We've had some really beautiful days, but I know from experience it's too early to do the clean up. Like Ken mentioned, the frost/freezes, plus it's not unusual to get snowstorms in March and early April here. As for pruning shrubs, I do Spring blooming ones after they bloom. I do prune the dead or damaged branches late March to mid April. Just depends on the weather. The summer blooming ones I wait until I see the leaf buds starting to form...usually sometime in April.

Kat

Thanks everyone. It seems as though it's 50-50 from Zone 5-ers. Being a fan of Spring cleanup vs Fall, I'm always anxious to get out there and clear the ground. The grasses are already peeking up through the dead leaves. And, I have a garden that I did some Lasagna layering in the Fall....hoping for some decent soil as a result...and fewer weeds. Don't know exactly what to expect, but am excited.

Gonative - good to know about the shrubs and early pruning.
Gardengal, in this zone 5, you just never know the weather, but when it's nice outside, you just hear the garden calling your name.

As it ended up, my husband decided to rake the grass and we left the winter cover on the plants...for now :)

I'm not at all sure what frosts or freezes have to do with cleaning up. Lord knows, there's plenty of frosts and freezes in my zone 8 well into March, usually later. It was in the upper 20's early yesterday morning and we had snow in mid April last year. And I've been pruning, cleaning up and transplanting for the past 6 weeks or so.

Since this is the Perennial forum, I'm going to assume we are referring to the clean up of perennial beds and attention to whatever hardy perennials, grasses, small shrubs, etc. might reside in the those same beds. These are frost hardy plants - you could just have easily done the clean up in late fall (as many folks do) and they would be in exactly the same condition as if you were to do that now. Again, these are frost hardy plants. And it is far better to move shrubs when they are still in dormancy than if they were already starting to push serious growth but if given enough care to the process, you can do it any time. Pruning is even less calendar or temperature sensitive - it should be done according to specifics of the shrub, its bloom season and whether it blooms on old or new wood.

Excuse me if I am missing something significant here (and I don't think I am!) but when we are referring to plants hardy for your zone - perennials, grasses, shrubs - who cares about frosts? Not the dang plants! The only concern is with working the soil too soon....if it is too wet or still frozen. Or of course if you are still under deep snow cover. But if not, there is no reason why one cannot do any kind of hardy plant clean up, transplanting, dividing, even planting of new hardy plant material that is fully acclimated to outdoors (not greenhouse grown). Just stay away from planting annuals (other than seeds) or cold sensitive or tender perennials until temperatures are appropriate and you'll be fine.

I don't know what frost or freeze or snow has to do with clean up either. My soil is fast draining and never muddy so that's not a problem. I've been cleaning up--cutting back grasses, dividing/transplanting perennials, pruning,etc, since late Feb. We've had many nights near 20 degrees. Everything is doing great--peonies coming up, aconitums up, Baptisias showing, geraniums and pardancandas ditto, etc.

And I've been doing this for years--had a plant giveaway last Sat--and the dug bare root plants were in the barn two 20 degree nights.

Get going as soon as you can. Any moving of shrubs should definitely be done when they are dormant and the division or moving of perennials will be much more successful the longer they have to settle in before it gets hot.

Gardengal and Laceyvail....this is what I truly love about this forum. I can almost hear your voices along with your notes. I thought you weren't supposed to remove all the dried leaves and whatever that is covering your gardens, until a continued period of warmer weather. It's interesting to hear the positives for moving forward earlier...at least regarding the clean-up stage.

Would you qualify dormancy? If a shrub has some small buds on it, does that mean it is out of dormancy?

i think you are missing something gal ...

in fall.. plants harden off to become completely dormant ...

natures way you might say ....

but if you could magically time warp a plant in july to winter... you would be in trouble.. because of the new lush vegetative growth ..not being accustomed to winter.. regardless if the plant is zone hardy the whole time ...

my biggest experience is hosta ... fully zone appropriate ... but if you uncover the black soil.. 2 months before your last frost freeze date.. on sunny days.. your soil can warm incredibly .... on something like a hosta .... you are going to be in big trouble.. if they start producing lush vegetative growth and a HARD FORST or freeze comes along ... basically the water in the leaves will freeze and explode the cell walls .. and the next afternoon you will have a pile of gelatinous goo that will not recover ... though in a few months.. dormant buds will allow the hosta to come back .. but in a reduced size ...

on other perennials.. you have properly hardened off leaves ... that took the winter.. a lot severely damaged in my zone ... which eventually get removed in this zone ... but the same.. if they start into lush summer growth to early in spring .. they too will be severely injured ...

most plants can handle the first set back ... but the second time it happens the same spring.. you will start having real problems.. and frankly.. if it happens a third time ... well that darn plant is just going to die ...

lets just say .. if a plant releases buds for spring growth.. the plant better have dormant buds in the ready should the primary fail ... but there might be a limit to how many dormant buds are available .. in a sever spring ...

