My climber did so well that it took up half the garden and bloomed only once and I shovel-pruned it, but my bushes bloom beautifully, constantly and have perfect foliage without any problems. I can always count on it for bloom in season, like no other.

I like this topic, Michelle.

The oldest rose I grow is the old tea rose, 'Duchesse de Brabant', from 1857. I just got her today.

My second oldest rose is almost as old as the duchesse ... 'Reine des Violettes', the hybrid perpetual, from 1860.

Randy

I think my oldest variety is La Belle Sultane. Modern Roses XI lists it as around 1795.

Just a bit of trivia...

'Old Blush' was the first of the everblooming China roses to make its way to Europe. It has been known in the west for almost 250 years, but it is one of the oldest roses, having been known in China for more than 1,000 years.

It is also one of the most valuable roses known because it has passed on its China characteristics of remontancy and a darkening bloom to literally thousands of other roses.

Apothecary's Rose, Rosa Mundi, Burgundian Rose and Moschata Semi-Plena, all pre-1600. My newest is Midnight Blue (2005), which I planted over my black cat, Aidan. All the rest of the flowers in that bed are white, including Moschata, Ducher, Kronprincessen Victoria.
I just read where Herodotus, Theophrastus and Pliny all discuss rose-growing. Is your history agile enough to find exactly where, Michelle. I'm not up to re-reading Herodotus at the moment.

Apthecary (before 1500), Alba Semiplena (before 1597), Rosa Mundi, Hugonis (species, undated) and many many others.
Olga

wow,catsrose, I believe 2 of those are Roman historians, but I don't know where to start to look up their rose conversations, but that is an idea!
Here's a bit of my own trivia....Rosa Eglanteria or R.foetida or "Austrian Yellow" is one of the prettiest roses I've ever seen....the yellow is outstanding, but it has an infamous history....it is pretty much known to be the genetic source for black spot, poor baby, to be so pretty with a past....:(sigh....if you look it up on HelpmeFind....under R.foetida, there is one picture that is stunning! that yellow just jumps out at you. Kinda makes me want to order it (but keep it to itself)
Michelle

Jeri, I looked up that rose, Chi Long Han Zhu (White Pearl In Red Dragon's Mouth). Wow, what a rose. And Crested Moss is beautiful too. Duchesse de Brabant is gorgeous as well. Those are all goodies! I kinda think roses are like stars....sometimes when stargazing, I wonder about the people who looked at those stars and what they were thinking (or worrying or happy) about...Roses are like that too, in a way....people who had those same roses, but lived in a different time. I know it sounds corny, but that is what I love about history and it seems to me antique roses are ripe with history, which certainly for me is part of their charm. JMO
Michelle

Devonesis, 1838.

Bama -- That's not corny at all.

Remember, the rose you grow is actually a living piece of a rose which grew hundreds -- even a thousand years ago.
They ARE living history, and put us in physical touch with our past in a way that no antique can.
That's part of what makes them important to us.

Jeri

michelle, if you like history of roses you might be interested in jeri's post, roses in mass, about the york rose planted by abigail adams in 1788 that is still alive today.

Excluding the Chinese chinas and assuming the identifications are correct, my oldest roses are Champneys' Pink Cluster (1811 or before) and Blush Noisette (1814).

I agree with Jeri, that is not corny at all.
There have been generations that have sniffed that same fragrance from Souvenir de la Malmaison that your nose will sniff from your specimen.

Randy

Sounds really neat, len511, how can I find out where Jeri's post is?

That is an awesome way to look at it Randy....maybe, even the little emperor Napoleon, took a whiff....Wow, what a thought!!! (*.*)

A few posts UP.

Jeri

i bumped it up it's called "roses in mass"

There was a time when so many very well read posters read and posted here, whose interests were in history and roses as a part of that history or the reverse, and many remain but the discussions a few years ago were of such great intellectual and prosaic interest that I rarely looked at the gallery, because I could see the roses in the words of those who so intently described historical roses and what relationship each had to another and how colors came to be and the importance of the gallicas, damasks, albas, bourbons, teas, chinas, musks, etc., to modern roses and moreover how those roses arrived here and in our marketplace, the first hybrid tea and how it came to be, how the roses of thousands of years ago remain and how they have affected roses today.

I am not so eloquent or so well read to even delve into the discussions of those whose prose preceded my interests in OGRS, but they once posted here and many have gone. Suffice it to say, I am a hanger-on'r-roser for that reason.

