Maureen I'm in an entirely different climate than you (I think) but I only prune Marie Pavie to shape and remove dead wood.
I haven't pruned SdlM since it didn't seem to need it and was pretty young.
Others may differ but I think teas should be pruned only lightly or not at all unless they're crowded or being crowded.
I have a Tamora that's about 5x5 feet and I couldn't get up enough nerve to attack those vicious thorns (LOL). I just shaped it.
Can't tell much about the pruning but here's a picture taken today of Marie Pavie that was pruned in February. It's about 4 1/2 feet tall and four years old.
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Hamp

Hamp--my your MP is a gorgeous rose. She looks perfectly pruned to me. Is she really only 4 1/2 feet tall? From the picture she looks much larger.

Hi Maureen,

I would suggest springing for the David Stone DVD on pruning shrubs that Ashdown sells. It should answer all of your questions and give you confidence to tackle the job.

Cheers,
Michelle

How old is your Tea, and why are you pruning it? IOW, what is your objective?

Until it outgrows its space, there is not need at all to prune a Tea and especially no need to prune it like a HT. That is exactly the wrong thing to do. Teas are derived from semi-climbing ancestors that do not respond to cane-shortening in the same way roses bred from Old Europeans --Gallicas, Damasks.

Remove only what the curator of the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden calls "the 3 D's": damaged, diseased and distracting wood. Do not hack the canes back to some random height or circumference. Leave as much wood as you can.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pruning Teas

When we started growing Tea Roses, no one told us they shouldn't be pruned like Hybrid Teas. Some of them, I don't know how they survived our less-than-tender attentions. Some DIDN'T survive!
Take Berndoodle's advice. And Hamp's.
The same goes for a Poly-Tea, such as Marie Pavie.
In our garden now, such roses are deadheaded here the way my grandmother taught me to do it: Snapping the dead-heads off at the abcission point. There's no need to cut off any growth that is living and healthy.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/JeriJennings/ABCISSIONCOLLAGE.jpg

That's about all they get in the way of "pruning," as well.

Jeri

And that Marie has the best stinky about her....

With the Austin's, I have always followed the instructions which came with the first DA's I purchased from Heirloom, which is to do very little pruning, just shape it up a bit. I have had a gardener whack them way back by mistake, and they were slow to recover.

Priscilla

It seems that whenever a question about pruning comes up, those that carry it out are accused of 'hacking' and cutting OGR's in the same manner as HT's, when of course there are many stages - and much to be learned - between that and doing nothing.

I know of no European books or pruning manuals that have advocated pruning OGR's as HT's. I'm afraid I have read few American books, and maybe the situation there has been different.

The workshops my boss did at Ashdown, and the DVD that was made from them, describe how we create the garden at Mottisfont, and the pruning methods - in a very general form - that we use.

Of course we don't expect people to want their gardens or their roses to look like Mottisfont - there is no reason why they should. But if some found it a useful explanation then it has served its purpose.

So in answer to your pruning questions I might suggest that some such techniques are in fact required in areas where conditions are not so benign as those in California and some of the Southern states - but even then it would be completely wrong to force our opinions on others. One of the joys of gardening is learning how things are best done in your own garden and developing your own style - so take people's opinions but remember they are only opinions. And to make beautiful gardens out of the annual devastation that greets some of us coming out of each Winter is surely a worthy effort.

Best wishes
Jon

Well said, John.

Olga, who prunes her Austins and Teas :)

What's really needed is a book or DVD explaining how to prune roses in the north, after massive winterkill!

Of course we want our gardens to look like Mottisfont :)

Great link though. I have 3 young teas and will try to follow the advice as much as I can, until they get over my head (which will not take too long).

I made the mistake of pruning graham thomas too deeply and the following spring time, it didn't do too well and died.

This time, I'm not pruning My Heritage rose, although it looks a bit lax at the moment.