we all want to get going super fast after the dreariness of winter... but the longer you can hold properly hardened off plants in the suspended animation of dormancy ... and the closer you can get toward your last frost/freeze date.. the better off your garden will be ... and that is probably the key statement in my thesis ...

so leaving the mulch you protected them with for winter.. longer into spring .... keeps the soil temps down.. keeping the plants in dormancy longer.. so as to close the window of vulnerability to frost freeze ...

on top of all this.. if a plant is in a growth cycle.. and the roots refreeze .. or the soil hits a special dire temp.. you can get crown rots and root rots ....

perhaps you are thinking of light frost in your zone 8 ... heck.. we could hit the teens through the end of april ... perhaps unusual.. but always possible ...

personally .. IMHO .... snow is irrelevant.. its just a source of water.. and in and of itself... will not harm most plants... since late snow dumps usually disappear within hours or a day or two ... it would be the temps during that period ... that are the concern...

doing cleanup of trash.. branches ... whatever is OK with me... but never start pulling back your mulch too early ... ONLY do that if you fear anaerobic problems... in other words.. your mulch creates an airtight mat.. which doesnt allow air to the plant ... such mulch would smell like a swamp... or a dirty diaper ... if you ever raked the leaves out of a corner.. and found the grass nearly dead.. you have seen what i am talking about ... in such circumstance.. you would move just enough.. to make sure the plant gets some air.. while leaving enough to insure the soil stays cold ...

make sense gal.. or should i try again?????

ken

Are we talking about removing the smother love? Because now you are talking about an artificial, self-imposed problem. Hardy perennials don't need winter mulch. So if you don't put it on the first place, you don't have to worry about getting the plants out of sync, and when to pull it off. We will also not mention that four letter word, VOLE.

I've cleaned up 2 garden beds and done some raking so far. Clean up means cutting down the perennial foliage, pulling up annuals (if they're not frozen in the ground still), picking up sticks, trimming the shrubs a little (very little if the shrubs are small). I've raked out some debris, but I'm leaving most of the leaves in the garden beds this year. We sometimes have a dry spell in the Spring, and the leaves will help retain moisture. March has been quite dry so far here in the Boston area.

A bit of perennial foliage has stayed green under the leaves and snow all winter. Freezing temps at night aren't going to harm the plants at this point, but the green foliage is turning kinda purply.

I've got several more beds to go - think I have enough at this point, because the cleanup part isn't much fun...need to cut down the grasses. Need to rake up sticks in the lawn and spread some lime, and other yard cleanup.

I'm doing it earlier than usual, I think, although I recall that DH did it with a leaf blower last year right when the snow melted for good. This year, I cleaned out one bed last weekend, and had to wait til this weekend to do the others since the snow wasn't gone yet, or it wasn't drained well enough to rake without raking mud.

I know I'm pushing the envelope, but I'm ok with it. I couldn't stand the matted down mess of leaves in the gardens, and I could very nearly hear the "ahhhhh!" of plants as I raked it all away. If something dies off between now & later, I'll know not to do it this early next year, but I'm a winter-sower, so I've got PLENTY to fill the beds with in the event that I screwed up.

A lot of the fun of my personal gardening is how different my beds look EVERY year because I move stuff around in the fall, and put in different things in all my spots every year. The only things that are 'permanent' are the shrubbies and the daylilies. So come what may, I'll replace anything that dies off from my impatience.

Oh, and I lobbed off my butterfly bush this weekend, too. I don't think that is an issue in the slightest.

I was just ITCHING to get in the gardens this year for some reason. As soon as the snow melted, out I went.

You better try again, Ken :-) I've been doing this for a very long time and while I agree zone 8 is not zone 5, I don't exactly live in the tropics. It gets cold here too and doesn't warm up significantly until mid May. In fact warm season crops like tomatoes, etc. are not suggested to be planted out here until June.

But we are referring to hardy plants in this discussion and as such, they are not nearly as susceptible to temperature fluctuations, both air and soil, as are tender, non-hardy plants. Especially those that are already well established in the ground. Plants have genetic clocks that are triggered by day length and increasing temperatures - they do not begin serious growth until the time and conditions are correct for them to do so. I dunno where you're getting the time warp thing - you are not speeding up the growing process by cleaning up. You are just....cleaning up! Cleaning up - removing old stems and dead foliage, cutting back, weeding, etc. - all can be done AT ANY TIME during the winter and into early spring and doing so does not expose the plants to greater stress than if one were to wait until "last frost" - heck, if I waited that long, half my garden would be up and blooming! Last frost here is towards the end of April! I dug and divided hostas a couple of weeks ago - I can't wait around for last frost :-)

And from the other responses that are coming in from zone 5 gardeners, I think maybe you are being overly cautious and missing an opportune time to get some serious gardening work done.

btw, pulling back heavy mulch covers in early spring - which it is NOW - in colder climates allows the soil to warm and that is exactly what you want it to do. Once the soil warms, root growth and development begins and the better and more active the root system, the tougher and more durable the plant.