Living in the south, from such valuable information I received and my own experiences related to such, I learned quickly what I could and could not grow as far as OGRs and have tried to stick with noisettes, chinas, teas and a few HMs. I also learned I no longer had to order from England and await the agriculture man often referred to as the ag nazi in some circles but he/she was also nice to me. Just had a long wait in order to move roses from secluded areas to the garden. Ah, that was long ago.

Oh, and those occasional HTs that my DH cannot live without. He's the pruner, the sprayer, the water man and pays the bills. So I get what I pray/pay for.

Other than Mutabilis of unknown age, my oldest rose is Quatre Saisons also known as R. damascena bifera and Autumn Damask, among other names. It has been known since at least the 1600's and may have been the rose that the Romans described as blooming more than once, if my history is correct. I have always wanted this rose because more than any other it has an aura of ancient times and a fragrance that transports me. There has been no other rose that has had such a potent and mysterious effect on me.

Ingrid

Rosa gallica officinalis is my oldest rose, first recorded in 1310. My double Whitsun Rose, R. majalis foecundissima was grown in 1596. Kazanlik, the damask, was grown in Bulgaria in 1689, and in 1597 Gerard describes a dark gallica believed to be Tuscany. For Maiden's Blush two years have been suggested, 1550 and 1738.

I feel like I'm getting a free education on old roses....thanks to ya'll for the wealth of information.

Patricia, are there OGRs that don't do well in the South? (north Alabama) My hubby is removing some large trees from our side garden and my first thought was*, "bingo....I could have an entire garden of nothing but OGRs" however, I would like to know if I should be a little more cautious.

Michelle

*Well, actually my first thought was, "What am I going to do with all those hostas?" :)

Well, you are farther north than I am and Phillip Oliver has grown some albas, damasks and gallicas quite successfully, but I have not had the good fortune. They need enough "chill" to "set bloom." Some years I would have buds although scant, but before they were well bloomed out, we would have a late freeze and destroy that bloom.

You are far enough north, that if I were you, I would try some of these and just see. However, the chinas, noisettes, teas and hybrid musks will do better in your zone, although if you get one of those late freezes when they are young, you might need to protect them but several very good gardeners here, Ann from T, Jean from T and the Carols from the Carolinas, Jody from T grow teas, chinas and noisettes with little worry.

I was really thinking about David Austins. Are they considered in those classes you mentioned? Also, I just bought a "Maggie" rose and a "Souvenire de la Malmaison"...think they'll be alright?
Thanks,
Michelle

The oldest rose where the exactly clone is traceable in Europe is probably Rosa Mundi. Gerard describes it well enough, and it's distinct enough, that the ID is pretty certain. The Apothecary Rose is older, but the question of seedling strains comes up.

I was really thinking about David Austins. Are they considered in those classes you mentioned?

*** No. David Austin's roses are classed as Modern Shrub Roses.

Jeri

Empress Josephine, bred in France before 1815 according to HMF. Interesting thread - ended up checking the "ages" of all the roses in my garden while I was at it!
Judith

{{gwi:239855}}

Ingrid, I enjoyed your comments on Quatre Saisons. Thanks for sharing that with us.

Randy

Maggie and Souvenir de la Malmaison should do great for you. I had a Maggie that was slow to grow and another that was a leaper, so if yours is slow, don't despair; it is well worth the wait and you are going to adore SDLM.

I have a Rival de Paestum rose that some say is the same rose the Greeks and Romans planted in their gardens a few centuries ago. Whether it is or isn't, I get a neat sense of history when I sniff this rose. Some one in a toga and sandals may have walked in a garden and enjoyed the same blooms I enjoy while wearing jeans and sneakers.

Here is a link that might be useful: Creative Soul

Fortun's Double Yellow; Old Blush, Mutabilis

catsrose asked about Herodotus: "So the brothers came to another part of Macedonia and settled near the place called the garden of Midas son of Gordias, where roses grow of themselves, each bearing sixty petals and of surpassing fragrance." (Bk 8, Ch. 138) -- ca. 480 BC

Pliny discusses the "twelve varieties" of roses in Bk 21, Ch. 10, of his Natural History -- 1st cent. AD. Some have speculated that some of the varieties correspond to rosa gallica, centifolia, etc. Some of his advice:

"All roses are improved by being pruned and cauterized; transplanting, too, makes them grow, like the vine, all the better, and with the greatest rapidity. The slips are cut some four fingers in length or more, and are planted immediately after the setting of the Vergiliæ; then, while the west winds are prevalent, they are transplanted at intervals of a foot, the earth being frequently turned up about them.

"Persons whose object it is to grow early roses, make a hole a foot in width about the root, and pour warm water into it, at the period when the buds are beginning to put forth."

