestone is readily available. And, almost all the NS in this area look very nice, in spite of our hot, dry climate. As for soil acidity--that should not be a problem for Norway spruce, unless the soil is extremely acidic, maybe in the low 4’s. At my timberland, where the soils are a bit below 5, Norway spruce does very well. I am not sure what an optimum pH would be, and it would probably vary with soil type. Maybe somewhere in the 5.5 range is "safe." As for magnesium for Norway spruce--this has been fairly well documented. I titled my original post “a hypothesis,” but there is substantial evidence. A site factors study done at SUNY Syracuse some years ago now, noted that “at least 75 kg per hectare” is needed for good NS growth. Studies in Europe, where there has been extensive decline in NS forests, has shown that the acid rain causes a reduction in the availability of magnesium, and supplementing magnesium often solves the problem. And, I have made some personal observations--not scientific, and without all the facts--that magnesium supplementation can make a dramatic difference. But, the main effect of magnesium may not be in height growth, but in the fullness, density, and lushness of the foliage. I have seen many poor looking, thin foliaged NS trees growing reasonably fast in height. Also, the thin foliage on some Norway spruce trees has causes other than a lack of an optimum supply of magnesium. And, I know, some of that is genetic, and not correctable. As for your experiment: Yes, 5 years should be long enough to show some results, but no sooner. The limestone has to dissolve into the soil, get down to the roots, and, because NS hold their needles for several years, the "thickening" of the foliage may not be vis1ble for several years. BUT, and this is a big "but," the effect may not really show up on very young trees. It may help the growth rate, but as for foliage density, that is never really noticeable until trees are somewhat older and larger--maybe not until they are 20 feet tall or more will any difference be really clear. As for the growth rate: white pine usually starts growing faster than NS. How old are your trees? How tall? NS trees don't begin to grow fast until they are about 4.5 feet high, and that could be only after 6 to 8 years. At that point, they should "take off." On the best soils, and in the right climate, an average of 28 inches is possible, with some years the new shoots elongating up to 4 feet or more. But growth averaging 20 to 24 inches is good for many sites. Norway spruce and white pine, assuming equally good strains, should grow equally well over the first 50 years. The white pine up to about 18 years should outgrow the NS, but after that NS should catch up a bit. After 50 years NS should outgrow the white pine for some years. SUNY Syracuse did a growth curves study for NS, and found that for the first 60 years--after the trees reach 4.5 feet in height, there is no "curve" as such, but a straight line. White pine growth curves bend sharply over to the right after the first 18 years or so, and at 50 years the growth averages about 1 foot, while at the same age, NS trees can still be growing 28 inches per year. But this rate does begin to decline not too long after the 60-year mark. On the best sites both should eventually make 150 feet or more in forest stands. Open grown NS should make 120 feet or more on better sites. As for the blue spruce and magnesium, I really don't know. Tom may be right about this. --spruce

Sorry I'm late on this post but I think Serbian spruce and Norway spruce look great together. We have several of each growing at the edge of our property line, and there's no problem so far with them co-existing. They are roughly 20-25 feet tall at this point. The NS are growing slightly faster but the SS are a very nice compliment to them. Just leave quite a bit of space since the NS will grow much wider than the SS. HTH, Dave

Justine: I can see that you are really having a hard time making a decision regarding your tree--and your grass. I see the reasons for your difficulty. You love the grass and you love the tree. But the tree has had some severe damage, and perhaps its survival is in doubt. So, you are reluctant to remove the grass, and then have the tree die, or at least not recover to be the beautiful tree you want it to be. You could end up losing both the tree and the grass. Not good! But here is the bottom line--or lines--sorry. If you want to do everything you can to help the tree recover, you have to get rid of all the grass and almost all the extra soil for a distance of something like 15 or 20 feet in all directions. Then you sould mulch and make sure the tree is watered during any real dry spells. And, as for the top of the tree--if it looks really ugly up there, have the arborist come and see if there is some split or something that will make it difficult for any new growth the tree makes to replace the top to have a firm foundation on sound wood. Maybe a clean cut at the top is better than some really ugly split top. If you decide to do that, later I could give some instructions for how to at least retard any rot that may want to get started in the broken/cut top. But as for the grass--if you leave the tree the grass will begin to look worse and worse over time--it will not get enough sun, and the roots of the tree may rob it of the moisture it needs unless you are comitted to watering it very regularly from now on, etc. etc. I find it hard to see how you can have both the grass and the tree. So I think you have to make a decision about what you want. Of course if you keep the tree and do what you can to help it grow the best, including removing the grass you love, it may die anyway as a result of the injury and from having the extra soil around it for too long. If you leave the tree and the grass, the grass, and the tree may both die on their own. So what to do? If the tree were the only real important thing, you should get rid of all the grass and soil from around the tree ASAP, mulch, and have the arborist look at the top and see what's there. Maybe after the tree recovers from the extra soil for a year or two, some careful fertilizing and maybe some regular watering. The tree can be really "babied" and it may respond. Or it may not. The other option is to cut the tree down and if you really love NS have another one or more planted. If you decide on that course of action, let me know and maybe and I can offer some useful advice about how to select a new tree and how to plant and care fot it, etc. If you are young, and plan to stay in that house for a long time, you may enjoy watching your new Norway spruce tree(s) grow. Following your present course could leave you with no tree and no grass after five years or so. Or the tree could do OK in spite of the extra soil and the broken top--NS are tough, resilient critters. And maybe you can nurse the grass to keep it looking OK in spite of the shade, etc. There are a lot of decisions in life that are murky--this one is plenty "murky," but fortunately the stakes are not as high as many decisions we need to make in other kinds of situations. I know I am not helping you make any decisions here, but at least I can help you see what your choices are and what the uncertainties are. If you have any questions I will be happy to offer any additional information/advice I can. --Spruce

I am a big fan of Norway spruce and its wide adaptability, but based on what I have seen so far, which I admit is not very much, I can't really recommend it for the southeast. Here in Northern VA it does really wonderfully, even in the hotter and drier places. One of the best specimens I know is in Upper Marlboro MD. But driving sough through VA I notice fewer and fewer nice ones, and no really great ones by the time I get to Charlottesville, VA. I have seen some OK trees in Asheville, NC, in the mountains, but driving south east to places like Savannah, I don't remember seeing many, if any. But there are places in the north, such as in parts of the Finger Lakes region of NY where I don't see many nice ones. I think it is sometimes a soil nutrients issue, but I am not sure what. Perhaps magnesium, but I am only guessing. Anyway, there is no harm in trying some. I have posted elsewhere about the seen source/strain issue. In any case, you have the native pines, and of course baldcypress. I usually don't like to plant trees in places where they are not really fully suited. I would rather have a glorious loblolly pine than a poor NS. --Spruce