My 2 cents: I have done both, and it might depend on what you have. I have no (what-I-consider-to-be) vulnerable plants in the front. That has been cleared off and raked, shrubs and dead stems trimmed.

In the back, on the other hand, I have semi-evergreen daylilies. They stay a little bit green under the mulch (leaves and bark) all winter. The dormant daylilies show nothing alive above the ground and are just sprouting up now. If I let the semi-evergreens sprout new leaves now, a cold snap will frost them and they may take half the summer to recover. Bloom will be impacted. This is what has happened before, so now I dont uncover them until much later. I did cut off the dead stems and remove debris.

Ditto the hostas. They will keep their blanket for now.

When the weather moderates, I just get out there and start my spring stuff--usually the last couple weeks of March. Clean out my beds, move things around when the soil isn't frozen, start pruning, etc. I don't winter-protect anything, not even my roses, just let the oak leaves blow where they will, and if something dies, oh well, it wasn't meant to live here. I just don't plant out anything new that's leafing/budded out ahead of schedule until mid-April if it's hardy, May if it's tender. Haven't lost anything yet. Worst comes to worst, we get a nasty deep freeze like we had a couple years ago (2006?) in mid-April, and there's a big set-back and loss of bloom, but I didn't have anything that outright died that year. I'm just too impatient on warm days to wait and look at my ugly, messy garden, and then try to do EVERYTHING at once four weeks later (cleaning up, pruning, moving things, buying, mulching, fertilizing, etc.)--that seems unnecessary to me, and I might not find the time then anyway.

ok gal ... i will try again ...

first.. i sense some hostility ... none from me meant .. and i will presume simply passion from your side... right???

last week .... there were 3 or 4 posts from cold zone newbies ... saying the calender said its spring.. what can i plant ... always read my stuff from the point of view of trying to help newbies ...

we experienced peeps do thing we are not really supposed to do .. because we dont really care if something fails ... we will do it again.. and again.. until we succeed .... as you note.. we have been doing this for years.. and we get away with things that perhaps technically we shouldnt ...

but for those less experienced .. err towards doing things a little later .. not june or july .. but not march either ...

now.. a fully dormant hardy plant that is zone appropriate .. can handle winter .. and spring ... which is not a calender thing .. but based on the vagaries of mother nature ... because they are in a state of dormancy .. or moving out of dormancy ...

a fully hardy plant.. that starts growing too soon is simply no more able to handle mother nature taking two giant steps back after one giant step forward.. mother may i .. lol ... than a tender annual ...

one way.. in the colder zones.. to temper the vagaries of mother nature.. is to mulch heavily for winter ... so that the soil stays frozen or cold.. later into the spring .. so that the plants stay dormant longer.. and you avoid the heartbreak of frost freeze failure ...

if you get one or two weirdo days.. and get the fever .. and expose the soil to warming .... though you are happy as heck to be out there.. you can simply do more damage to your plants.. than the good it did for your soul to get out there ...

and yes.. there are all kinds of regional issues and problems.. like voles/vermin .. and all kinds of other things to take into consideration ... but the topic was.. when do you clean out the garden ...

i do it when everything starts naturally on its own .. i do not go out there for my own gratification ... and start exposing soil in my colder zone .. too soon .. causing growth to begin unnaturally early ... exposing otherwise hardy plants.. to grow themselves into an exposed situation.. because mother nature can be a cruel mistress ...

any better??

one good way to figure it all out for the newbie .. if a local good nursery [not the bigboxstore].. doesnt even have plants for sale ... then perhaps yours shouldnt be in an active growth phase ... when the local pros start offering perennials for sale.. that is the time when yours should just be starting to grow actively ....

it all comes down to my old maxim .. try not to kill things with too much love .. and one way to love them too much .. is to uncover and make them start growing too soon ...

the only thing worse than getting them going too fast.. would then be to throw some fertilizer on them too soon.. to double the early growth ... so they can catch even more frost or freeze.. lol ..

and if they all look like they made it through winter in z5 ... and then a week or two after a frost/freeze.. they all seem to die.. then consider mulching them better next fall .. the replacements i mean ... lol ... so that they will be better tempered next spring .... the hard part here for the newbie, is to be able to recall the hard frost some weeks back.. when the plants finally give up the ghost a month later ....

one thing you never do .. and that is give up ... though i may give up if gal continues to challenge me... lol ....

ken

Linnaea,

To answer your question - there's a couple of reasons I dormant prune deciduous shrubs (these can be of either the summer blooming or spring blooming types).