(Apothecary's Rose, R. Alba Semi-Plena, and Autumn Damask are my oldest roses.)

Mike

A woman I admire is Jiang Entien, who was known as Madame Rose In China. I read about her in Hazel le Rougetel's book "A Heritage of Roses." Madame Rose did a lot of work in the 1950's cultivating and taking care of more than 300 varieties "of rare roses from abroad and other plants of China from an aged overseas Chinese rose lover when he died." She "did much to reinstate the rose in China."

I don't have this one yet but a rose whose history I wonder about is Tipsy Imperial Concubine, "as translated from the Chinese." Brought to the US by le Rougetel she says it was given to her by the son of Jiang Entien. it may be very ancient. I would love to know.

I think my oldest, is Cramoisi Superieur, 1832, a seedling of Slater's Crimson China, 1792.

I also have the found rose Spice, which may be Hume's blush scented tea, brought from China in 1810 and bred ??

great thread!

I would think the species roses are the oldest- ???? B.C.

Well Michelle if you are looking for something really, really old it must be Rosa x richardii, known commonly as the 'Holy Rose of Abyssinia' or Rosa Sancta. I grow that rose in my frontyard. Dated to at least 150 A.D.

In 1888 famous English archaeologist Sir Flinders Petrie, while excavating tombs in Upper Egypt, found the remains of rose garlands that had been used as a funeral wreath in the second century A.D. He identified the rose as Rosa x richardii, a cross of Rosa gallica and Rosa phoenicia known commonly as the 'Holy Rose of Abyssinia', or 'St. John's Rose'. The petals, though shriveled, had retained their pink color and, when soaked in water, were restored to a nearly lifelike state. Other researchers have found paintings of roses on the wall of the tomb of Thutmose IV, who died in the fourteenth century B.C. References to the rose have been deciphered in hieroglyphics.

bamabutterfly, I am in Huntsville and grow Madame Plantier (1835). It is an alba that does well for me; one of the few, I think, that does well in the south. Or that's what I read, anyway. Very fragrant and one that I look forward to as it is a once bloomer.

Duchesse, Slater's is another possibly ancient Chinese export, introduced to Europe in 1792, or thereabouts. It's one of the 4 original stud chinas Graham Stuart Thomas wrote about.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Graham Stuart Thomas Rose Book

rosyone, thanks for the link to the GST book; I only have one of his books and would like to add some to my collection. I'd read about the 4 studs in other places too.

I also read on HMF that it is "thought" that Spice, the Bermuda found rose, "is" Hume's blush scented tea, one of the 4. Fun to think about and Spice is a wonderful rose.

Thanks again for the link!

Cupshaped, thanks for the info. I had to look up St. John's rose and the parents HMF listed. May I ask what book(s) the info came from - I'd like to read it!

hey duchess nalabama...I'm south of you on Smith Lake. I ordered Mme Plantier one time and they must have run out of them, cause they sent a substitute (:P)....but I have heard that it is absolutely stunning.
Michelle

I've got most of those listed above including lots of species that are "old as time".
Above someone said they didn't know where to begin to search.
Easy answer:
go to google books advanced search and put in the authors name and "roses" in the first line.
An example, linked below has all the references to the word "roses" written by Pliny.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pliny roses

Madame Hardy, 1832, and I have a Rosa Mundi coming in about 3-4 weeks.

Mike,
Thank you for the references! I was into ancient history long before I was into roses and read both H and P, but the references to roses made no impression at the time. I am still very fond of H; he has an almost childlike sense of wonder. And I am thinking that, in our attempts to be organic, it might be good to reread Pliny. Chemicals weren't an option for him.

Thank you Randy. Your intense and passionate feeling about the beautiful Reine de Violettes suggests to me that you are a kindred spirit.

Patricia43, please do not shortchange yourself when it comes to eloquence and knowledge. I have not been fortunate enough to know those individuals who were here before I joined this forum last summer. But I will say of those who are left there are a good number who can still teach, inspire and instruct. You were one of the first to reach out to me with advice, and seeing pictures of your wonderful garden made me realize what was possible, and your encouragement made me believe in myself. One could not ask for more. Moreover, threads such as these make us want to educate ourselves more, and then pass on our knowledge to others. It is a never-ending process that benefits us all. As someone once said (as best as I can remember) "A mind that has been stretched can never again go back to its original dimensions".

Ingrid

Just read something from Paul Barden where he says preserved wreaths of Rosa X richardii in Egypt were the oldest record of a current rose species.