Question: is it normal for the leaves to turn yellow and die out during autumn? I was walking pass some houses, and what i've noticed with matured roses are they don't have any leaves growing at the base of the canes. How do I prevent this from happening to my own rose? I prefer to have a rose bush like the one shown in Hamp's photo.

Thank you Jon, that is indeed well said. In my garden, I find that pruning does not cause pouting, death or non-blooming roses(as long as you don't cut them back to nubs). Of course, we have never pruned our roses like HT's and we live in a totally different climate than California. Maybe that is the difference. The bottom line is that you need to do what works in your own specific climate and your garden.

Cass, thank you for the link. Those are beautifully pruned and shaped.

Carol
who would love for her garden to look like Mottisfont.

I absolutely love to read this type of thread. I feel the more I garden the less I know and the more I need to learn. One of the things that I have learned is that each bush is a separate entity and when I prune I must be guided by what the bush is telling me. I look for deadwood, crossover canes and my general idea of shape.
Not only are my growing conditions different from say Luanne's who lives only 10 miles away, they are way different from CarolFM's or Jackie's who bothlives 100s of miles away and have very different climate challenges. I prune my Lady Hillingdon and Marie D'Orleans because they are in my front garden near where people pass by. They both do fine and respond well.

And all that said, I almost always agree with the knowledge that Jon has to share. He has been gardening far longer than I have and although his growing conditions are far different than mine, his garden (not Mottisfont) is a sight to behold and if I were a painter and there was no Monet, there would be one after seeing his garden. Color, texture and beauty blend in harmony like an impressionist painting.

And I'll leave you with thought, sometimes it is best to learn by doing, making mistakes and improving on that knowledge from year to year. The beauty of this forum is by asking for advice and leaning on what works for you.

Carol

Now that I've said all that, I do feel that the David Stone DVD is worth the investment.

Brava, Cass!

Maureen, I have no photos to post but wanted to give you my advice on Souv de Pierre Notting (which I still want!).

In our climate teas and chinas have 2 quirks: they break dormancy much later than the Austins and OGR's, and they need to retain as much of their size as possible to help survive winters. So the rules are:

1. Wait. I won't prune my teas until at the earliest the third week in April (this year I plan to do it the weekend of the 21st). This is so you can see clearly where new growth is - a cane that might "look" dead and brown may be perfectly healthy, you would be surprised, and you don't want to cut off something by jumping the gun that could have been blooms!

2. When you prune, cut just beyond the last new shoot on each cane, to preserve all new growth possible. You may find it necessary to go back and reprune if something looked OK the first time but turned out to be dead. Better to leave it for a week than be sorry.

3. After they're 3 years old you can start thinking about shape - but again this is a general shaping, not a drastic overhaul.

Plants of Souv de la Mal (both own-root and grafted) have been completely winter-killed 2 years in a row, so this rose doesn't get another chance in my garden. But that tells me that in our climate it should be treated more like a tea than a bourbon - eg prune minimally.

Tamora is one of the twiggy Austins, and I find it gets too messy if not pruned. I would suggest you take off about 1/3 to 1/2 of the height and get rid of the thinnest canes - they will flop over anyway when in bloom, and you would be making more room for sturdy canes to develop. For reference, I prune most of my Austins down to 15 inches or less for the floppy growers like Charles Darwin and Teasing Georgia (may 8 inches?). You would be surprised how many new basals I have already on Charles Darwin.

Good luck.

George

The question at the beginning about Pat Austin is similar to one I asked earlier this year and I found at least two other Pat Austins in other parts of the country shared the red speckled canes that mine has.
Mine also had some cankers starting on some of the upper cane junctions, and this year I cut them back below those red-purple halos. Last year, when I didn't the canes abandoned the areas above the halos in midsummer (plant history can repeat until we get it right).

Regarding 'Tamora'--I just take out whatever is too twiggy or is dead, then reduce size a bit. Here's Mary Rose, which has similar growth habit, just on a bigger scale.