First, the very practical - I run a maintenance business, wintertime gives me added time to shape them properly. By the time a proper spring & summer roll around I'm too busy to do too much too pruning what with planting and the weeding. And with the exception of boxwood which shears nicely I'm not of school that believes in shearing shrubs but rather hand pruning instead where time allows during the warmer months.

Second reason - I typically take this time to take out crowded, damaged, or any unattractive branches on any deciduous shrub and improve it's overall shape. Also with the lack of leaves it is much easier to see the sillouette of shrub and easier to not make mistakes. In a perfect world it's nice if I can do this on an every other year basis. However, I don't trim them back - that would take out many of the blooms which form on previous year's wood. Instead, I selectively remove entire or sections of branches so that for the spring blooming shrubs like the plum or star magnolia you will still get a spring show. You can't do that if you prune too much or back too hard. The summer blooming shrubs are less affected. Note I said, deciduous, not evergreen, these you need to leave alone, you never prune them back in the winter.

As for cutting back perennials in March, again I'm looking at this from more a practical view. I have to move through a long list of garden cleanups. Most plants I install have to be tough and if it means that client gets his/her garden cut down in mid march as opposed to mid April that year the plant picks have to be sturdy enough to handle fluctuations. Only thing to watch as a few posters noted is not to be cutting back on soggy soil if it can be helped.

Only exceptions to this rule with me are roses - I leave them alone for another 3 - 4 weeks. Vines also, I prune them back according to whether it's best to prune back hard in the fall or the spring.

Oh Ken, you've been drinking the rose Kool-Aid.

First, if something dies without winter protection, it isn't hardy. This is a definition thing. Hardy plants don't need winter protection. If something the books say should be hardy consistently dies, it's the books that are wrong, not the plant.

Secondly, if you listen to what is really being said about winter protection, the problem isn't that it is keeping things cold, but that it is artificially warming things up. So there is a window in late winter, after the brutally cold temperatures are over, when it can be removed. However, if you don't get it then, the plants start growing earlier than they would otherwise, so the cold snaps can get them. They are out of sync with what the weather is doing.

So next fall, do absolutely nothing to the hostas, and let them amaze you.

I think Ken's hostas are amazing to begin with but that is different post.
Re: spring clean up- my beds overwinter untouched with piles of oak leaves on them. In couple of weeks I will clean up worst pile ups and leave rest of the leaves as mulch/ compost.
I did cut last year stems on grasses, clems and other perennials that were sticking out last week.
I am spreading compost in my garden this week and putting some fertilizer as well.
I will start planting tough perennials as columbines, primulas next week as they can handle few frosts coming our way much better when they in the soil.
I am transplanting few shrubs this week, you can do it anytime soil is workable.
I did some minor pruning last week.
As a reference- I have winter aconitums,snowdrops, crocuses and early daffs and tulips in bloom.

Interesting thread. I'm too lazy to mulch my plants for winter, so my spring cleanup is basically cutting back dead growth that I left up for "winter interest." At my old house, I had grape hyacinths in front of my lavender. I always cut back the lavender around mid-March, when the grape hyacinths started coming up (because they would be covered by the lavender). That always worked out well for me.

I actually cut back my lambs ears a while back when we had our big thaw and they looked horribly mushy. And this weekend, I cut back my achillea and sedum Autumn Joy, because I saw some new growth starting. I figure it is easier to cut back the old growth when the new growth is still pretty small and I don't accidentally chop the new growth at the same time!

Otoh, I haven't had very good luck with hostas for some reason. I had a couple go brown in August and just sort of disappear for some reason - not sure if they will come back this year or not.

I have been wondering when to move my small year-old lacecap hydrangea - probably soon???

Ken - no hostiity at all, just a strong desire to get you to understand what I am trying to convey :-) Several of the posts previous to this response (mad gallica & gonativegal) demonstrate a clear understanding. There is no compelling need to wait for a specific calendar date to do pretty much anything discussed in this thread. All these chores can be done at any time during the course of the slack time between seasons - late fall to early spring - that the weather allows the gardener the opportunity to get outside and work. Garden clean-up - rountine maintenance - is not the same as planting one's veggie garden or installing a complete new landscape and a hardy plant is a hardy plant, regardless of what time of the year it is. This is much more zone related than the subject at hand, but complete new landscapes ARE installed throughout winter where I live. Based on your opinions, these should have pretty much a 100% failure rate, since we get below freezing spells followed by warm periods followed sometimes by snow and more frosts. But guess what - they don't!! We don't try to plant petunias in January but we do plant trees, shrubs and hardy perennials and they do just fine.