Here is a link that might be useful: Paul Barden Rose LInk

This is an interesting thread. I am planning to photograph some of my roses and mount them with a little history paragraph. DW has actually requested I frame and hang some of my garden photos, so this can all be blamed on her.

I wish I had more old roses. Souvenir de la Malmaison and Rose de Rescht are probably my oldest.

The Gallica I grow is Gloire de France. I know nothing of its history. My Alba is Mdm. Plantier which I believe is a more recent hybrid introduction. I don't think Rotesmeer has been around that long either.

Thankyou Ingrid for that inspiring message...I truly believe that one of the main ways anyone acquires an appreciation for something, is through traditions and knowledge passed on from one to another. As I wrote on my page, my grandmother was my inspiration. She really loved to be out in the garden. She knew so much about plants (and life) and the time I spent with her inspired me so much, as have all of the wonderful posts from everyone.

thanks,
Michelle

Rose history choices: I still have the monster Alba SemiPlena that I planted next to the Apothecary's Rose, long removed since ASP was trying to eat it alive. I think those are the roses of York/Lancaster War Fame. In which case the victorious white rose is fitting, if I have my Tudor dynastic history right, but it has been a while.
Personal history - I have a piece of a rugosa hybrid that survived all the rose cane borer tragedy a few years ago.
We all think it is probably Hansa, introduced in the early 1900's. The original for me came from a sucker in my mother's back yard, and hers came from the door yard at my father's parents' farm. Town records first mention the farm in my grandfather's name in 1915, when my dad was 2. My dad's older siblings all describe the rose being there as far back as they could remember. My grandmother had very few ornamentals - her annual effort was to plant petunias in the holes of concrete blocks lining the edge of the sidewalk. There was a mock orange bush, a lilac by the hencoop, and that rose bush. Nothing else "for pretty". She had a good friend, a farmwife up the road, that I remember visiting with her, and that woman had her homemade lawn chairs - benches really - in the middle of a riotous backyard of flowers. I like to think that my grandmother's rose might have been a gift from that neighbor. My grandparents were two of a community of truck gardeners who supplied the Springfield Mass area until post WW II interstates and children who didn't want to farm ended it. So it was a pretty intense plant-focused area, with several of the families now in the fourth generation who are focusing on a few types of produce (vineripened tomatoes, fresh corn, pickyour own berry operations)and mostly ornamental horticulture. Most of them are married to people with "real jobs" that bring benefits and cash flow...
Anyway, back to the rose - I was devastated when I thought I had lost it five years ago. My original sucker, planted in 1987, had become a thicket, from which I had moved just one sucker that sprung up in the grass and looked just too confident to mow over. That baby was tucked in by the giant Alba, next to a chunk of granite that marked the edge of the driveway, where it was forgotten. You know where this is going - yup, the giant thicket of rugosa dead and gone. But the year after the Cane Borer Scourge was a memory, and I had cut down and removed all the evidence from the thicket as well as several other rugosa hybrid victims, guess who came peeking up - from the other side of the granite! Yup. It is growing kind of weirdly sideways, but has blossomed for the last two years. So I am waiting for the first strong sucker over there, and I am going to give it a Prime Spot by my back door. Gotta love those rugosas.

This is a fun thread. Bama Butterfly, have you checked with Jason at Petals from the Past? That is where I got mine.

Just for your spring viewing, here is my version of a blue rose.

{{gwi:237278}}

Thanks for posting...Its Beautiful! (what is it?) It almost looks like a blue verbena, but I know its not. My neighbor goes to Petals from the Past all the time, but I've never been there. I just went out strolling around in the yard....spring is like a 2nd Christmas to me....I don't know what it is about seeing all those buds w/so much promise of blooms to come, but its a welcome sight!! (*.*)

Here's some more trivia/history....Although much more recent history, but I was reading that the Duchess de Brabant, or the Comtesse de LaBarthe (1857) was the rose that Teddy Roosevelt liked so much he wore a fresh bud in his lapel each day. So I thought, if he wore one every day, I wonder if I could find a picture of him with it....sure enough, I think I have. If you go to this website...http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/life/biopictures.htm and look at the 16th picture down on this list, I really think that looks just like the picture of the rose in his lapel. I couldn't copy the picture due to copyright...but it sure looks like the Duchess de Brabant to me!! I guess this is a good winter activity when your bored! lol
And after you've leafed through the umpteen zillion plant catalogs!! :)

Michelle

That's because it was his mother's favorite, of all of the roses in her garden. He loved the rose, because it reminded him of her.

Jeri

Excluding the undated roses in my garden, seven sisters is my oldest - 1817. The most recent introduction is Thanks to Sue.

Interesting post.

Kathy