Before:
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After:
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Today:
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Hoovb - that is a marvelously instructive set of photos that you posted. (Although my Mary Rose is lucky to emerge from winter with a foot of green cane! I have serious envy, here.)

Jon - add another vote here for wanting to have a garden that looks like Mottisfont!

Veilchen - actually, pruning a la' the David Stone video is very applicable for the north on cane hardy roses. I have many, many roses that will benefit from that technique both OGR and modern (i.e. Explorers.) OTOH, it's easy to prune the more tender roses. Cut back to live cane, shape if possible and there you go. There's usually not much left alive to work with, so it leaves you with fewer agonizing decisions to make! ;-)

AC

I have a Mary Rose which is in it's 3rd year, and it was my first post-David Stone victim. I pruned it pretty hard, but left more canes and left the canes higher than I would HTs. It was doing great, and since I pruned it so early (December when it was warm) it was big and round and full of buds. Then came the big freeze. Oh well. Some of the inside buds look ok, and the basic shape is still there.

That Mary Rose is just one of a parade of the most amazing roses in a spectacularly beautiful private garden. Hoovb rules!!

Jerome

This is a good thread. And it's making me feel a little better about my rudimentary pruning skills. I'm sure an expert could pick it apart, but I think this one at least looks better than it did before I pruned it. :) This is a mystery HT that came with the house. (True red, midsize blooms with a pretty good fragrance -- I will be looking for an ID once it blooms.)

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Oh my, where have I been?? I just came to see if I have any responses and there are 21 --- you all are the best!

I'm off to do the dishes (a huge sinkful plus) then I'll be back to read this.

I mentioned this earlier this year so excuse the repeat.
For those with year round growth and large OGRs
If you can find a blindspot it makes it so much easier to make a V shape wedge[think of a pie with one piece missing].
That way you can thin out the interior from the inside.When you are talking ten to fifteen feet in diameter its tough .
As far as pruning a tea or china ,I do it the same way I do my big hts-I long stem them to different lengths to keep them at a size I want with out looking just pruned.

I love this forum and all of you to learn from. Jon, you are my favorite teacher, thanks to you I have so much fun braiding and weaving canes. I love to prune but my question is how much damage can the deer inflict on my precious roses? We lost trying to keep them in the pasture last fall and winter, then as the roses were recovering this spring, during Hubby's grading project, they found a way back in the front and ate so much of the new growth and abundant buds. I had several extra large Climbing roses with very long canes already pegged, which delighted the deer. Is there anything I can do to help them recover, Again?

I dunno after seeing all the great pruning here if I am doing anything right although I did try to pay attention to David, but then I got out there in the garden and realizing, there were about 300 roses and only two hands, I got tired and chopped, but my Marie Pavie looks like Hamps, but Mary Rose --- nope, does not look like Hoov's but I think that is because Devoniensis ate it overwinter.

Now I will be embarrassed to post pictures after seeing all these lovelies.

Well I had such a nice time reading all of this today. I decided that I'm going to try different things on some of my roses to see what works best for me. I really appreciate everys tips and suggestions and opinions. This is such a great forum. And special thanks to Hamp, Hoovb and Nickelsmumz for sharing the pics with us.

Happy rose growing,
Maureen

Can the pruning by hungry deer kill climbers & ramblers? Could I actually kill a rose with pruning? I had one I tried to kill cutting to the ground and it just comes back, thankfully I learn from Jon how to weave the canes into a nice managable plant we like now, but cutting to the ground seemed to only renew it again and again.

Did anyone save Jon's advice re weaving? Would love to see this but can't find it in "search." Thanks so much for any help on this.

Cat

BTW -- does the search function even work? Or do I just not know how to use it?

Wow! Don't pictures like Hamp's make you think twice when reading vendor's descriptions of "small" roses like 'Marie Pavie'? ("great for a pot")

Oldblush, that is the largest Marie Pavie I have ever seen.