I'm sorry you don't feel that way, as I think you are missing out on some golden opportunities, but that's your prerogative. I just don't think it's valid or even helpful to dissuade others from engaging in profitable gardening activity when there is no compelling reason not to do so. Average last frost dates have no bearing at all on hardy plants - they only refer to when it is considered locationally safe to plant out annuals or other cold sensitive plants. Period. :-)

This is an interesting thread indeed.
I know where my fellow 'low zoners' are comming from. We have all done something too soon in the spring and regretted it later.
The official planting date here is May 11th. Thats when you can put out the tenders. I do move some perennials in April if I have to. I plant some new things then too, but not much. I find that some nurseries do not harden the plants off when they first get them. I have been burnt several times by planting nursery items early when I think they have been hardened off. I still err on the side of caution, especially when it comes to pricy plants!

I agree with Mad_Gallica though. For many years I was worried that even the hardiest of my perennials would not come back. But for the past couple of years I have learned that not everything needs to be covered. Actually, there was very little that I covered last fall. Everything seems to be doing fine.
I agree that sometimes mulching things will really cause the plants to come up too soon or too fast; it forces them. I have two beds that I do cover with leaves (I sort of use them as holding areas for the leaves, which might later be used for the compost).
Some things like to be uncovered early. My spring blooming bulbs and plants (like Columbine) will come up and they are translusent or off-colored because they need light/air. They are comming up now because it is time for them to do so. I was out a few days ago uncovering these things so that they will get use to the elements and be able to breathe.
There are some things I still keep covered up. They are the plants I know I am 'pushing the zone' on, or things I am not exactly sure about their hardiness.
If I see that something is up I uncover it. If not, I leave it alone.
CMK

i am missing out on nothing ... but i wont lose all the stuff i used to lose.. when i started too early ... that's all i am trying to say ...

we dont plant year around .. because the ground freezes solid usually 1/1 thru 3/15 or so ...

there is no slack in that scenario ...

anyway .... keep up the good debates ... even if you are wrong... lol .. just kidding .... we are both right ... but i think we are not quite arguing the same thing ...

perhaps we should have started by defining 'cleaning up the garden' .... i read that to mean removing insulating mulch which can cause problems ...

perhaps you interpret it other ways ...

whatever... if they cant learn something on this debate.. they are hopeless anyway ... lol ... and if they learned anything.. on your thoughts or mine.. then we succeeded .. eh ..

truce out... ken

Hi Everyone....

Just to clarify, I'm the one that started this post. The reason for this initial question was to see if people were clearing their gardens of winter mulch, leaves, pine needles, etc., earlier this year due to the nice weather, or holding off a few weeks or so. I've been gardening a long time, but love to get new insights thru this forum. Lots of great suggestions! Thanks.

Thanks to all!

with the winter storms we in MA had this year, I could spend the next 3 weeks just collecting windfall branches and sticks and hauling them somewhere. Then I could collect the frozen and broken plastic pots and haul them somewhere. Cutting back last seasons frozen never to return stalks? Another week. Rake paths, put down some gravel, another weekend shot to h...! There! Im into safe gardening season with no effort and still plenty of clean up to last me next fall.

I get plants from many fine nurseries, and those that send greenhouse plants that are not hardened off ALWAYS state that. Theirs are the only plants that I move in and out with the tomatoes and peppers while I wait until last frost (near Memorial Day in the frost pocket I live in). But still, I've been cleaning up and moving perennials for a couple of weeks now. The plants are up and ready for spring. If they're ready, there's no reason not to get ready with them.

My first perennial is already in bloom--Geum triflorum (Prairie Smoke).

I have ventured to clean one bed, the Hummingbird Bed, next to the kitchen....where I can easily toss the mulch back over the tops if need be.

I live in the Ozarks and we have very changeable weather. It can be 80° one day, and 28° the next night! I leave all tops and leaves on the beds all winter and into late March or early April for protection. I still have the strawberries covered with straw.

Lacyvail, I need to research the Prairie Smoke. I need more early bloomers.

Interesting thread. I've been at the same garden for so many years that I guess I don't really think too hard about it anymore. For me it's knowing my garden plants, watching the 10/15 day weather forcast. Yeah, I could clean it all off in the fall but rather do it in the spring as I have found for me that I have better survival on a number of plants. I have a very mixed garden and it is cottage style.

I do things in certain years weeks ahead of my mother who is 70 miles north of me. With the exception of my butterfly bushes, russian sage and several clematis (have not decided yet where I want to trim the clemmies on a few) I'm cleaned off--cut back and raked and just finished Saturday. The Heurchera for me right now are left alone looking a bit haggard but they will cut groomed a little later. The rains are moving in, and it was just time to get the leaves up and off before they damaged the emerging tulip and daff and daylilies for this season.

Happy gardening season all, it's been a long cold winter here and I'm so very ready to play in the dirt again.

what i like best.. is the debate sans anger...

i just dont understand those peeps who seem to turn on the computer to go start fights .. whats that all about ...

it is truly amazing what we can accomplish here at GW.. when we leave the animosity behind ...

what works works .. period .. end of debate ...

ken

My wife insists that I do not clean the garden beds early enough or fast enough or GOOD enough, but I do the best I can. Al

Janice,
my verdict for zone 5 Chicago area is to not touch my mulch on until mid April. Things are bound to get in trouble if I believe first sunny warm day in March and clean off my beds. I think one problem that I have is while loose and heavily composted it is still clay soil and plants have tendency to heave out during winter. I found I have more losses if I uncover it early even if plant overwintered and shows some life. Since I have nice woodland type garden I do not bother much with making my beds pristine. Leaves fall during the fall from my oaks and I let them be. Have not found it to be a problem.

Leaves? Pine needles? a few pine cones? I love the look of these mulching my garden beds. The only stuff I think looks ugly are big sticks, roots, and scruffy dead foliage (and weird mulches like dyed orange ground up pallets or white rocks). The front gardens are a little more tidy and formal so I use mostly shredded leaves and wood chips, but the back gardens are naturalized and nature's mulch is perfect.

In the past couple years I've raked out most of the leaves and stuff, leaving a few. I wanted to expose the soil to warm up, encourage seedlings that reseeded, and uncover the bulbs a bit so they didn't get that weird yellow foliage. Woudn't you know, both Springs we had very dry spells that rivaled desert conditions and during which the state Fire Marshall banned open burning, because it was so dry. I ended up having to water in April!

Not this year, I'm leaving most of the leaves and see how that goes.

I'm not starting till mid April myself. Lets not get too hasty. I know everyone is chomping at the bit and so am I, to get out there in the garden. Why chance losing any plants? Over a couple of weeks? We have the whole summer to enjoy the fruits of our labor. The plants will survive two more weeks until mid April here. BUT, what I WILL be doing is raking leaves from the lawn, buying any amendments, fertilizers, etc that I will be needing, getting tools ready, continuing reading garden books. That way when the time does come, I will be ready and so will the plants. Luckily, my vacation at work starts Easter Sunday, so I have designated that week as the week!

kentstar

I enjoy this discussion immensely. Ken's style may take some getting used to, but he knows how to grow things. I've learned a great deal from him and Mad Gallica too. I've adopted one of her rules: If nature didn't intend it to grow here, I won't plant it. Survival of the fittest makes sense. I don't winter protect anything.

The answer to the OP question for me is: I clean up whenever the weather provides a decent weekend. Often ahead of the schedules provided by books and forums. Most of the stuff which I am told to do in April is already completed. It was 23 yesterday morning when I left for work. Maybe, when I retire, I will have more time to do it right.

I have to wholeheartedly agree with HarryShoe ... Ken's style does take some getting used to and at first I wanted to cyber-slap him, however I've grown up a bit and learned that he does have a great wealth of knowledge and I'm convinced now that he doesn't mean to offend, but rather to share information and help out. It's good practice to kind-of get past the blunt delivery and accept Ken's great wealth of experience/information. Let's face it, even the plant forum is a kind-of micro-community of many of the different kinds of people we encounter in our everyday lives and in our broader circles of people.

With that said, I think it's also helpful to consider that different people experience different plants in different zones and different micro-climates in different ways. What definitely works for us may not work for everyone, but it's always interesting to learn from other people's experiences.

Happy gardening, everyone!

;)

It is interesting to see the different interpretations of "cleaning up" and preparing for Spring.

In a perfect "gardening" world, I would only uncover the areas with an abundance of weeds coming up, and hope that a hearty frost hits and kills them!

But, back to reality. Think I'll wait a little longer to be safe.

Ken and I go back a long way on GW, both here and on a number of other forums, and I'd like to think we share a mutual respect for each other's experience and knowledge :-) I'll admit his writing style caused me discomfort intially, primarly due to lack of sentence structure and rather unsual punctuation, but I've gotten used to it. Otherwise, there is nothing wrong with being blunt and to the point and I'm guilty of that as well.

My good natured and very well-intentioned chiding of him typically is the result of my abhorrence of stating virtually anything to do with gardening in absolute terms. There are very few absolutes in this business of growing and nuturing plants and stating that one "must" or should "never" do this or that is ignoring the huge number of variables and unique situations that occur in any garden and in any climate. The extremely varied responses to this post is a perfect example of this - do what works best for you and what you are comfortable with, with the understanding that there may be other methods that are just as valid and equally successful.

Today is a picture-perfect spring day here, if still a little chilly and I would be outside in a heartbeat working on bringing my garden into shape for the season and planting a bunch of new stuff if I didn't have to be at work very shortly :-( Oh, for the freedom of being independently wealthy and not have to worry about things like mortgages and utility bills and being able to devote all my time to what I like to do best!!

Happy gardening, all!

I pay for either a fall cleanup or spring, but not both. Last year did the fall. This spring I have very little to do, just a small amount of raking and top-dressing with compost. Today is gorgeous-60's, so I plan to work on my yard all day. Oops-hubby has a doctor appointmenmt mid-day, so I'll have to stop half way through.

I do a little at a time all winter depending what it is.
I have a huge pampas I need to tackle next week- and that's one of my least favorite jobs. I should have done that months ago too.

I get out there as long as the temp is warmer than 50 degrees. I usually have so much to do in the spring since I don't have time in the fall to do cleanup. I don't think I've ever lost anything by raking up the fallen leaves too early-but I can't be sure.

Oh, boo, hiss-hiss. I may be getting 3 to 4 inches of snow tomorrow. Just as last weeks sunburn is starting to nicely tan, I'll have to wear a sweater. It won't hurt my garden any and will be gone in a flash, but still would rather have 65 and sunny.

I will join you in booing and hissing! Maybe enough of it will blow the snow away from us.

"cleaning up" is a loose term. Raking away dead foliage is one thing, but cutting back is something else entirely.

Cutting back stimulates growth. Soft, tender new growth at this time of year is asking for trouble. Cutting back now, too early, will cause many problems. I know from personal experience that cutting back clematis, butterfly bush, russian sage, etc. this early will create tender growth which will get zapped by the next freeze, and it really sets back the plant.

So clean up dead stuff, but don't cut back many vines, etc.

Cutting back stimulates growth.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement :-) With herbaceous (dieback) perennials, cutting back last season's dead growth, old flower stalks, other plant parts left for "winter interest", etc. does not encourage new growth. This is often done in late fall or winter by many gardeners who don't want to face the spring with a lot of clean-up on their schedule and it can safely be done at any time through winter if one cares to brave their weather to do so. It is a myth that leaving last season's growth in place somehow provides extra winter hardiness - it doesn't and in some situations, only provides a breeding ground for insects and diseases. Removing or cleaning it up now (or as early as you wish) can prevent problems down the road as insects and diseases typically get a very early start on their path to destruction.

Perennials that have a permanent woody framework are treated more as shrubs - in fact, their horticultural term is "subshrubs" - and they can be cut back when new growth appears. If it is apparent now, they can be safely cut back now. Generally the timing of pruning back hardy vines, like clematis or honeysuckle, is recommended to coincide with the blooming of forsythia, as is the pruning of roses. True, pruning can stimulate dormant buds (and that's the intent with these types of plants) but a flush of succulent new foliage does not appear overnight. It will emerge slowly and in response to appropriate temperatures, just the same as it would if these plants were left to their own devices.

Late spring freezes (not frosts!) can occur anywhere and in virtually all climates that can experience freezing temperatures but they are not the norm. Freezes and frosts are not the same - waiting to clean up or cut back until last frost date is just an unnecessary delay to what is for most gardeners a very busy season.

And it's interesting to note that most extension services and many nurseries located in zone 5 recommend doing "spring clean up" in late March/early April.......which is right now!!

Gardengal...regarding you reference to cutting back, I have a question related to Sweet Autumn Clemetis. Last year my SAC finally climbed up & over our Arbor. Do I cut it back down to the ground, or leave it as is? Someone mentioned that it will generate new growth on the vine and to leave it alone. I always cut my other Clemtis down to the ground each Spring (not sure of the variety...the flowers are purple and it pretty much blooms once, with a slight secondary flush in July).

Here in my zone 5 the forsythia are not blooming (not close) and the clematis does not have new growth yet, hence it's too early for cutting back. But if I cut back the clematis now, it will encourage it to put out growth soon, which will be zapped. Our last frost free date is May 31, 2 months away, so we are still likely to have hard freezes, not just light frosts. The weather is gorgeous today but I will not be cutting back my clematis yet. Snow is predicted for Monday.

I have done both, waited and cleared off until end of May or Cleared off early. Early I have had freeze damage, Later causes damage to small emerging plants when you rake off leaves.
I prefer to clean off in the beginning of April so the plants have the effect of the sunshine.

I think such nuances come with experience, once you have clems for few years, it is not difficult to figure out when it is good time to prune them.
Clems can tolerate pruning with no ill effect, even if it done late fall, providing winter is steadily cold. Right now I have plenty of buds on my clemmies coming out of the ground and they doing fine under snow and nothing going to get zapped- clemmies are perennial plants hardy to my zone, they capable to withstand few cold nights and drops below 32. What they would not be able to tolerate if the weather turn to steady cold/ lets say in teens/ for the next several weeks and clemmies are in active growth period.
Right now it is still cold enough for clems to go into active growth period even if they starting to bud and getting ready to send new shoots.
re: forthyntia- mine is budding and I am seeing first yellow on some.
re: roses- I will not touch them until mid April when I see for sure where the stems alive and where nothing is going to happen.
re: shrubs like hydrangea- they will stay until mid May when I clearly see what is dead and what growing.

Janice, sorry - I didn't mean to ignore your clematis question ;-) I've had a bit of a crazy week!

Sweet autumn clematis, Clematis terniflora, blooms late season on growth that was produced that same year. For that reason, it is considered as a pruning group 3 or a vine that is recommended to be hard pruned each spring. By hard pruning, they mean cutting back to 18 inches or to the third set of buds from the base. On older, well-established vines, you can fudge this a bit. For example, my 20 y.o. SAC has a thick woody trunk and is trained on a large iron trellis. I prune back to a level that will maintain it to an appropriate size on the trellis but not into the woody trunk, which extends about 3 feet high before it starts branching.

Pruning groups are only guidelines - you don't have prune your clemmies if you don't wish to nor do you have to prune them every year. But since group 3 clems bloom on new growth, leaving them unpruned for any length of time will result in foliage and flowers concentrated only at the top of the vine with a lot of unattractive, bare woody growth beneath. And SAC is known to reseed freely in some areas and is even considered invasive in some locations as a result. I know many growers of this vine that hard prune in fall immediately after blooming to reduce the possibility of self-seeding and unwanted or invasive seedlings.

The Clematis forum is an excellent source for additional information.

-gardengal, you are a wealth of information. I never thought about some of this before, but it makes some sense. I do have a couple of questions for you, if you don't mind?

You said: "It is a myth that leaving last season's growth in place somehow provides extra winter hardiness..."

What about the plants I have that are (supposedly) NOT hardy here or are on the cusp of hardiness? Don't you think that mulching/covering is the difference between life and death for them? Or do you think placement (i.e. "micro-climates") is the explanation for their comeback?
I think I am starting to understand (correct me if I am wrong, which I am sure you will gladly do ;-)). No amount of mulching/covering will save a plant from death by cold, because that is only topical cover and will not protect the roots of the plant. Right?
So what is the use of mulching/covering before winter? Does it even serve a purpose? Or is it, in your opinion, only to make the gardener feel better, that they did all they could to protect thier plants? Mulching does keep a plant from heaving and soil from eroding (correct?). Do you think that over the years people have forgotten the real reason for winter mulching and have come to think that mulching "protects" plants?
CMK

Christin, there's a difference between mulching and leaving the remains of a plant in place until new growth emerges in spring :-) Mulching can very well make a difference in protecting marginal plants because it does afford insulation - certainly to the soil (which will help with roots) and perhaps even to the crown if you pile mulch over the top of it. But it's not a guarantee and it may work very well on some plants and not so well on others. Leaving old stems, dried flower stalks, etc. in place just doesn't have the same effect.

I don't know of any good reasons NOT to mulch :-) It is a soil insulator, moderating against temperature extremes in both winter (heaving due to freeze/thaw) and summer. It will provide protection against erosion both from heavy rainfall and your own irrigation. It supresses weeds and if you use an organic mulch, it will add to soil texture and provide nutrients as it decomposes. It encourages beneficial organisms and can help prevent reinfecting plants with diseases by not allowing fungal spores, etc. to splash up on the foliage.

There are some drawbacks, primarily that it provides a safe/secure environment for some pests to hide or overwinter in, but those can be successfully addressed rather easily. If organic, it needs to be replaced on a fairly regular basis and if inorganic, it's a PITA to keep it tidy and debris out of it.

What is the most effective method of mulching, material to use and when to do is going to vary a lot by garden and location. And what you are trying to protect. For the most part, I never mulch over the crown of any plant for winter protection simply because my climate does not require it, although this is a very common practice in colder climates. Marginal or not fully hardy plants get any necessary protection by growing them in containers and overwintering them in safe place or sometimes, piling loose leaves around them. IME, having good drainage affords a more reliable method of protection, as the combination of cold and wet is typically the kicker, not just the cold.

So to respond to your statement that no amount of mulching/covering will save a plant from death by cold, because that is only topical cover and will not protect the roots of the plant, I'd say that is not true most of the time :-) It depends.....on the plant, the location, the soil conditions, the severity of the winter and any specific microclimate that might be involved. Mulch can and does protect against cold but it is not a guarantee, especially for marginally hardy plants.

I just deadheaded plants in the last day or so which is about when I normally do--usually when it is dry enough that I don't have to mess in mud. I leave the mulch alone for a few weeks yet and cover lightly with mulch if extra cold weather is expected (like what is in the forecast for our area early next week).

Interesting thread. I didn't see anyone from my zone 4 but will add my two cents. Anything that is marginally hardy, is mulched in the Fall and left till at least mid April. I have 80 hybrid teas and have removed the grass and leaf mulch too early many times and set them back with a hard frost. The hosta beds and tricyrtis are still mulched. Young hosta leaves can't take a hard frost. Though we use bark in all the beds, I still leave the leaves around the hostas for moisture in our hot summers since we don't have sprinkler system. The only beds really cleaned off are my day lilies and iris, the rest will wait till mid April. I, like Ken, have lost many prized plants by uncovering too early. It really depends on bed locations also. All my beds are exposed to the elements away from the house. Mary